JessN: Michigan wrap-up: Bama needs a clean break from this identity

[tusks_n_raider]

Let’s say none of Alabama's wide receivers hit the portal/draft this year. Who would be the top six wide receivers in the rotation (with all portal departures included)?

Starters:
- Williams
- Bernard
- Adams

Next 3 off the bench:
- Horton
- Hale
- Mbakwe or Scott. Maybe Law

If you are Law, Prentice, or Henderson, you should hit the portal to get playing time with a lower-tier team. It is just common sense and has nothing to do with the Alabama QB situation in 2024.

I know threads have been moving fast this week but this has been covered.

The WRs specifically left because of CKD being dishonest with them about the QB situation and what their roles in the Offense would be.

A few guys spoke up and CKD told them to work it out with Milroe.

Milroe responded by ignoring them on purpose.

I have never heard of a HC behaving like this.

I mean it could be read as 'Be a man and ya'll work this out between yourselves'

But Milroe is a petulant child so you're not going to be able to work it out like men.

Makes you wonder just how many other responsibilities CKD outsources so he doesn't have to do it.

 

[some_al_fan]

I know threads have been moving fast this week but this has been covered.

The WRs specifically left because of CKD being dishonest with them about the QB situation and what their roles in the Offense would be.

A few guys spoke up and CKD told them to work it out with Milroe.

Milroe responded by ignoring them on purpose.

I have never heard of a HC behaving like this.

I mean it could be read as 'Be a man and ya'll work this out between yourselves'

But Milroe is a petulant child so you're not going to be able to work it out like men.

Makes you wonder just how many other responsibilities CKD outsources so he doesn't have to do it.

1. Milroe is not going to be a QB next year. So whatever happened between WRs & Milroe last year is not important

2. I’ve been in the corporate world long enough to know that if a manager tells someone to “work it out” it often means that this person is unimportant. When Mbakwe threatened a portal exit, Alabama / DeBoer acted fast to bring him back.
College football is a business where HC can’t fire a player (an employee) but can force them into the portal via not caring. What you are describing looks like a case of an HC not caring about specific players. So, yes, you are correct that DeBoer did not care much about WRs who have left, but that is the same thing as was in my post, i.e. these WRs would not be getting extensive playing time in Alabama in 2025

 

[Con]

I know threads have been moving fast this week but this has been covered.

The WRs specifically left because of CKD being dishonest with them about the QB situation and what their roles in the Offense would be.

A few guys spoke up and CKD told them to work it out with Milroe.

Milroe responded by ignoring them on purpose.

I have never heard of a HC behaving like this.

I mean it could be read as 'Be a man and ya'll work this out between yourselves'

But Milroe is a petulant child so you're not going to be able to work it out like men.

Makes you wonder just how many other responsibilities CKD outsources so he doesn't have to do it.

You may remember after one of the games Milroe was being interviewed and he kept bringing up the whole “getting more receivers involved in the game” stuff. It was kind of like he remembered the conversation with these guys but like everything else he reverted back to his safety blankets. What you are saying seems to match perfectly with the whole have a talk with your QB but the QB couldn’t follow through with the talk.

 

[tusks_n_raider]

You may remember after one of the games Milroe was being interviewed and he kept bringing up the whole “getting more receivers involved in the game” stuff. It was kind of like he remembered the conversation with these guys but like everything else he reverted back to his safety blankets. What you are saying seems to match perfectly with the whole have a talk with your QB but the QB couldn’t follow through with the talk.

Well (and obviously this is jmo) but the way I read Milroe is that he knows all the right things to say as a QB whether he even believes what he's saying. He knows what to say to elicit a certain reaction.

He has A+++ Interpersonal skills as long as his emotions are in check.

But when I say he ignored the WRs I'm not meaning to say he ignored their 1 on 1 meeting or forgot their talk.

I mean in the games... He purposely only looked to RW and Germie out of petty spite for what I'm sure he perceived as the other WRs making him look bad to CKD by speaking to him first.

So a lot of the time where he's holding the ball forever it's not because no one was open (as you can see from screen shots) it was because RW and Germie were covered and by god he wasn't going to throw it to Law or Odom or anybody else for making him look bad to Coach.

Now Milroe stans will probably try to call me out on that.

Go look at the box scores from the games after Tenn. See how many catches RW and Germie have and then look at guys like Prentice, Law, Odom etc

Go back and watch the tape and look at those guys being wide open and Milroe just holding the ball.

He's Petty.

 

[some_al_fan]

I mean in the games... He purposely only looked to RW and Germie out of petty spite for what I'm sure he perceived as the other WRs making him look bad to CKD by speaking to him first.

So a lot of the time where he's holding the ball forever it's not because no one was open (as you can see from screen shots) it was because RW and Germie were covered and by god he wasn't going to throw it to Law or Odom or anybody else for making him look bad to Coach.

Now Milroe stans will probably try to call me out on that.

Go look at the box scores from the games after Tenn. See how many catches RW and Germie have and then look at guys like Prentice, Law, Odom etc

Go back and watch the tape and look at those guys being wide open and Milroe just holding the ball.

He's Petty.

I think you are trying to find malicious cause in Milroe’s pure incompetence

 

[tusks_n_raider]

I think you are trying to find malicious cause in Milroe’s pure incompetence

I think he's incompetent as a QB.

He's also highly intelligent off the field and has unstable emotions.

 

[JessN]

I know threads have been moving fast this week but this has been covered.

The WRs specifically left because of CKD being dishonest with them about the QB situation and what their roles in the Offense would be.

A few guys spoke up and CKD told them to work it out with Milroe.

Milroe responded by ignoring them on purpose.

I have never heard of a HC behaving like this.

I mean it could be read as 'Be a man and ya'll work this out between yourselves'

But Milroe is a petulant child so you're not going to be able to work it out like men.

Makes you wonder just how many other responsibilities CKD outsources so he doesn't have to do it.

I think it's a stretch to call any of our coaches "dishonest" about roles in the offense.

The timeline of events here was that as of Week 5, the betting favorite for the Heisman Trophy on the Las Vegas big board was Jalen Milroe. No one was complaining before then unless they were just being selfish about their touches. Then things disintegrated pretty quickly, especially once Alabama started facing good defensive teams consistently. However, this is not a new phenomenon; Alabama's schedule has always been backloaded like that due to how the SEC schedules its games, and in most of Saban's years our offensive metrics would dip significantly between Week 5 and Week 13 with the exception of the pre-Auburn game (or the pre-OU game as it was this year).

Rodney Orr at TiderInsider put up an eye-opening post today outlining some of the struggles Nick Sheridan and DeBoer had with Milroe and the playbook as the poor performances started to mount, to the extent that we were using as few as 10 plays out of the entire UW/Penix playbook by season's end.

As for the WRs who left, Hamilton was a misevaluation by the previous staff, Jefferson got hurt early after struggling to advance up the depth chart, Prentice had several drops and missed assignments that were costing him playing time relative to his peers, Odom (who should have been steered to TE whether he liked it or not, IMO) was complaining about touches from the outset and Henderson was an athlete who never really emerged as a receiver (plus he had ball security issues; the fact he portaled to Kansas after first looking at Troy should tell the story there). The one guy that left who I wish would have stuck it out was Law, but two different staffs tried to integrate him into the offense and had trouble doing it.

If you want to see how someone can succeed in that environment, watch Bernard. His body language over the last month gave a clear indication how he felt about Milroe but his productivity actually went up in the second half of the year. It's very possible to be fighting upstream at your job but still be productive. Law couldn't seem to do that.

More importantly, we still have 10 guys on scholarship at receiver for 2025 even if we don't add another in the portal, which I think we will, and DeBoer tends to play with 6-7 guys tops, basically the same as Saban did.

Milroe struggling =/= coaches being "dishonest." There is a question of what does a QB have to do in this offense to get benched, which I raised in the article this whole thread is about, but I don't read that as an honesty issue.

 

[tusks_n_raider]

I think it's a stretch to call any of our coaches "dishonest" about roles in the offense.

The timeline of events here was that as of Week 5, the betting favorite for the Heisman Trophy on the Las Vegas big board was Jalen Milroe. No one was complaining before then unless they were just being selfish about their touches. Then things disintegrated pretty quickly, especially once Alabama started facing good defensive teams consistently. However, this is not a new phenomenon; Alabama's schedule has always been backloaded like that due to how the SEC schedules its games, and in most of Saban's years our offensive metrics would dip significantly between Week 5 and Week 13 with the exception of the pre-Auburn game (or the pre-OU game as it was this year).

Rodney Orr at TiderInsider put up an eye-opening post today outlining some of the struggles Nick Sheridan and DeBoer had with Milroe and the playbook as the poor performances started to mount, to the extent that we were using as few as 10 plays out of the entire UW/Penix playbook by season's end.

As for the WRs who left, Hamilton was a misevaluation by the previous staff, Jefferson got hurt early after struggling to advance up the depth chart, Prentice had several drops and missed assignments that were costing him playing time relative to his peers, Odom (who should have been steered to TE whether he liked it or not, IMO) was complaining about touches from the outset and Henderson was an athlete who never really emerged as a receiver (plus he had ball security issues; the fact he portaled to Kansas after first looking at Troy should tell the story there). The one guy that left who I wish would have stuck it out was Law, but two different staffs tried to integrate him into the offense and had trouble doing it.

If you want to see how someone can succeed in that environment, watch Bernard. His body language over the last month gave a clear indication how he felt about Milroe but his productivity actually went up in the second half of the year. It's very possible to be fighting upstream at your job but still be productive. Law couldn't seem to do that.

More importantly, we still have 10 guys on scholarship at receiver for 2025 even if we don't add another in the portal, which I think we will, and DeBoer tends to play with 6-7 guys tops, basically the same as Saban did.

Milroe struggling =/= coaches being "dishonest." There is a question of what does a QB have to do in this offense to get benched, which I raised in the article this whole thread is about, but I don't read that as an honesty issue.

I appreciate the detailed response and it sheds some new light on things.

I mis-worded the bolded part.

It’s been said they the WR group were under the impression that the QB battle was legitimate and that because it was legitimate it was thought Ty would win.

So a few became even more frustrated as the season went on because of how badly Milroe was playing around the Tenn game through Nov and no change was made.

The thought was also that because Ty sprayed the ball around to multiple targets in practice that the target distribution would be more equitable across the group.

I agree with you about Germie and Law.

In Germie’s favor he’s an excellent route runner with very good hands.

Law is not as good in those two areas but to be a bit fair to him and a few other guys they were often trying to get their hands on a pass outside of their catch radius or behind them.

There seems to be miscommunication issues with players and coaches but you are right it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s purposeful dishonesty.

 

[davefrat]

I think he's incompetent as a QB.

He's also highly intelligent off the field and has unstable emotions.

I'm not sure that he's good enough to manipulate the games the way you suggest, but IF he's actually seeing the entire field and intentionally not getting the ball to open receivers, then he's not only malicious, he's also a moron, because his stock would be a lot higher if he'd completed more passes to those open receivers.

 

[gtgilbert]

I'm not sure that he's good enough to manipulate the games the way you suggest, but IF he's actually seeing the entire field and intentionally not getting the ball to open receivers, then he's not only malicious, he's also a moron, because his stock would be a lot higher if he'd completed more passes to those open receivers.

well, he doesn't actually have to see the field and know they are open and decide not to throw. He just had to decide that he was only going to look at RW and GB.

 

[davefrat]

well, he doesn't actually have to see the field and know they are open and decide not to throw. He just had to decide that he was only going to look at RW and GB.

Perhaps...seems a bit on the tin-foil hat edge for me, but I guess it's possible.

And again, that would mean he's a complete moron because by hurting them, he's hurting himself.

Maybe he's just a total moron.

 

[JDCrimson]

What is frustrating is reading these threads and a bunch of people responding as if all the challenges with Milroe, the lockerroom, and NIL is new information here at the end of the season when a bunch of us have repeatedly explained what has been going on.

And to add in this thread Grubb did not want to come over the last 2 years to coach Milroe. The lockerroom was a soup sandwich from Day 1 and the coaches had to mitigate a complete portal out when they found out that we had no viable NIL program on Day 1.

Saban had his prior staff capped at offering $25,000 in NIL and every player got the same amount from the collective. This amount when every upper tier SEC team was offering 10 times that as a starting point. It was embarrassing for the assistant coaches. This is fact.

This is why players on the team steered toward LANK. Basically Saban said if you can get more on your own then so be it.

CKD knew he could not come in and go 5-7 so he did the only thing he could do which is buy a transition from Milroe.

 

[Rocky Mtn Bob]

<snip>

Go back and watch the tape and look at those guys being wide open and Milroe just holding the ball.

He's Petty.

Nah. He just couldn't see the field, the lanes, the openings.

JM wasn't good enough to be petty.

 

[Bama9001]

What is frustrating is reading these threads and a bunch of people responding as if all the challenges with Milroe, the lockerroom, and NIL is new information here at the end of the season when a bunch of us have repeatedly explained what has been going on.

And to add in this thread Grubb did not want to come over the last 2 years to coach Milroe. The lockerroom was a soup sandwich from Day 1 and the coaches had to mitigate a complete portal out when they found out that we had no viable NIL program on Day 1.

Saban had his prior staff capped at offering $25,000 in NIL and every player got the same amount from the collective. This amount when every upper tier SEC team was offering 10 times that as a starting point. It was embarrassing for the assistant coaches. This is fact.

This is why players on the team steered toward LANK. Basically Saban said if you can get more on your own then so be it.

CKD knew he could not come in and go 5-7 so he did the only thing he could do which is buy a transition from Milroe.

Would it be fair to say, if we see more of the same next year, that we missed wildly on CKD's ability to handle this job?

Honestly, none of this makes me feel any better. CKD wasn't allowed to play the QB2 al all, so he didn't? We didn't win the SEC. We didn't make the playoffs. We lost to three very mediocre teams. What exactly did turning the team over to JM accomplish? I'd have much rather gone 5-7 with the strong feeling we were in a good spot for next year. We ended up with nothing with a very good chance we'll get more nothing next year.

 

[JDCrimson]

I never said it was a good decision to hand over the reigns to JM. But these coaches are decidely afraid of mass walkouts especially when the portal is not open for you to replace what you lose. It was a one way street out last year. If I remember correctly, we would not have been able to go to the portal until after spring practice. So who and how many would we have had on the roster for spring practice last year?

That is how absurd this whole portal situation is...

I will reiterate, Marshall had to decline a bowl invitation because their whole roster entered the portal when Huff resigned. We essentially were looking at the same situation last year. Having our roster pillaged after Saban retirement with no one to shop for until after spring practice.

Which when you think about it from this standpoint. I don't think it was CKD who made the deal with Milroe. I think the AD and Saban made the deal with Milroe so there would actually be a roster for CKD to coach. CKD wasn't hired until 10 days after Saban retired with the portal open during that window.

If CKD didn't live to the agreement, then a bunch if the same players could have transferred out after spring practice.

Would it be fair to say, if we see more of the same next year, that we missed wildly on CKD's ability to handle this job?

Honestly, none of this makes me feel any better. CKD wasn't allowed to play the QB2 al all, so he didn't? We didn't win the SEC. We didn't make the playoffs. We lost to three very mediocre teams. What exactly did turning the team over to JM accomplish? I'd have much rather gone 5-7 with the strong feeling we were in a good spot for next year. We ended up with nothing with a very good chance we'll get more nothing next year.

 

[arthurdawg]

25k per player is darned low... I wondered about this but have had several other posters here and elsewhere insist we were competitive. But I didn't feel that.

 

[REBELZED]

Well (and obviously this is jmo) but the way I read Milroe is that he knows all the right things to say as a QB whether he even believes what he's saying. He knows what to say to elicit a certain reaction.

He has A+++ Interpersonal skills as long as his emotions are in check.

But when I say he ignored the WRs I'm not meaning to say he ignored their 1 on 1 meeting or forgot their talk.

I mean in the games... He purposely only looked to RW and Germie out of petty spite for what I'm sure he perceived as the other WRs making him look bad to CKD by speaking to him first.

So a lot of the time where he's holding the ball forever it's not because no one was open (as you can see from screen shots) it was because RW and Germie were covered and by god he wasn't going to throw it to Law or Odom or anybody else for making him look bad to Coach.

Now Milroe stans will probably try to call me out on that.

Go look at the box scores from the games after Tenn. See how many catches RW and Germie have and then look at guys like Prentice, Law, Odom etc

Go back and watch the tape and look at those guys being wide open and Milroe just holding the ball.

He's Petty.

I always appreciate your input, but I think with this you are 1.) making a lot of wild assumptions and 2.) giving Milroe WAY too much credit.

This is not meant as a slight against Milroe, but if you listen to him talk and see how he interacts with people, I don't think he is smart and/or savvy enough for the mass manipulation you are suggesting.

Occam's Razor - Milroe was just not good enough at playing QB and the coaches' hands were tied by some sort of NIL agreement they may or may not have been involved with. No malicious intent, no grand conspiracy.

 

[B1GTide]

25k per player is darned low... I wondered about this but have had several other posters here and elsewhere insist we were competitive. But I didn't feel that.

Alabama is reported to have spent $16MM in 2024 NIL. Top 4-8, depending on the list that you look at

 

[UAH]

I know threads have been moving fast this week but this has been covered.

The WRs specifically left because of CKD being dishonest with them about the QB situation and what their roles in the Offense would be.

A few guys spoke up and CKD told them to work it out with Milroe.

Milroe responded by ignoring them on purpose.

I have never heard of a HC behaving like this.

I mean it could be read as 'Be a man and ya'll work this out between yourselves'

But Milroe is a petulant child so you're not going to be able to work it out like men.

Makes you wonder just how many other responsibilities CKD outsources so he doesn't have to do it.

We hear about his record in the NAIA breaking it down by year and his someway fantastic system. He is far from being the sharpest knife in the drawer. My opinion based on years and years of interviewing executives and making a ton of mistakes.

 

[MBA_99]

I think you are trying to find malicious cause in Milroe’s pure incompetence

There is no way Milroe saw open receivers and decided not to throw depending on who they were. He cannot make second reads without the cleanest of pockets. A fascinating stat would be the percentage of pass plays his helmet pivoted at all.

I hope an NFL team makes him a TE with lots of sweep runs or shovel passes or something. He is historically good running in the open field.