Link: Dan Wetzel: cfb plus one isn't perfect

TideFan in AU

Hall of Fame
I am shocked beyond belief that you would say that you and I have argued for years over this topic.:wink: Of course we are both right. I watch fewer and fewer bowl games each year, but what others do is up to them. This is my opinion only, but I do believe that 35 bowl games with 6-6 teams waters down the significance of getting a bowl bid and eventually some will fold due entirely to lack of attendance and the ever present lack of revenue. Until then let everyone enjoy as much or as little of the bowl fest as they want.
Still friends?
Of course we are! This would be a boring place to hang out if we all agreed on everything.:) Truth be told, 35 bowl games probably is excessive, and I do see your point. I guess I just love CFB so much that I guess I overlook that fact to be able to see more games. There was probably no one in country happier than me when CFB went to a 12 game schedule. A lot of that falls back on my lack of interest in other sports. Another thing for me is that the kids playing get at bowl game experience. I know Krazy and other people look at as a participation trophy, but you know its got to be blast for the kids getting to experience it. In the last few years we to see Vandy, Rutgers, and SMU get to go to their bowls in many years and I thought it was pretty cool. With 10 or so bowls, many players/teams would never get the opportunity.
 

KrAzY3

Hall of Fame
Jan 18, 2006
10,966
5,480
187
45
kraizy.art
I've probably read the vast majority of your posts on the subject
My condolences
I've probably read the vast majority of your posts on the subject, I just don't agree with some of what you "explained". :) You have a tendency to state your opinion as fact sometime
I try to qualify things when I get the chance, but I guess part of it is I think numbers can be interpreted and usually have a literal meaning. I understand though, that if I look at something and go, "this says this", you might completely disagree. I remember a theological discussion with my sister once, she asked me "is that really what you want to believe?" and I was just amazed that she thought I had a choice. I can't help but believe what I believe, but I have always been open to seeing things differently. I've mentioned it before but once upon a time I was in favor of a playoff.
football is and always has been too top heavy for the picture to be truly clear at the top. There's normally 2 or 3 very good teams and everybody else is a ways behind. Taking out the UAB's and Toledo's will not change that in any way.
I think the numbers tell me otherwise :) I did go over some of this before, but I think it's relevant to your saying UAB and Toledo have no impact.

D1-A was formed in 1978, and the scholarship limit was reduced to 95. The initial limits were put into place in 1973 and the limit was 105. I don't think the 105 limit really changed things much, the the 95 limit did force parity. For instance, I saw a study that says Washington's record with unlimited or 105 scholarships was 50% and 51% respective and with 95 was 76%. I think it gave certain programs a leg up, and made a move to D1 less daunting. But, the creation of D2 in 1978 made the most immediate impact. The 60s saw 11 teams as split national champions by major selectors. It's not coincidence that Alabama fans usually have something to say about some 1960 Alabama teams. Prior to the D1 split, the 1970s had already seen 7 teams as split national champions by major selectors. From 1979-1989 we did not see a single split national champion by major selectors.

I interpret this to mean that once the riff raff was kicked out, and before they found their way back in via the scholarship limits, we had a great deal of clarity regarding the post season picture. But, the next round of limits started in 1992 (ending in 1994). This was a sounding call for second rate programs. I'm pretty sure they started lining up prior to 1992 to take advantage of these new limits. Likewise, it is my opinion that the forced parity that the 95 scholarship limits imparted, allowed for the rise of several programs that otherwise never would have, or did accomplish much. This has an impact on the split national championships of the 1990s which led to the BCS. Think of it as a salary cap, they limited the spending by some schools and in doing so forced parity, which logically would lead to more confusion regarding who was best.

I do not thing the impact ends there though. Prior to the FBS/FCS there were instances of an undefeated team not being recognized by national selectors. It happened due to the fact that you had some complete jokes as programs, playing complete jokes of schedules. But, after D1-A was formed, you didn't have a single undefeated go uncrowned by all selectors until the late 1990s. This coincides almost perfectly with the 85 scholarship limit. 1994 was the first year to have this limit, Tulane in 1998 was the first meaningless undefeated in decades, followed by Marshall, and joined by Utah and Boise St. Boise St. joined the FBS in 1996, two years after the introduction of the 85 scholarship limits. I don't find these things to be coincidences, I find them a direct result of lowering the standards.

We're going to have 124 teams with more coming constantly. The impact is obvious in my mind. From 1978-1993 (the creation of D1-A to the final 85 scholarship limit) we saw 11 undefeated teams. 1994-2011 gave us 22 teams. This is a massive difference and hard to ignore.

Why does it matter how many undefeated teams, FBS teams, conferences, etc... that there are? Why does it matter what the scholarship limit is? Well, the forced parity that the scholarship limits and general NCAA policy has done is muddied the water. If you have 80 women in a room, it will be easier to select the prettiest than if you're in a room with 120. Yes, sometimes it might be clear but when it's not, it will be easier to select from less. Same with the top football team. The less teams there were, the easier. Subsequently, the less forced parity you had, the clearer the picture. When Utah, Boise St., etc... were irrelevant as football programs, you had an easier time interpreting results as well.

In 1992 Marshall was the FCS champ (I mention this because as a child I thought it a good idea for the champ of that playoff to play the D1 champ, which was Alabama). In 1999 they went undefeated in the FBS, playing the 111th ranked schedule. Now, no one paid any attention to that. But, when Boise St. played the 90th ranked schedule in 2006, and went undefeated we heard a fair bit about that.

Auburn's undefeated 2003 season, they played against 3 teams that do not belong in the FBS (one isn't). Utah, TCU, Boise St., they've all been able to benefit from soft schedules and yet they have become part of the national title and BCS discussion. Logically, it's very simple. If every team has to play a strong schedule, it's much easier to tell who is actually good. If parity is not forced, it will be easier to tell who is actually great. If there are not too many teams, it will be easier to tell who is the best.

So, how does Toledo impact things? They played Marshall in 1998. They played Miami and Ohio St. a few times. Teams like that can and do have an impact, because they impact team's schedules, and results. They impact SoS, wins and losses. All these teams are getting in the way, their conferences are getting in the way, and they do in my mind have a negative impact because they do muddy the post season picture. You can argue otherwise, but as there become more and more programs like this, it will become harder to tell the deserving from the undeserving. And, we'll have undefeated teams looking at a +1 from the outside and hearing cries for a larger playoff. I'll blame it on Toledo and UAB.
 
Last edited:

TideFan in AU

Hall of Fame
My condolences

I try to qualify things when I get the chance, but I guess part of it is I think numbers can be interpreted and usually have a literal meaning. I understand though, that if I look at something and go, "this says this", you might completely disagree. I remember a theological discussion with my sister once, she asked me "is that really what you want to believe?" and I was just amazed that she thought I had a choice. I can't help but believe what I believe, but I have always been open to seeing things differently. I've mentioned it before but once upon a time I was in favor of a playoff.

I think the numbers tell me otherwise :) I did go over some of this before, but I think it's relevant to your saying UAB and Toledo have no impact.

D1-A was formed in 1978, and the scholarship limit was reduced to 95. The initial limits were put into place in 1973 and the limit was 105. I don't think the 105 limit really changed things much, the the 95 limit did force parity. For instance, I saw a study that says Washington's record with unlimited or 105 scholarships was 50% and 51% respective and with 95 was 76%. I think it gave certain programs a leg up, and made a move to D1 less daunting. But, the creation of D2 in 1978 made the most immediate impact. The 60s saw 11 teams as split national champions by major selectors. It's not coincidence that Alabama fans usually have something to say about some 1960 Alabama teams. Prior to the D1 split, the 1970s had already seen 7 teams as split national champions by major selectors. From 1979-1989 we did not see a single split national champion by major selectors.

I interpret this to mean that once the riff raff was kicked out, and before they found their way back in via the scholarship limits, we had a great deal of clarity regarding the post season picture. But, the next round of limits started in 1992 (ending in 1994). This was a sounding call for second rate programs. I'm pretty sure they started lining up prior to 1992 to take advantage of these new limits. Likewise, it is my opinion that the forced parity that the 95 scholarship limits imparted, allowed for the rise of several programs that otherwise never would have, or did accomplish much. This has an impact on the split national championships of the 1990s which led to the BCS. Think of it as a salary cap, they limited the spending by some schools and in doing so forced parity, which logically would lead to more confusion regarding who was best.

I do not thing the impact ends there though. Prior to the FBS/FCS there were instances of an undefeated team not being recognized by national selectors. It happened due to the fact that you had some complete jokes as programs, playing complete jokes of schedules. But, after D1-A was formed, you didn't have a single undefeated go uncrowned by all selectors until the late 1990s. This coincides almost perfectly with the 85 scholarship limit. 1994 was the first year to have this limit, Tulane in 1998 was the first meaningless undefeated in decades, followed by Marshall, and joined by Utah and Boise St. Boise St. joined the FBS in 1996, two years after the introduction of the 85 scholarship limits. I don't find these things to be coincidences, I find them a direct result of lowering the standards.

We're going to have 124 teams with more coming constantly. The impact is obvious in my mind. From 1978-1993 (the creation of D1-A to the final 85 scholarship limit) we saw 11 undefeated teams. 1994-2011 gave us 22 teams. This is a massive difference and hard to ignore.

Why does it matter how many undefeated teams, FBS teams, conferences, etc... that there are? Why does it matter what the scholarship limit is? Well, the forced parity that the scholarship limits and general NCAA policy has done is muddied the water. If you have 80 women in a room, it will be easier to select the prettiest than if you're in a room with 120. Yes, sometimes it might be clear but when it's not, it will be easier to select from less. Same with the top football team. The less teams there were, the easier. Subsequently, the less forced parity you had, the clearer the picture. When Utah, Boise St., etc... were irrelevant as football programs, you had an easier time interpreting results as well.

In 1992 Marshall was the FCS champ (I mention this because as a child I thought it a good idea for the champ of that playoff to play the D1 champ, which was Alabama). In 1999 they went undefeated in the FBS, playing the 111th ranked schedule. Now, no one paid any attention to that. But, when Boise St. played the 90th ranked schedule in 2006, and went undefeated we heard a fair bit about that.

Auburn's undefeated 2003 season, they played against 3 teams that do not belong in the FBS (one isn't). Utah, TCU, Boise St., they've all been able to benefit from soft schedules and yet they have become part of the national title and BCS discussion. Logically, it's very simple. If every team has to play a strong schedule, it's much easier to tell who is actually good. If parity is not forced, it will be easier to tell who is actually great. If there are not too many teams, it will be easier to tell who is the best.

So, how does Toledo impact things? They played Marshall in 1998. They played Miami and Ohio St. a few times. Teams like that can and do have an impact, because they impact team's schedules, and results. They impact SoS, wins and losses. All these teams are getting in the way, their conferences are getting in the way, and they do in my mind have a negative impact because they do muddy the post season picture. You can argue otherwise, but as there become more and more programs like this, it will become harder to tell the deserving from the undeserving. And, we'll have undefeated teams looking at a +1 from the outside and hearing cries for a larger playoff. I'll blame it on Toledo and UAB.

Actually, Colorado and Georgia Tech split in 1990 and Washington and Miami split in 1991, but the fact still remains that there were far less split titles in those years. I do agree that there are way too many teams that don't belong in FBS, but I'm not sure they will be forced out at the point. I also share your fear that the number of playoff teams will try to be increased. My hope is that the presidents of the schools will never let go of the bowl system, and if that is the case, the +1 is the only system that will realistically work with the bowls.
A lot of people have faith in the current system to get it right, but we are very lucky to have played for the NC last year. It was OU instead of OSU that was left with 1 loss, we would have been in the Sugar Bowl playing K State. If that had happened, a lot more Bama fans would leading +1 charge.
 

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
38,229
33,323
287
55
A lot of people have faith in the current system to get it right, but we are very lucky to have played for the NC last year. It was OU instead of OSU that was left with 1 loss, we would have been in the Sugar Bowl playing K State. If that had happened, a lot more Bama fans would leading +1 charge.
Now how many times have I said this same thing?

Every Tide fan better warm up to the fact that the ONLY reason we got a shot at the title was NOT because we were "the best team" (although we were) and not for any reason other than
the alternative was Oklahoma STATE. Once again - had it been OKLAHOMA who pounded the Cowboys, 41-10 (or whatever it was) in the last game of the season, LSU would be sitting
at home looking at gold. OU has already gotten into at least two title games they had no business playing in (2003, 2008) along with winning a couple of national titles when they
were on probation in the 1970s. Let's not delude ourselves that the BCS got this right because it's the BCS. It's only because of who the alternative actually was.

And yes - had OU lost to Iowa State it still wouldn't matter. And had their only loss been to Texas Tech it wouldn't have mattered, either.
 

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
38,229
33,323
287
55
Part of my problem with some of your argumentation is your repeated tendency to ignore inconvenient facts that reorient the argument. This post gives a good example:


I try to qualify things when I get the chance, but I guess part of it is I think numbers can be interpreted and usually have a literal meaning. I understand though, that if I look at something and go, "this says this", you might completely disagree. I remember a theological discussion with my sister once, she asked me "is that really what you want to believe?" and I was just amazed that she thought I had a choice. I can't help but believe what I believe, but I have always been open to seeing things differently. I've mentioned it before but once upon a time I was in favor of a playoff.

I think the numbers tell me otherwise :) I did go over some of this before, but I think it's relevant to your saying UAB and Toledo have no impact.

D1-A was formed in 1978, and the scholarship limit was reduced to 95. The initial limits were put into place in 1973 and the limit was 105. I don't think the 105 limit really changed things much, the the 95 limit did force parity. For instance, I saw a study that says Washington's record with unlimited or 105 scholarships was 50% and 51% respective and with 95 was 76%. I think it gave certain programs a leg up, and made a move to D1 less daunting. But, the creation of D2 in 1978 made the most immediate impact. The 60s saw 11 teams as split national champions by major selectors. It's not coincidence that Alabama fans usually have something to say about some 1960 Alabama teams. Prior to the D1 split, the 1970s had already seen 7 teams as split national champions by major selectors. From 1979-1989 we did not see a single split national champion by major selectors.

I interpret this to mean that once the riff raff was kicked out, and before they found their way back in via the scholarship limits, we had a great deal of clarity regarding the post season picture. But, the next round of limits started in 1992 (ending in 1994). This was a sounding call for second rate programs. I'm pretty sure they started lining up prior to 1992 to take advantage of these new limits. Likewise, it is my opinion that the forced parity that the 95 scholarship limits imparted, allowed for the rise of several programs that otherwise never would have, or did accomplish much. This has an impact on the split national championships of the 1990s which led to the BCS. Think of it as a salary cap, they limited the spending by some schools and in doing so forced parity, which logically would lead to more confusion regarding who was best.

I do not thing the impact ends there though. Prior to the FBS/FCS there were instances of an undefeated team not being recognized by national selectors. It happened due to the fact that you had some complete jokes as programs, playing complete jokes of schedules. But, after D1-A was formed, you didn't have a single undefeated go uncrowned by all selectors until the late 1990s. This coincides almost perfectly with the 85 scholarship limit. 1994 was the first year to have this limit, Tulane in 1998 was the first meaningless undefeated in decades, followed by Marshall, and joined by Utah and Boise St. Boise St. joined the FBS in 1996, two years after the introduction of the 85 scholarship limits. I don't find these things to be coincidences, I find them a direct result of lowering the standards.
What you have at this point is a correlation perhaps due to cause. That issue can be debated. I could point out just as easily that you have more undefeated teams because
the BCS has folks who figured out that if you win your conference championship (Big XII or SEC) then you're playing for it all. So why schedule anybody decent OOC and take
a chance on losing? Furthermore, the schools you name who have gone unbeaten - Tulane, Boise, Utah - how many BIG NAME folks will schedule them very often? I still recall
when Tulane and LSU played every year.

Consequently, there MAY be merit to your argument but I would dispute its accuracy. I concede the point as possible perhaps probable but there could be other reasons as well.

In 1992 Marshall was the FCS champ (I mention this because as a child I thought it a good idea for the champ of that playoff to play the D1 champ, which was Alabama). In 1999 they went undefeated in the FBS, playing the 111th ranked schedule. Now, no one paid any attention to that.
Mostly because they lost to Tennessee the year before. And btw, everybody had heard of Chad Pennington and before him Randy Moss.

Now if your point is nobody argued they deserved a shot at the title that's true. I will note, however, for the record that "The Sports Reporters" were unanimous in
saying Tulane in 1998 should have gotten some first place votes - lest you want to say nobody argued for them. Nobody important? Well, I agree.


But, when Boise St. played the 90th ranked schedule in 2006, and went undefeated we heard a fair bit about that.

THIS is what I'm talking about.

WHY did we hear a lot about that? BECAUSE BOISE STATE BEAT OKLAHOMA IN THE FIESTA BOWL!!!

That's why. If they had lost like Hawaii did to Georgia then you wouldn't even remember it. And it became a cry for "they could hang with the big names." Now
that's overstated in light of the fact that was the worst OU team in years and the Sooners have shown they have no peer when it comes to choking in bowl
games lately. The theory, however, was that if they were SO BAD then the game shouldn't have been close. And in all seriousness it shouldn't have.

How many All-Americans does OU get compared to Boise? 50-1?

Auburn's undefeated 2003 season, they played against 3 teams that do not belong in the FBS (one isn't).
Now, I know that you mean 2004 and that's fine. However, why is it you NEVER bring up LSU's 2003 OOC?

Louisiana-Monroe
Arizona (2-10)
Western Illinois
La Tech

Now how in the world that's any BETTER than Auburn's 2004 OOC I simply cannot fathom. Here's theirs:

Louisiana-Monroe (just like LSU)
Louisiana Tech (just like LSU)
The Citadel

So LSU played ONE EXTRA GAME and it was a 2-10 mediocrity. Oh, and they also LOST a game by 2 TDs to
a four-loss Florida squad. AT HOME!!!!

You're correct that Auburn's OOC in 2004 was terrible - but it wasn't any worse than LSU's in 2003. What hurt Auburn
in 2004 was a lot of what's wrong with the BCS - LSU started at number fifteen. Based on what? "Well, this is what
we think." And then everyone in front of them lost. Auburn started at 17, dropped to 18 after a 31-point win, and then
had to hope someone in front of them lost.



Utah, TCU, Boise St., they've all been able to benefit from soft schedules and yet they have become part of the national title and BCS discussion.
Yeah, but you're ignoring WHY:

a) Utah smoked Alabama in the Sugar Bowl
b) Boise State edged OU then beat Oregon on the road and VT and UGA in Atlanta
c) TCU beat Wisconsin in the Rose Bowl

If the gap between those teams was as big as you're suggesting then MAYBE ONE of those should have happened. And we can give all the
excuses we want about the 2009 Sugar Bowl, but it will never change the fact we lost and lost badly. Lost in a game we never really got
going.


Logically, it's very simple. If every team has to play a strong schedule, it's much easier to tell who is actually good. If parity is not forced, it will be easier to tell who is actually great. If there are not too many teams, it will be easier to tell who is the best.
We agree here.

So, how does Toledo impact things? They played Marshall in 1998. They played Miami and Ohio St. a few times. Teams like that can and do have an impact, because they impact team's schedules, and results. They impact SoS, wins and losses. All these teams are getting in the way, their conferences are getting in the way, and they do in my mind have a negative impact because they do muddy the post season picture. You can argue otherwise, but as there become more and more programs like this, it will become harder to tell the deserving from the undeserving. And, we'll have undefeated teams looking at a +1 from the outside and hearing cries for a larger playoff. I'll blame it on Toledo and UAB.
You could blame it instead on the bozoes who scheduled those morons looking to pick up a cheap win.
 

RTRforever14

BamaNation Citizen
Mar 29, 2012
81
0
0
go to 4 super conferences with 16 to 18 teams, 8 division winners will then play the conference championship (Dec. 1st), that would take you to 4 which should be played around the 22th of DECEMBER, the championship would be on January 5th (a Saturday).... I hate the Monday championship format.