Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

Tidewater

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Dedications over Time of Union Monuments in Five States


By way of explanation. We have all seen the SPLC diagram plotting the dedication of Confederate monuments and events like the founding of "the Invisible Empire" of the KKK, lynchings, etc. This is useful is correlation equaled causation. As a friend of mine said, "If correlation equaled causation, we would have more respect for sociology than we do."
Fortunately, there is a "control group": Union monuments. Out of curiosity, I went to see if someone had tallied Union Civil War monuments. I found web sites from Ohio, Indiana, Massachusetts Connecticut (two New England states, and two midwestern states). Later, because I drove through Maine this past summer and they have some excellent monuments, I added that state as well. This brought the tally to 370 monuments. I graphed when they were dedicated, and the chart above was the result.
So what do I make of this?
1. The peak in Union Civil War monument dedication was the silver anniversary 1886-1890. Lots of war nostalgia going on in this period: veterans' reunions and the publication of war memoirs.
2. The period of the second highest activity was 1902-1911. A 20-year-old in 1860 would be approaching the end of his three-score and ten" years and if the community wanted to express gratitude to him while he was still alive to appreciate it, this decade was the last chance. Additionally, the Spanish-American War had rekindled martial fervor and patriotism.

Southern communities did not experience the 25-year anniversary peak (the economy in the South was still a shambles in the 1880s), although Virginia managed to erect monuments in Alexandria, Richmond, Staunton and Manassas, but had recovered by 1900 so this peak was experienced on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line.

Two last comments.
1. I predict that as the sample size is increased, the same pattern (peaks in 1886-1890 and 1902-1911) will remain.
2. The extent that the monuments address the causes for which these soldiers fought, three themes arise. They fought for (a) the Union (no surprise, but without addressing why a political union including members who wish to no longer be members is something worth killing for) (b) the Constitution (sic), and (c) "that government of the people by the people, and for the people" (sic).

None of which should be surprising. We erect monument to peoples' virtues, not their failings. As Indiana Governor Oliver Morton said, “Let us honor the dead, cherish the living, and preserve in mortal memory the deeds and virtues of all, as an inspiration for countless generations to come.”
 
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92tide

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Re: Dedications over Time of Union Monuments in Five States

So the judge thinks local communities know what is best for them rather than big government making a one size fits all decision for everybody.




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that's not what the judge said at all. he is actually saying the exact opposite

A ruling issued late Monday by Jefferson County Circuit Judge Michael Graffeo says a 2017 state law barring the removal or alteration of historical monuments violates the free speech rights of local communities.
 

Crimson1967

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Re: Dedications over Time of Union Monuments in Five States

that's not what the judge said at all. he is actually saying the exact opposite
How is it not? He is giving local communities the right to decide if they want a certain statue in their town instead of the state telling them they can’t.


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92tide

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Re: Dedications over Time of Union Monuments in Five States

How is it not? He is giving local communities the right to decide if they want a certain statue in their town instead of the state telling them they can’t.


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you are correct, i completely mis-read your comment. sorry 'bout that.
 

MattinBama

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So the judge thinks local communities know what is best for them rather than big government making a one size fits all decision for everybody.
that's not what the judge said at all. he is actually saying the exact opposite
How is it not? He is giving local communities the right to decide if they want a certain statue in their town instead of the state telling them they can’t.
I think 92 may have read your post incorrectly the same way that I seemingly did.

On first reading I took it as a "big government judge stepping on local people" condemnation of the judge argument that pops up a lot.

Edit - 92 beat me to it.
 

Crimson1967

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No problem, guys. Communicating in a written forum isn’t always easy.

Someone said in a comment on this article on Facebook that they wanted to know when MLK statues were coming down. I said that now they can if that’s what the city wants.

The statues don’t really bother me. But I understand why they bother others. If a city doesn’t want them, they have the right to take them down. Same with Jeff Davis High School. I’m not going to forget the Civil War if I don’t see a statue.


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92tide

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No problem, guys. Communicating in a written forum isn’t always easy.

Someone said in a comment on this article on Facebook that they wanted to know when MLK statues were coming down. I said that now they can if that’s what the city wants.

The statues don’t really bother me. But I understand why they bother others. If a city doesn’t want them, they have the right to take them down. Same with Jeff Davis High School. I’m not going to forget the Civil War if I don’t see a statue.


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i just hope like hell we eventually end up with something like this here

 

Tidewater

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Re: Dedications over Time of Union Monuments in Five States

that's not what the judge said at all. he is actually saying the exact opposite
I believe that the corporate entity called Birmingham was created by the Alabama legislature. Being a creature of the legislature, restricting its powers is not beyond the pale.

As for "corporate free speech" rights, that seems like a problematic concept. My view of Lincoln's legacy is that the people do not have the right to restrict the powers of the general government and that government does have the power to violently punish any people who assert that right. Yet, there is a temple to the god-emperor on the mall in the federal district, so it seems that my corporate free speech rights are being violated by being forced to support such a monument.
Of course, nobody who erected the Lincoln Memorial said that they were erecting it because they were celebrating the power of the general government to kill any people insubordinate enough to tell that government what it could and could not do. Quite the opposite. The walls are covered with platitudes like "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" not perishing from the earth, etc. Still, I have my views, and the existence of that monument is in defiance of my views, so I am forced to support the expression of views I hold repugnant. I just have to deal with it, or avert my eyes.
 

92tide

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Re: Dedications over Time of Union Monuments in Five States

I believe that the corporate entity called Birmingham was created by the Alabama legislature. Being a creature of the legislature, restricting its powers is not beyond the pale.

As for "corporate free speech" rights, that seems like a problematic concept. My view of Lincoln's legacy is that the people do not have the right to restrict the powers of the general government and that government does have the power to violently punish any people who assert that right. Yet, there is a temple to the god-emperor on the mall in the federal district, so it seems that my corporate free speech rights are being violated by being forced to support such a monument.
Of course, nobody who erected the Lincoln Memorial said that they were erecting it because they were celebrating the power of the general government to kill any people insubordinate enough to tell that government what it could and could not do. Quite the opposite. The walls are covered with platitudes like "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" not perishing from the earth, etc. Still, I have my views, and the existence of that monument is in defiance of my views, so I am forced to support the expression of views I hold repugnant. I just have to deal with it, or avert my eyes.
not only is your cause lost, it is being rubbed in your face. i imagine that is quite tough to live with. my deepest sympathies go out to you.
 

92tide

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Re: Dedications over Time of Union Monuments in Five States

Confederate Ave. is gone. Will other rebel-named roads meet same fate?

good riddance

Hundreds of people are expected to march down the avenue formerly known as Confederate on Saturday morning to celebrate its new name, United.

The march, during the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday weekend, caps a years-long battle to change the contentious name of a major street that runs through racially mixed neighborhoods on the city’s south side. Organizers of the march expect hundreds of people to participate, including congregants from 24 churches as well as residents of the surrounding communities of Grant Park and Ormewood Park.
 

Tidewater

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Re: Dedications over Time of Union Monuments in Five States

not only is your cause lost, it is being rubbed in your face. i imagine that is quite tough to live with. my deepest sympathies go out to you.
Thanks.
As long as I believe in the right of the people to govern themselves and in a constitution that substantively limits the powers of the government it created, I will honor the service of Confederate veterans.

For what it's worth, here is a link to the text of Judge Maffeo's ruling.
 
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92tide

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Re: Dedications over Time of Union Monuments in Five States

Thanks.
As long as I believe in the right of the people to govern themselves and in a constitution that substantively limits the powers of the government it created, I will honor the service of Confederate veterans.

For what it's worth, here is a link to the text of Judge Maffeo's ruling.
yeah, the confederates were fighting to make sure the slaves would not be allowed to govern themselves and for a constitution that would support that. but go ahead and honor away.
 
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Crimson1967

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Posting in honor and memory of the brave Germans who died for their country. I mean, they didn’t all kill Jews. Some of them may have been Trump’s cousins, unless bone spurs run in the family.


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BamaInMo1

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Re: Dedications over Time of Union Monuments in Five States



Posting in honor and memory of the brave Germans who died for their country. I mean, they didn’t all kill Jews. Some of them may have been Trump’s cousins, unless bone spurs run in the family.


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yeah, the confederates were fighting to make sure the slaves would not be allowed to govern themselves and for a constitution that would support that. but go ahead and honor away.
Some people will always try to add 2+2 and try their best to get 5 out of it. If y'all knew history just half as much as Tidewater does...…………. But Alas, Liberals are always right even if totally wrong.
 

Bamaro

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Re: Dedications over Time of Union Monuments in Five States

Some people will always try to add 2+2 and try their best to get 5 out of it. If y'all knew history just half as much as Tidewater does...…………. But Alas, Liberals are always right even if totally wrong.
Like the inner party (1984)
 

92tide

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Re: Dedications over Time of Union Monuments in Five States

too bad i don't know history i guess or i would understand the inherent glory and honor of the noble cause of allowing white slaveholders to govern themselves.

Constitution of the Confederate States of America

Section 2.

1. The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states, and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any state of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property: and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.

3. No slave or other person held to service or labor in any state or territory of the Confederate States, under the laws thereof, escaping or lawfully carried into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor: but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such slave belongs, or to whom such service or labor may be due.

Section 3.

3. The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several states; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form states to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory, the institution of negro slavery as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress, and by the territorial government: and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories, shall have the right to take to such territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the states or territories of the Confederate states.
 
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Tidewater

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Re: Dedications over Time of Union Monuments in Five States

too bad i don't know history i guess or i would understand the inherent glory and honor of the noble cause of allowing white slaveholders to govern themselves.

Constitution of the Confederate States of America
Well, you do not know history and you cherry pick facts to support your predetermined conclusions.
The Confederate Constitution of March 1861 also contained these provisions:
* Art. I, Sec. 9: The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same. (The United States Constitution made outlawing the transatlantic slave trade optional, and inhibiting that trade was expressly forbidden prior to 1808. The Confederate constitution made its suppression mandatory on Congress.)
* Art. I, Sec. 8: No bounties shall be granted from the Treasury; nor shall any duties or taxes on importations from foreign nations be laid to promote or foster any branch of industry; and all duties, imposts, and excises shall be uniform throughout the Confederate States. (In other words, corporate welfare was forbidden. If protecting slavery was all the Confederacy was about, why on earth would they put such an article in their constitution?)
* Art. I, Sec 9: (9) Congress shall appropriate no money from the Treasury except by a vote of two-thirds of both Houses, taken by yeas and nays, unless it be asked and estimated for by some one of the heads of departments and submitted to Congress by the President; or for the purpose of paying its own expenses and contingencies; or for the payment of claims against the Confederate States ... (In other words, congressional log-rolling was forbidden. This provision had nothing to do with slavery one way or another.)
* Art. 1, Sec. 8: The expenses of the Post Office Department, after the 1st day of March in the year of our Lord eighteen hundred and sixty-three, shall be paid out of its own revenues. (In other words, this provision prevented fiscal abuse by congressmen of the franking privilege, which also has nothing to do with slavery one way or another.).

Looking at households (which were recorded in the U.S. census), 30.8% of households in the states that commonly define the Confederacy were slaveholding households. Why would the 69.2% fight for such a country? Because they believed that a Republican administration would not only turn a blind eye to violent antislavery action, but would support and protect those intent on inciting and partaking in a slave rebellion that would consume men, women and children.
Louisiana resident Sarah Wadley wrote in her diary:
Sarah Wadley said:
"The Abolitionists sowed the seeds of dissension and insurrection among us, those seeds are fast ripening. ... A blood harvest seems impending. [The abolitionists have] burnt our homesteads, killed our citizens, and incited our servants to poison us. ... I shudder to contemplate a civil war, [but] better [by] far for us would be civil war than this dreadful incubus which hangs over us now, this continual wrangling and bitter malediction with which we are persecuted.”
Mississippi Senator Albert G. Brown, in a speech in Crystal Springs, Miss. in September 1860 said some southerners hoped “a returning sense of justice will induce the northern people to forbear” from the wrongs northerners had inflicted on the people of the southern states since Harper's Ferry. Brown was not hopeful.
A. G. Brown said:
Not so my friends. They will never forbear. They hate us now, and teach their children in their schools and churches to hate our children. You cannot long submit if you will. The John Brown raid, the burning in Texas, the stealthy tread of abolitionists among us, tell the tale. History is experience teaching by example. Take care that the history of San Domingo be not your history. [In San Domingo, emancipation had been followed by] the burning of houses, the murder of men, the butchery of children, the fiendish and worse than hellish outrages of women. ... Take care that the same scenes be not enacted here.” [The planters in San Domingo] died amid the groans and shrieks of their own families, or fled the country, lighted by the conflagration of their own dwellings. [For those who advised waiting for an overt act by the Republicans before resisting, Brown had one more warning.] You may imagine that when the worst comes to worst, you will take up arms and defend your right. So thought the planters of San Domingo. … Disunion is a fearful thing, but emancipation, … was worse. [Better to] leave the Union in the open face of day, than be lighted from it at midnight by the incendiary’s torch.”
(“Senator Brown at Crystal Springs,” Macon (Ga.) Weekly Telegraph, September 20, 1860, p. 2, col. 5-6.)

But whatever, man. Go ahead, hate to your heart's content. Hate hard. Hate constantly. Hate with all your heart. No skin off my nose.
 

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