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A Secret War, Strange New Wounds, and Silence From the Pentagon (article)
- Thread starter TexasBama
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Crazy that it sounds like the US military has done little research as to what these forces are doing to the bodies of our soldiers.
Men have been firing hundreds of thousands of rounds of artillery ammo for a long time.
Or the guys on the receiving end.
These guys (the ones that survived) just went home and got on with their lives.
Marine comes home, gets separated for misconduct and a BCD and then says, "I was damaged."
Civilians have no idea how many times a soldiers coming home from a deployment has to say "No, thanks. I'm fine" to get through the psych screenings. You have to decline help over, and over, and over. If you are not fine, just say so, and they will get you a care plan. Easy peasy.
I have been to a bunch of combat zones and the only side effect I experienced was a desire to choke out folks who write articles like this one.
But I am sane, and I do not act on that desire.
Or the guys on the receiving end.
These guys (the ones that survived) just went home and got on with their lives.
Marine comes home, gets separated for misconduct and a BCD and then says, "I was damaged."
Civilians have no idea how many times a soldiers coming home from a deployment has to say "No, thanks. I'm fine" to get through the psych screenings. You have to decline help over, and over, and over. If you are not fine, just say so, and they will get you a care plan. Easy peasy.
I have been to a bunch of combat zones and the only side effect I experienced was a desire to choke out folks who write articles like this one.
But I am sane, and I do not act on that desire.
It looks like a good part of the article came from this USMC report
I don’t know. If you read the whole article it offered microscopic evidence in mice of brain damage from one blast of C-4.
It sounds plausible to me. I also didn’t take away that this was a knock on the marines.
You certainly have more experience than most here, but I cannot be so quick to dismiss the article. I agree with TB, it sounds a lot like CTE.
I get that, but it would seem that there would have been a lot of this in the years 1919-1970 and 1946-2000 because there would have been a lot of CTE injuries.
I am skeptical because the subjects have been discharged (or are still in the service) and stand to make some money if they can convince a journalist of the validity of their claims. The Marine Corps do not control the medical coverage afford to Marines. The Navy does.
Worth looking into, I suppose, but not taking at face value the assertions of a former Marine with a BCD.
The loudest explosions I was near were firing LAW rockets and especially the AT-4. Those explosions were on my right shoulder.
I understand your skepticism.
My father had issues with hallucinations. The first that I am aware of happened when he was about 60 years old. In 1946 (maybe 1947) Dad was a sailor on the Fall River, the flagship in the Bikini Islands fleet, where two atomic bombs were tested. It’s probably unrelated, but I can’t help but wonder if the blasts had something to do with the hallucinations.
The us military has traditionally not wanted to admit it might harm soldiers or to treat them when they are harmed (in this way). The military does not have a great track record, despite efforts by many to change the culture.
Historically, "shell shocked" soldiers were executed, dishonorably discharged, and denied medical care and pensions after service for "cowardice " or "malingering". It took until the 1950s for PTSD to enter the lexicon. Five decades after Vietnam the military is still not properly dealing with all Agent Orange exposures and the illnesses caused by it. Example after example could be given.
Evidence is strong that repeated smaller injuries cause brain damage just as much as single larger injuries, even when there is no obvious injury.
I hope it doesn't take decades for the military to finally be forced to admit reality, but if past is prologue then it likely will - and even then the response will be anemic and inadequate.
Historically, "shell shocked" soldiers were executed, dishonorably discharged, and denied medical care and pensions after service for "cowardice " or "malingering". It took until the 1950s for PTSD to enter the lexicon. Five decades after Vietnam the military is still not properly dealing with all Agent Orange exposures and the illnesses caused by it. Example after example could be given.
Evidence is strong that repeated smaller injuries cause brain damage just as much as single larger injuries, even when there is no obvious injury.
I hope it doesn't take decades for the military to finally be forced to admit reality, but if past is prologue then it likely will - and even then the response will be anemic and inadequate.
I have a visceral reaction to two things found in this story.
1. "Journalists" who dig a micron deep into an issue, find a controversy (because they dug a micron deep), and then tout the "controversy. 60 Minutes made a career out of this.
2. Stories that portray veterans as insane volcanoes, just waiting to go off, with no agency or personal responsibility.
Could there be something to this? Sure. It is up to the soldier to seek medical help. When the soldier says, "Nope, I'm fine," 20 times, the docs are probably going to assume he's fine.
I actually am fine. My time in combat zones were the best times of my life. It focuses the mind. I do not regret it and love the guys I served with.
That said, war sucks and should never be engaged in for light and transient reasons.
1. "Journalists" who dig a micron deep into an issue, find a controversy (because they dug a micron deep), and then tout the "controversy. 60 Minutes made a career out of this.
2. Stories that portray veterans as insane volcanoes, just waiting to go off, with no agency or personal responsibility.
Could there be something to this? Sure. It is up to the soldier to seek medical help. When the soldier says, "Nope, I'm fine," 20 times, the docs are probably going to assume he's fine.
I actually am fine. My time in combat zones were the best times of my life. It focuses the mind. I do not regret it and love the guys I served with.
That said, war sucks and should never be engaged in for light and transient reasons.
from the article. many of them sought medical attention to no avail
——-
Instead, in case after case, the military treated the crews’ combat injuries as routine psychiatric disorders, if they treated them at all. Troops were told they had attention deficit disorder or depression. Many were given potent psychotropic drugs that made it hard to function and failed to provide much relief.
Others who started acting strangely after the deployments were simply dismissed as problems, punished for misconduct and forced out of the military in punitive ways that cut them off from the veterans’ health care benefits that they now desperately need.
——-
Instead, in case after case, the military treated the crews’ combat injuries as routine psychiatric disorders, if they treated them at all. Troops were told they had attention deficit disorder or depression. Many were given potent psychotropic drugs that made it hard to function and failed to provide much relief.
Others who started acting strangely after the deployments were simply dismissed as problems, punished for misconduct and forced out of the military in punitive ways that cut them off from the veterans’ health care benefits that they now desperately need.
The Marine Corps has regulations to ensure that Marines who break the rules because of P.T.S.D. or brain injuries are not punished for their missteps if their condition makes them unfit for duty. But records show that the Marine Corps decided Sergeant Ortiz had no qualifying injuries.
In 2021, he was forced out for willful misconduct and given an other-than-honorable discharge that cut him off from access to therapy, medication, disability payments and other support intended for wounded veterans.
In 2021, he was forced out for willful misconduct and given an other-than-honorable discharge that cut him off from access to therapy, medication, disability payments and other support intended for wounded veterans.
My dad lost most of his hearing in WWII. He trained Air Corp gunners.
I don't know anything about war, other than what little I've read over the years. Those who have served - even if they didn't see combat - likely all have more experience with explosives than I do (outside of shooting some tannerite now and then I've no experience beyond firearms).
That said, I do know what acoustic energy can do and at repeated high levels it can be devastating. I get being cautious when something flies in the face of empirical evidence, but I find it very plausible that very high peak SPLs can do irreversible damage to brain tissue if it's repeated enough. No doubt at all.
The only questions is whether or not these shockwaves are high enough SPL to do the damage.
My guess would be "hell yes, they're easily loud enough".
That said, I do know what acoustic energy can do and at repeated high levels it can be devastating. I get being cautious when something flies in the face of empirical evidence, but I find it very plausible that very high peak SPLs can do irreversible damage to brain tissue if it's repeated enough. No doubt at all.
The only questions is whether or not these shockwaves are high enough SPL to do the damage.
My guess would be "hell yes, they're easily loud enough".
Some have never served in the military so I would take this with a grain of salt.
A Bad Conduct Discharge (BCD) is not easy to get. Your screw-up has to be pretty aggravated.
I separated lots of soldiers for administrative and disciplinary reasons. Few of them got BCDs.
The folks characterizing discharged as BCDs get no benefit for characterizing a discharge as a BCD. ("Hey, guys, if you characterize this discharge as 'Bad Conduct Discharge' the USMC will pay you a bonus." That never happens. What they do care about is maintaining the good order and discipline of the service and their particular unit.)
On the other hand, a soldier trying to get his BCD changed to a "General Discharge, under less than honorable conditions"* stands to make a significant amount of money if he succeeds in getting the upgrade. Convincing a "journalist" that he has been unfairly treated might go a long way to getting that upgrade.
I do not know anything about Ortiz's case. Nobody on this board does. The folks who were charged with reviewing his case and characterizing his discharge, without fear or favor, decided a BCD was warranted.
While he was still in uniform before his aggravated misconduct, Ortiz could have utilized the "open door policy" (most senior leaders have an "open door policy" meaning the lowliest private can get an interview and air grievances), contacted the Inspector General, or contacted his congressman. Any of those would have elevated his case to senior leader level, and senior leaders would have asked, "Why is SGT Ortiz having such difficulty getting the health care he needs? Please investigate and get back to me within 48 hours."
* General Discharge under less than Honorable Conditions is the step above BCD.
A Bad Conduct Discharge (BCD) is not easy to get. Your screw-up has to be pretty aggravated.
I separated lots of soldiers for administrative and disciplinary reasons. Few of them got BCDs.
The folks characterizing discharged as BCDs get no benefit for characterizing a discharge as a BCD. ("Hey, guys, if you characterize this discharge as 'Bad Conduct Discharge' the USMC will pay you a bonus." That never happens. What they do care about is maintaining the good order and discipline of the service and their particular unit.)
On the other hand, a soldier trying to get his BCD changed to a "General Discharge, under less than honorable conditions"* stands to make a significant amount of money if he succeeds in getting the upgrade. Convincing a "journalist" that he has been unfairly treated might go a long way to getting that upgrade.
I do not know anything about Ortiz's case. Nobody on this board does. The folks who were charged with reviewing his case and characterizing his discharge, without fear or favor, decided a BCD was warranted.
While he was still in uniform before his aggravated misconduct, Ortiz could have utilized the "open door policy" (most senior leaders have an "open door policy" meaning the lowliest private can get an interview and air grievances), contacted the Inspector General, or contacted his congressman. Any of those would have elevated his case to senior leader level, and senior leaders would have asked, "Why is SGT Ortiz having such difficulty getting the health care he needs? Please investigate and get back to me within 48 hours."
* General Discharge under less than Honorable Conditions is the step above BCD.
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