Link: Inside Alabama's auto boom - low wages, little training, crushed limbs

[TideEngineer08]

I can see that angle too, but some plants like Honda make them stay over whether you like it or not to hit a number they are happy with. That can lead people to do things they shouldn't in the first place.

Just like in my trade, we've seen non-union contractors run crews into the ground and only care about making money on a job they severely underbid. So then you have "linemen" who chances are not true linemen, getting burnt and/or dying (generally your first mistake is your last here) because they were pushed into cutting a corner and it getting caught in the aftermath having a new wife bury the bread winner, while they company blames the linemen for screwing up (but never for lack of training they never get).

Now granted that doesn't happen for every contractor nor am I saying non-union linemen are not true linemen, but it happens believe it or not.

And these days, OSHA is about worthless. They'll fine a company $500,000 then after the company appeals it's generally dropped to $500. They could care less about hurting companies in the pocketbook that are fiscally responsible. I can only think of a few cases where foremen were actually charged in deaths, that kind of got folks into line for a while but once they realized OSHA is too scared to continue, they went back to the old ways.

A friend of mine died this way a year and a half ago. Complaints had been registered multiple times with the company for lack of sufficient gear and training, namely gloves that covered the entire arm. One morning while on the job, up in the bucket, he was taking a break with a co-worker and rested his arms on the side of the bucket. His uncovered elbows made contact with the bucket, which completed the circuit with God knows how many volts. He left behind a wife and 3 children.

I see it in my line of work as well, but all that's at stake are bits and bytes on a computer. Admittedly very expensive bits and bytes, but no lives are in immediate danger.

 

[Jon]

A friend of mine died this way a year and a half ago. Complaints had been registered multiple times with the company for lack of sufficient gear and training, namely gloves that covered the entire arm. One morning while on the job, up in the bucket, he was taking a break with a co-worker and rested his arms on the side of the bucket. His uncovered elbows made contact with the bucket, which completed the circuit with God knows how many volts. He left behind a wife and 3 children.

I see it in my line of work as well, but all that's at stake are bits and bytes on a computer. Admittedly very expensive bits and bytes, but no lives are in immediate danger.

I see it in your line of work all the time, when you guys buy from me but disregard the "optional" items like DR Solutions and HA options...

then a disaster happens and it is my fault that I didn't push it harder

 

[TideEngineer08]

I see it in your line of work all the time, when you guys buy from me but disregard the "optional" items like DR Solutions and HA options...

then a disaster happens and it is my fault that I didn't push it harder

Yep. But thankfully, we don't disregard those :wink:

 

[Wilson Monroe]

did it involve hitting their foot with a sledge hammer?

Never saw that one. I did see two guys die from exposure to HF by a faulty check valve. They were supposed to be in class K chemical suits with supplied air respirators, but those take "time" to put on.

 

[Wilson Monroe]

Ok, now I get what you were asking. No, although it was considered!

 

[JBama_in_PCOLA]

My first job out of college was at MBUSI, the Mercedes Plant in Vance. It was prior to their going live and actually producing vehicles but the attention to detail and safety were quintessentially Mercedes. I never felt like it would be a problem there (and I believe this article confirms that)

One of the more interesting aspects of that job, at that time is that they hired a bunch of industry old timers from both Detroit and Germany so hanging out with those guys always involved interesting and often terrifying stories. One that has stuck with me more than 20 years later came from a guy we brought down from Detroit who was retired after 30 years from a GM Stamping facility in MI. He told a story of a of a laborer slipping into a steel stamping machine and getting his chest crushed and stuck. The paramedics came and quickly determined that as soon as they pulled the press back they were going to lose him, so rather than allowing him to die on the spot without saying goodbye to his family they drugged him and went and got his wife and parents so he could say goodbye. I've toured dozens of factories since then, selling manufacturing IT Systems around SAP early in my career and it is always top of mind when they discuss safety on the tours.

Manufacturing is a dangerous business

That story sounds like one of army origin. Wow!


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[Bamabuzzard]

as much as people like to diss unions, they serve a very needed purpose.

They do. My Dad worked for GM for 30+ years and the stories he could tell you of what management would try to get them to do if they could get away with it. Early in my dad's career at GM he was in paint. They had them in a room with nowhere near the proper ventilation, or the proper suits to be doing what they asked them to do. Fumes everywhere and they were steadily inhaling the majority of them. At 24 years old my Dad was just trying to make a living for his family and needed the paycheck. Even though he knew the conditions they had them working in weren't safe. The unions haven't been perfect and as the years have progressed, they have gotten more in bed with the company. But they have served a valuable purpose for many workers who otherwise wouldn't have a voice.

 

[Bamaro]

They do. My Dad worked for GM for 30+ years and the stories he could tell you of what management would try to get them to do if they could get away with it. Early in my dad's career at GM he was in paint. They had them in a room with nowhere near the proper ventilation, or the proper suits to be doing what they asked them to do. Fumes everywhere and they were steadily inhaling the majority of them. At 24 years old my Dad was just trying to make a living for his family and needed the paycheck. Even though he knew the conditions they had them working in weren't safe. The unions haven't been perfect and as the years have progressed, they have gotten more in bed with the company. But they have served a valuable purpose for many workers who otherwise wouldn't have a voice.

OSHA had a lot to do with improving worker conditions too. Unions tended to be primarily concerned with wages and pensions which ultimately bankrupted the companies. For the record I'm not defending the lazy management either.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

OSHA had a lot to do with improving worker conditions too. Unions tended to be primarily concerned with wages and pensions which ultimately bankrupted the companies. For the record I'm not defending the lazy management either.

Agreed. And speaking to the wages side of it. People who used to gripe and moan about assembly line workers being "over paid" should now be very, very happy. The workers who replaced those now retired "over paid" workers are making $12-$14/hour. Benefits such as retirement, insurance etc have been severely cut. They've also gone back into labor agreements for the "over paid" retired workers and have cut their retirement benefits as well, including insurance. I'm still waiting on the price of the vehicles to reflect the cost cutting.

Additional Note:

Many GM plants would employ thousands of workers who made very good wages. Those employees would take those wages and spend it in their town/city/community. Now, the GM worker who used to patron a business with a $25-$28/hour wallet now is coming in with a $12-$14/hour wallet. If he's coming in at all.

 

[Jon]

Agreed. And speaking to the wages side of it. People who used to gripe and moan about assembly line workers being "over paid" should now be very, very happy. The workers who replaced those now retired "over paid" workers are making $12-$14/hour. Benefits such as retirement, insurance etc have been severely cut. They've also gone back into labor agreements for the "over paid" retired workers and have cut their retirement benefits as well, including insurance. I'm still waiting on the price of the vehicles to reflect the cost cutting.

Additional Note:

Many GM plants would employ thousands of workers who made very good wages. Those employees would take those wages and spend it in their town/city/community. Now, the GM worker who used to patron a business with a $25-$28/hour wallet now is coming in with a $12-$14/hour wallet. If he's coming in at all.

in perspective that is going from ~ $50-56K a year to $24-28K a year. The girl in the original story was risking her life and ultimately lost it for $17,500 a year as she was trying to get to $20K

 

[Bamabuzzard]

in perspective that is going from ~ $50-56K a year to $24-28K a year. The girl in the original story was risking her life and ultimately lost it for $17,500 a year as she was trying to get to $20K

I get that. But it all falls under the same umbrella. Just differing degrees and different areas. There have been a lot of people die in assembly line plants due to management's lack of concern for the employee's safety. I chased a rabbit regarding wages. But I could tell you some stories about GM workers getting severely injured by trying to operate dangerous equipment where they weren't properly trained by management.

 

[AlexanderFan]

Agreed. And speaking to the wages side of it. People who used to gripe and moan about assembly line workers being "over paid" should now be very, very happy. The workers who replaced those now retired "over paid" workers are making $12-$14/hour. Benefits such as retirement, insurance etc have been severely cut. They've also gone back into labor agreements for the "over paid" retired workers and have cut their retirement benefits as well, including insurance. I'm still waiting on the price of the vehicles to reflect the cost cutting.

Additional Note:

Many GM plants would employ thousands of workers who made very good wages. Those employees would take those wages and spend it in their town/city/community. Now, the GM worker who used to patron a business with a $25-$28/hour wallet now is coming in with a $12-$14/hour wallet. If he's coming in at all.

This is what people fail to understand. The general public has fallen for the company's "ugly, greedy, overpaid union worker" routine, all the while management compensation has skyrocketed, common worker wages are down, and the price of goods produced has steadily increased.


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[2003TIDE]

I see it in your line of work all the time, when you guys buy from me but disregard the "optional" items like DR Solutions and HA options...

then a disaster happens and it is my fault that I didn't push it harder

DR and HA aren't as sexy as spending on security to the members of the board until events like what happened at Delta pop up as a reminder. From what I've heard involved someone being over DR and over their head at the same time.

 

[4Q Basket Case]

as much as people like to diss unions, they serve a very needed purpose.

I actually agree on this, but within limits.

What I'm really for is a fair fight. An individual against a big company isn't a fair fight, whereas a union against the company is.

Where I part ways is where you have a single union for a whole industry -- a monopsony for the economists out there.

In the 1950s and 1960s, it wasn't unusual for the UAW to strike (or threaten a strike) against just one of the "Big Three" -- GM, Ford and Chrysler -- but stay on the job at the other two. That forced the one to cave, which established the new wage base to which the other two had to agree, or face the same fate.

That's not a fair fight, either. Plus, it eventually led to a myriad of problems that bankrupted (or nearly bankrupted) all three.

My solution would be to make labor unions subject to the same anti-trust laws that the employers are. A pipe dream, I know, but my inner Don Quixote is out today.

 

[92tide]

I actually agree on this, but within limits.

What I'm really for is a fair fight. An individual against a big company isn't a fair fight, whereas a union against the company is.

Where I part ways is where you have a single union for a whole industry -- a monopsony for the economists out there.

In the 1950s and 1960s, it wasn't unusual for the UAW to strike (or threaten a strike) against just one of the "Big Three" -- GM, Ford and Chrysler -- but stay on the job at the other two. That forced the one to cave, which established the new wage base to which the other two had to agree, or face the same fate.

That's not a fair fight, either. Plus, it eventually led to a myriad of problems that bankrupted (or nearly bankrupted) all three.

My solution would be to make labor unions subject to the same anti-trust laws that the employers are. A pipe dream, I know, but my inner Don Quixote is out today.

i see what you are saying, but a lot of the blame for the big three's problems also lies with the management that designed crappy cars with cheap, poorly made parts.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

This is what people fail to understand. The general public has fallen for the company's "ugly, greedy, overpaid union worker" routine, all the while management compensation has skyrocketed, common worker wages are down, and the price of goods produced has steadily increased.


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If I'm not mistaken it was reported not that long ago the difference in compensation of the CEO of American car companies compared to the CEO of companies like Toyota, Honda etc. The compensation of management in the foreign companies weren't even close to the compensation packages of the management of the American auto makers. All the American car companies did was pad their compensation when they found ways to cut cost. Whether it be through cheaper parts or cheaper labor.

 

[4Q Basket Case]

i see what you are saying, but a lot of the blame for the big three's problems also lies with the management that designed crappy cars with cheap, poorly made parts.

We can debate who did what to whom and why until hell freezes over. The bottom line is that there's blame enough to go around.

It doesn't change the fact that everybody -- the workers, the companies, the shareholders, the buyers of the cars, and the citizens of cities dependent on auto manufacturing -- would have been better off today if there had been what I'm calling a fair fight at the negotiating table 50-60 years ago.

Keep in mind....if you have a pension, an IRA, or a 401k, you're probably at a minimum an indirect shareholder. If your pension fund, IRA, 401k or personal portfolio contains an S&P index fund, there's a 100% chance you are.

Point being, flawed though it may be, we all benefit if large corporate America does well.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

We can debate who did what to whom and why until hell freezes over. The bottom line is that there's blame enough to go around.

It doesn't change the fact that everybody -- the workers, the companies, the shareholders, the buyers of the cars, and the citizens of cities dependent on auto manufacturing -- would have been better off today if there had been what I'm calling a fair fight at the negotiating table 50-60 years ago.

Keep in mind....if you have a pension, an IRA, or a 401k, you're probably at a minimum an indirect shareholder. If your pension fund, IRA, 401k or personal portfolio contains an S&P index fund, there's a 100% chance you are.

Point being, flawed though it may be, we all benefit if large corporate America does well.

I agree, if in their "doing well" it results in prosperity of their employees as well. Because if all the monetary prosperity is held at the top 5% of the organizational chart. Then the other 95% aren't able to go out into their community and spend their money at businesses within their community. As I mentioned regarding the GM example above. A GM employee patronizing a business was doing so with a nice wage in his wallet. Now, a GM employee can only afford a fraction above the necessities compared to what they used to be able to afford. Not only does the employee feel the impact. His/her local community does to.

 

[Bamaro]

Agreed. And speaking to the wages side of it. People who used to gripe and moan about assembly line workers being "over paid" should now be very, very happy. The workers who replaced those now retired "over paid" workers are making $12-$14/hour. Benefits such as retirement, insurance etc have been severely cut. They've also gone back into labor agreements for the "over paid" retired workers and have cut their retirement benefits as well, including insurance. I'm still waiting on the price of the vehicles to reflect the cost cutting.

Additional Note:

Many GM plants would employ thousands of workers who made very good wages. Those employees would take those wages and spend it in their town/city/community. Now, the GM worker who used to patron a business with a $25-$28/hour wallet now is coming in with a $12-$14/hour wallet. If he's coming in at all.

It seems that the GM worker is grossing more than 12 - 14/hr but in this world economy it was either that or no job at all.
https://www.indeed.com/cmp/General-Motors/salaries
https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pa...bly-Line-Worker-Hourly-Pay-E279_D_KO15,35.htm

 

[Bamabuzzard]

It seems that the GM worker is grossing more than 12 - 14/hr but in this world economy it was either that or no job at all.
https://www.indeed.com/cmp/General-Motors/salaries
https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pa...bly-Line-Worker-Hourly-Pay-E279_D_KO15,35.htm

The ones in Shreveport's now closed plant were being hired in at $12-$14/hour. The guy that replaced my Dad's position when he retired knew my Dad. He told him his wage. Other workers were saying the same thing. So I'm not sure the discrepancy.

I noticed in the second link there was this:

The typical General Motors Assembly Line Worker salary is $21. Assembly Line Worker salaries at General Motors can range from $15-$31. This estimate is based upon 30 General Motors Assembly Line Worker salary report(s) provided by employees or estimated based upon statistical methods. See all Assembly Line Worker salaries to learn how this stacks up in the market.