Do we need to re-think NATO?

Bazza

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Interested on your opinions if we need to re-think our relationship with NATO.

Trump brought the subject up.....says we are paying more than we should compared to other countries.

Is it time for Europe to foot more of the bill?
 

crimsonaudio

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I believe NATO is one of the reasons we've enjoyed The Long Peace - when a country realizes that attacking one means all come to their defense, the risk:reward ratio takes on a very different look...
 

Bazza

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I believe NATO is one of the reasons we've enjoyed The Long Peace - when a country realizes that attacking one means all come to their defense, the risk:reward ratio takes on a very different look...

No doubt.....which is why IMHO we should continue to support it.

I wonder though if it is set up to help with terrorism attacks, which seem to be our biggest problem right now.
 

Tidewater

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No doubt.....which is why IMHO we should continue to support it.

I wonder though if it is set up to help with terrorism attacks, which seem to be our biggest problem right now.
NATO today functions like a "coalition of the willing." Whenever some member proposes a policy, every nation gets one vote. Luxembourg counts as much as the US. If any member vetoes, NATO does nothing, so you get some members agreeing not to veto, but then they do not participate in whatever activity is being proposed.
In theory, if a nation invokes Article V ("An attack on one is an attack on all"), then every member state is obligated to participate. Article V has been invoked once: 911.

Last summer Pew surveyed citizens of NATO countries. If Russia attacked a NATO ally, would you support the use of military force?
Germany: No (58%), yes (38%)
France No (53%), Yes (47%)
Poland: Yes (48%), No (34%)
US: Yes (56%) No (37%)

This makes Estonians and Latvians nervous.
 
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Tidewater

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I thought France left NATO in the '60s?
France left the military structure (and kicked SHAPE (Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe) out of Paris, which is why it is now in Mons) in the 1960s because de Gaulle wanted to be free to pursue an independent foreign policy. If WW III had broken out, I'm fairly certain the French would have rejoined the military structure in short order. Even French Communists are first and foremost, Frenchmen.
NATO is still a vital organization and should continue.
I believe so too, but it can be so unwieldy and inefficient that it could improve on that score. Albania and Montenegro are NATO members now, for Pete's sake. What on earth does Albania bring to the table? Montenegro? I have nothing against Montenegrans, per se, but I don't think they brought a lot of capability with them when they joined the Alliance.
And if someone thinks having allies is a pain in the neck, he should ask the Russians how they like not having any. Everybody, and I mean everybody, has abandoned them.
 
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TIDE-HSV

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I think it's been obvious for a long time that the alliance needs serious rethinking and revamping. I think to do away with it would be suicidal in the long term for Europe and would force us back into the agonizing choice we had to make at the beginning of WWII (which was eventually forced on us). And, no, I don't think Trump is the guy to renegotiate it. Can't bankrupt out of it, if we don't like the way the deal turned out...
 

Tidewater

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I think it's been obvious for a long time that the alliance needs serious rethinking and revamping. I think to do away with it would be suicidal in the long term for Europe and would force us back into the agonizing choice we had to make at the beginning of WWII (which was eventually forced on us). And, no, I don't think Trump is the guy to renegotiate it. Can't bankrupt out of it, if we don't like the way the deal turned out...
There are all kinds countries waiting on the wings to fill the vacuum if NATO goes away (France, Russia, Germany), each country in its own way. Russia wants to carve countries off the Atlantic alliance and into a Eurasian alliance. Pragmatic eastern Europeans will stick a finger in the wind and relucantly re-orient towards Moscow to avoid getting "the Ukraine treatment."

France would love to re-assert the EU as a military alliance, one without the United States, and one in which France would carry relatively more weight. I believe that this Franco-alliance, especially if the Brits were to leave the EU & NATO, would be less pernicious than the Russian-lead one, but it would also be callously and perhaps reflexively anti-American.

A Germany-led alliance would be dangerous. Germany already dominates Europe economically. Add military dominance and the studious labor at excising fascism from the German psyche might prove to be shallow, and the dormant National Socialist in the German soul might re-emerge, probably without the death camps, but remaining hyperaggressive in its acquisitiveness.

Many in Europe will be quite interested in maintaining NATO, even though the US is routinely badmouthed. I attribute this to "Alabama thinking": people tend to be hypercritical of the top dog. In the case of Europe, however, the top dog is keeping the Russian bear at bay.

At the end of the day, the question is, does NATO further US interests. I believe it does.
 

Tidewater

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France is about the same size as Texas but has a bigger ego.
Yes, but they have one very important asset: they are not the US.
I deal with Europeans frequently and Americans do not realize the frequent and persistent hatred of the US, akin to the hatred the Crimson Tide gets from college football fans, but much more dire in its consequences. People resent the heck out of a superpower, pretty much regardless of what that superpower does.
Then Europeans, at least the rational ones, stop and think a bit and realize they are much better off having the US around. In the early days of Bosnia, Europeans alone could not stop the fighting. That took US involvement. In the face of a resurgent Russia with expansionist tendencies, only the US can really face down the Russians. And the rational ones (meaning not the fringe leftists) know that.
 

mittman

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Yes, but they have one very important asset: they are not the US.
I deal with Europeans frequently and Americans do not realize the frequent and persistent hatred of the US, akin to the hatred the Crimson Tide gets from college football fans, but much more dire in its consequences. People resent the heck out of a superpower, pretty much regardless of what that superpower does.
Then Europeans, at least the rational ones, stop and think a bit and realize they are much better off having the US around. In the early days of Bosnia, Europeans alone could not stop the fighting. That took US involvement. In the face of a resurgent Russia with expansionist tendencies, only the US can really face down the Russians. And the rational ones (meaning not the fringe leftists) know that.
I listened in on a very interesting conversation between some American college students and a group of mostly European exchange students on this topic. It was surprisingly amiable given the age group and topic. The general consensus among the Europeans was that they hated the American influence and thumb. However, since they were unwilling to pay enough to defend themselves they would just have to put up with it. The general consensus among the Americans was that we were all spending too much.

Sitting quietly on the sidelines one asked me what I thought. I really didn't have a good answer. All I could say was that if we are going to have true allies, we have to have agreements and structures to support our mutual interests. It isn't ever going to be perfectly comfortable, but it is better than going it alone.
 

Tidewater

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you realize I hope that this chart doesn't show anything associated with the topic of "who funds NATO" right?
NATO Funding.

"The military budget for 2016 is €1.16 billion," which for Allied Command Transformation (Norfolk, VA), Allied Command Operations (Mons, Belgium), Joint Force Command (Brunssum, Netherlands), Joint Force Command (Naples, Italy), Joint Warfare Center (Norway), Joint Force Training Center (Poland), ain't that much. If I'm reading this right, the US share is 22% of that or $290 million. What is that, four times the Obama total vacation costs?
 

Tidewater

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It needs to be steam-lined and refocused to dealing with non-nation state terror cells. The main threat to Europe right now is from jihadists, not Russia. Having said that, don't forget Russia...
Niall Ferguson: We face a three-headed monster.

The world faces three distinct threats: an epidemic of jihadist violence, most of it in the Middle East, North Africa, and South Asia; uncontrolled mass migration from these places to Europe; and the emergence of a “fifth column” of Islamic extremists within nearly all Western societies, including the United States. We must take care to distinguish each component of this terrifying trifecta.
But you are correct, do not forget about Russia.
Cerberus is the alligator nearest the canoe just now.
 

81usaf92

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It needs to be steam-lined and refocused to dealing with non-nation state terror cells. The main threat to Europe right now is from jihadists, not Russia. Having said that, don't forget Russia...
Well you are talking about the same people that feared Stalin's internal purges spreading in to countries far away from Russia over Hitler's blatant attempt to burry the punitive corpse of Versailles that the Europeans themselves imposed on them. Europeans always fear the Russians over anyone else, I don't know if its the Russian way of life, the strength of their leaders,or how the Russian military is built better than practically every military in Europe without the Star Spangled Banner on it. Russia being allies with the Persians is a little unsettling due to how we dorked up all of our relations with them and are in bed with the Saudis, but Russia knows better than going to the point of no return without being viewed as just in doing so amongst the generally passive Nato countries.
 

Tidewater

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Well you are talking about the same people that feared Stalin's internal purges spreading in to countries far away from Russia over Hitler's blatant attempt to burry the punitive corpse of Versailles that the Europeans themselves imposed on them. Europeans always fear the Russians over anyone else, I don't know if its the Russian way of life, the strength of their leaders,or how the Russian military is built better than practically every military in Europe without the Star Spangled Banner on it. Russia being allies with the Persians is a little unsettling due to how we dorked up all of our relations with them and are in bed with the Saudis, but Russia knows better than going to the point of no return without being viewed as just in doing so amongst the generally passive Nato countries.
Reading a book about Soviet disinformation right now. A pre-WW II German socialist who was imprisoned by the Nazis, and spent the immediate post-war years in East Germany.
He "escaped" to the West and worked his way up the West German bureaucracy. Nominated for a key in in the West German intelligence service (Bundesnachrichtendienst), some said, "Hang on. Not sure of his loyalties."
The German left said, "Shame on you! He is as loyal to West Germany as anybody. You can't decline his nomination just because he had the misfortune of being born in the eastern part of Germany."
He was accepted into the key intelligence position and guess what? It later turned out he was a Soviet spy, passing key info to the Soviets and East Germans about West German intelligence activities, intelligence summaries, what they knew of Soviet spies and Soviet disinformation, etc.
Who'd'a thunk it?
 

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