Genetics and evolution

Mans ability to alter and play with DNA is a good point, unfortunately we have not been doing that long enough to have created all of the creatures on the planet... which is the topic of conversation. To help prove the point I was am trying to make, let us look at some of the evidence from genetics, arranged under the four sources of variation: environment, recombination, mutation, and creation. Although it will be difficult I will try to be brief.

Environment
This refers to all of the external factors which influence a creature during its lifetime. For example, one person may have darker skin than another simply because she is exposed to more sunshine. Or another may have larger muscles because he exercises more. Such environmentally caused variations generally have no importance to the history of life, because they cease to exist when their owners die; they are not passed on. In the middle 1800s, some scientists believed that variations caused by the environment could be inherited. Charles Darwin accepted this fallacy, and it no doubt made it easier for him to believe that one creature could change into another. He then explained the origin of the giraffe’s long neck in part through ‘the inherited effects of the increased use of parts’ In seasons of limited food supply, Darwin reasoned, giraffes would stretch their necks for the high leaves, supposedly resulting in longer necks being passed on to their offspring.

Recombination
This involves shuffling the genes and is the reason that children resemble their parents very closely but are not exactly like either one. The discovery of the principles of recombination was Mendel’s great contribution to the science of genetics. Mendel showed that while traits might be hidden for a generation they were not usually lost, and when new traits appeared it was because their genetic factors had been there all along. Recombination makes it possible for there to be limited variation within the created kinds. But it is limited because virtually all of the variations are produced by a reshuffling of the genes that are already there.
Among the creatures Darwin observed on the Galapagos islands were a group of land birds, the finches. In this single group, we can see wide variation in appearance and in lifestyle. Dawin provided an essentially correct interpretation of how the finches came to be the way they are. A few individuals were probably blown to the islands from the South American, and today’s finches are descendants of those pioneers. However, while Darwin saw the finches as an example of evolution, we can now recognize them merely as the result of recombinad, giraffes would stretch their necks for the high leaves, supposedly resulting in longer necks being passed on to their offspring.

Recombination
This involves shuffling the genes and is the reason that children resemble their parents very closely but are not exactly like either one. The discovery of the principles of recombination was Mendel’s great contribution to the science of genetics. Mendel showed that while traits might be hidden for a generation they were not usually lost, and when new traits appeared it was because their genetic factors had been there all along. Recombination makes it possible for there to be limited variation within the created kinds. But it is limited because virtually all of the variations are produced by a reshuffling of the genes that are already there.
Among the creatures Darwin observed on the Galapagos islands were a group of land birds, the finches. In this single group, we can see wide variation in appearance and in lifestyle. Dawin provided an essentially correct interpretation of how the finches came to be the way they are. A few individuals were probably blown to the islands from the South American, and today’s finches are descendants of those pioneers. However, while Darwin saw the finches as an example of evolution, we can now recognize them merely as the result of recombination within a single created kind. The pioneer finches brought with them enough genetic variability to be sorted out into the varieties we see today.

Mutation
Now to consider the third source of variation, mutation. Mutations are mistakes in the genetic copying process. Each living cell has intricate molecular machinery designed for accurately copying DNA, the genetic molecule. But as in other copying processes mistakes do occur, although not very often. Once in every 10,000–100,000 copies, a gene will contain a mistake. The cell has machinery for correcting these mistakes, but some mutations still slip through. Some have no effect at all, or produce so small a change that they have no appreciable effect on the creature.

Creation
The first three sources of variation are inadequate to account for the diversity of life we see on earth today. An essential feature of the creation model is the placement of considerable genetic variety in each created kind at the beginning. Only then can we explain the possible origin of horses, donkeys, and zebras from the same kind; of lions, tigers, and leopards from the same kind; of some 118 varieties of the domestic dog, as well as jackals, wolves and coyotes from the same kind.

Now back to work!
 
KillVols said:
Recombination
This involves shuffling the genes and is the reason that children resemble their parents very closely but are not exactly like either one. The discovery of the principles of recombination was Mendel’s great contribution to the science of genetics. Mendel showed that while traits might be hidden for a generation they were not usually lost, and when new traits appeared it was because their genetic factors had been there all along. Recombination makes it possible for there to be limited variation within the created kinds. But it is limited because virtually all of the variations are produced by a reshuffling of the genes that are already there.

If this were true, then cockroaches would only look a little different from lobsters, but taste just like them.

You can eat the land bugs if you want, but I'm sticking to their cousins.
 
bamabake said:
If you do, then you'll grasp at whatever straws are left.

Thanks for the compliment.

Well, look at it this way... the Genesis version of creation has God creating the world in six days. If you take that story literally, then you believe that it took 144 hours to create everything in the universe, and populate it with the same species we have today.

If you subscribe to the theory of evolution, then you believe that the universe was actually created in about six billion years (give or take a few hundred million), and the species we have today are descended from species that populated the earth at various times during that six billion year history.

Present company excepted... I know plenty of people who complain that evolution is "only a theory," but blindly accept Genesis as an accurate historical account.
 
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When I was a boy;
World was better spot.
What was so was so;
What was not was not.
Now I am a man;
World have changed a lot.
Some thing nearly so;
Others nearly not.
There are times I almost think;
I am not sure of what I absolutely know.

Very often find confusion
In conclusion I concluded long ago
In my head are many facts
That, as student, I have studied to procure
In my head are many facts
Of which I wish I was more certain I was sure....

There are times I also think
Nobody sure of what he absolutely know
Everybody find confusion
In conclusion he concluded long ago.
And it puzzle me to learn
That tho' a man may be in doubt of what he know
Very quickly he will fight...
He'll fight to prove that what he doesn't know is so....

But is a puzzlement.

("The King and I")
 
Piglet said:
Has anyone here actually read "The Origin of Species" or "The Descent of Man"?

yes, years ago.

Having read this board for several years, some of the posters have on occasion implicitly validated the humans-descended-from-apes part of the theory. ;)
 
TexasBama said:
yes, years ago.

Having read this board for several years, some of the posters have on occasion implicitly validated the humans-descended-from-apes part of the theory. ;)

Actually, on my days off I tend to believe that I am decended for a three-toed tree sloth............... :blush:
 
TexasBama said:
yes, years ago.

Having read this board for several years, some of the posters have on occasion implicitly validated the humans-descended-from-apes part of the theory. ;)


implicitly validated

That is the phrase I have been looking for!

You are brilliant.
 
GulfCoastTider said:
Well, look at it this way... the Genesis version of creation has God creating the world in six days. If you take that story literally, then you believe that it took 144 hours to create everything in the universe, and populate it with the same species we have today.

If you subscribe to the theory of evolution, then you believe that the universe was actually created in about six billion years (give or take a few hundred million), and the species we have today are descended from species that populated the earth at various times during that six billion year history.

Present company excepted... I know plenty of people who complain that evolution is "only a theory," but blindly accept Genesis as an accurate historical account.


Present company excepted... I know plenty of people who complain that evolution is "only a theory," but blindly accept Genesis as an accurate historical account.



Calling it a theory isnt a complaint it is a fact. Of course the world was created just like the bible said. I would call my belief in that blind however :)
 
It would be entertaining if each of us could choose which animal was our primal ancestor. Monkeys are just so...so gauche Darwinian. Personally I would prefer T-Rex, or any of the Velociraptors in "Jurassic Park." There's something deeply gravitas about descending from a roaring Cretaceous predator --- but nothing amusing about having a hairy jerk hang by his tail from your family tree.
 
Very intelligent posts here from both sides, but I tend to look at things from another angle:

Is it acceptable to believe that you will be held accountable for your actions or not? If not, then of course you will seek out alternatives to the belief that a higher power will judge you for your actions, and that there might be consequences for those actions. For some of us, if not all, that's a pretty scary thought. Life becomes more bearable with the alternative. Ever wonder why old people tend to get more religious as they age?

The part about evolution that I can appreciate is seeing a person who was once no real good to society (most of us, unfortunately) change for the better. I have found that it takes more ability than I possess to bring about that change. I can't answer for the rest of you.
 
Pachydermatous said:
It would be entertaining if each of us could choose which animal was our primal ancestor. Monkeys are just so...so gauche Darwinian. Personally I would prefer T-Rex, or any of the Velociraptors in "Jurassic Park." There's something deeply gravitas about descending from a roaring Cretaceous predator --- but nothing amusing about having a hairy jerk hang by his tail from your family tree.

How to get a lifetime ban from the board:

Stand up and say Paul W. Bryant was descended from an ape. :)
 
TexasBama said:
How to get a lifetime ban from the board:

Stand up and say Paul W. Bryant was descended from an ape. :)

However, watching the Barners' national chamionship parade, several evolutionary thoughts did cross my mind. Is it possible, right here in Alabama, we are watching evolution progress, in quick step, right before our eyes? Reverse evolution, you might say? :biggrin:
 
drsmithofga said:
Very intelligent posts here from both sides, but I tend to look at things from another angle:

Is it acceptable to believe that you will be held accountable for your actions or not? If not, then of course you will seek out alternatives to the belief that a higher power will judge you for your actions, and that there might be consequences for those actions. For some of us, if not all, that's a pretty scary thought. Life becomes more bearable with the alternative. Ever wonder why old people tend to get more religious as they age?

The part about evolution that I can appreciate is seeing a person who was once no real good to society (most of us, unfortunately) change for the better. I have found that it takes more ability than I possess to bring about that change. I can't answer for the rest of you.


If not, then of course you will seek out alternatives to the belief that a higher power will judge you for your actions, and that there might be consequences for those actions.

This is a perfectly natural way for someone that believes in evolution to see the world. As I have pointed out before, ones worldview is defined in many ways by how you think you came to be.
 
I was checking out these message boards and was really excited to see a thread on this particular subject. I agree with the idea that your worldview depends a lot on your belief in how life began. On that note, I would like to point out something about evolution that most people don’t realize. Evolution is not really a “science” at all. It is more like a religion. It’s a belief system developed to explain the origin of life without having to believe in God.

In regards to the origins of life and “evolutionary science”, it is important to note the difference between operational science and origins (historical) “science”. Operational science deals with the way the present world works, and generally concerns things that we can observe and repeatedly test. For example, we can consistently get the same undisputed temperature for the boiling point of water since we can observe and repeat the test conditions. Origins science, however, deals with how we apply observations made in the present to non-observable events in the past. This is the area where “evolutionary science” falls. Scientific observations must be interpreted when applied to past events. The supposed events of evolution occurred in the unobservable past and are therefore not capable of being proven scientifically with certainty. Creation events are also in the past. The argument between creation and evolution is not one of science vs. religion rather of the science of one religion vs. the science of another religion.

The bottom line is, both creationism and evolution are belief systems interpreting the same facts and observations according to their own predetermined beliefs. Origins cannot be explained by scientific means, because no human being was there to observe it, it cannot be repeated and it cannot be tested. The closest thing we have to a reliable observer is the divinely revealed account given to us in the Bible, a book that has been shown to be historically accurate.
 
Of course, you’re wrong on several points. First, the major one: evolution only explains how speciation occurs. Nothing more, nothing less. It makes no attempt to explain how life began. Not understanding this simple, easily verified point is one of the major fallacies of creationists.

Second, evolution has been observed and repeatedly tested. A simple check of any introductory biology book would have enlightened you.

The bottom line is that the only people in evolution denial are those with a religious or political agenda who are willing to use dishonesty to advance their views.
 
COBamaFan said:
The bottom line is that the only people in evolution denial are those with a religious or political agenda who are willing to use dishonesty to advance their views.

A more seasoned citizen of the world might have realized that this is the same thing someone on the other side would say, placing that discussion at an immediately stalemate, and therefore a waste of words. Here's some dishonesty for you: despite your books, evolution is still in the theory stage of the process, though countless thousands have spent much time trying to elevate this to law. That's a Nobel prize for certain! If you have the passion, why don't you give it a shot?
 
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