News Article: Obama Lifts Ban on Abortions

[TexasBama]

Jesus obviously did not know what he actually meant when he said all of that stuff. luckily there are plenty of folks to clarify those issues now

There you go.

IMO, anyone that thinks they have an unerring opinion on this, just hasn't thought about it enough.

 

[CrimsonCT]

The typical argument concerning the rape or incest exception is one that analogizes it to self-defense. The pregnancy has been forced upon her and she is entitled to defend herself from the consequences of an attack, e.g. as if someone has forcefully chained somebody else to her.

Using the other side's perspective, wouldn't the alleged "life" be just as much a victim of the rape as the woman? Self-defense would apply when repelling the attacker, but the resulting zygote itself caused no harm to the woman...

... unless you argue that pregnancy can load an undue strain and that the woman's autonomy is more important than the potential life inside her.

 

[gmart74]

a philosophy professor once put it this way- Suppose you woke up one day in a hospital and there was nothing wrong with you. However you were chained to your bed and had feeding tubes extending from you to some 30 yr old dude in a coma that you dont even know. the doctors told you that you must lay there for 9 months until he comes out of the coma. during this time you will experience massive weight gain, vomiting, constant indigestion, cramps, circulation problems, and your hormones will go out of balance.

in this situation would you lay there in bed to save the person's life or would you try to free yourself?

 

[bamanut_aj]

this won't mean anything to some of you, and that's fine.

I'm really conflicted on this topic. I would fall on the side of "only if rape or incest". But then I think, "what if I asked Jesus his opinion?", and I think I know my answer.

But still......

The strong emotions surrounding the abortion issue may lead those on both sides of the issue into the sin of self-righteousness. Jesus was greatly offended by self-righteous religious people who thought they were better than those they considered "sinners."

The Pharisees were a Jewish sect noted for their strict observance of the laws of God. Tax collectors were among the most despised people in Israel. As agents of the occupying Roman forces they often extorted excess taxes and were considered traitors to their people. That is why Jesus used a Pharisee and a tax collector to illustrate the sin of self-righteousness:

Then [Jesus] told this story to some who boasted of their virtue and scorned everyone else: "Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a proud, self-righteous Pharisee, and the other a cheating tax collector. The proud Pharisee 'prayed' this prayer: 'Thank God, I am not a sinner like everyone else, especially like that tax collector over there! For I never cheat, I don't commit adultery, I go without food twice a week, and I give to God a tenth of everything I earn.' "But the corrupt tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed, but beat upon his chest in sorrow, exclaiming, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner.' I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home forgiven! For the proud shall be humbled, but the humble shall be honored." (TLB, Luke 18:9-14)

Further, Jesus told us to eliminate the sins in our own lives rather than passing judgment or looking down on others. For if we judge other people harshly, we will, in turn, be judged harshly by God:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (NIV, Matthew 7:1-2)

Christians have a responsibility to correct matters of wrongdoing among themselves (Matthew 18:15-17), but this should always be done fairly and with compassion. We are never to take upon ourselves the task of judgment that belongs to God alone (Hebrews 10:30, Romans 14:10-13, 1 Corinthians 4:5.)

As Christians, we need to remember that we are all sinners in God's eyes (Romans 3:23), and that God loves all His children, even those who believe differently than we do (Matthew 5:43-48). We cannot afford to let our strong feelings on abortion issues blind us to Jesus' commandment to "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:36-39).


LINK

To tie these in....God said "I knew you when you were in the womb....." So while we debate whether this situation or that situation would be 'acceptable' grounds, I wonder what Jesus would say?

Of course, if God is not your authority, then the debate rages. However, if God is your authority, how do you think he would answer your question: "Lord, under what circumstances is it acceptable to abort a child?"

 

[CrimsonNan]

Please, quit with the drama. Personhood is not black or white. I took an entire graduate course on personhood (beginning and end of life issues). This is one of the blurriest lines in all of ethics. "Potential being" could incorporate anything from implantation, and possibly even before that.

For instance, here is just one well-known list of criteria that a famous theologian believes must be present for somebody to be a "person":

Link to random essay
[/LEFT]
[/LIST]

Quote:
Joseph Fletcher, Episcopalian theologian and bioethicist, argued for a list of fifteen “positive propositions” of personhood. These attributes are:

minimum intelligence
self-awareness
self-control
a sense of time
a sense of futurity
a sense of the past
the capability of relating to others
concern for others
communication
control of existence
curiosity
change and changeability
balance of rationality and feeling
idiosyncrasy
neocortical functioning.

Oh boy, I sure could have fun with this list. For instance I could say....oh never mind hehehe :biggrin::conf2::eek2:

 

[CrimsonCT]

a philosophy professor once put it this way- Suppose you woke up one day in a hospital and there was nothing wrong with you. However you were chained to your bed and had feeding tubes extending from you to some 30 yr old dude in a coma that you dont even know. the doctors told you that you must lay there for 9 months until he comes out of the coma. during this time you will experience massive weight gain, vomiting, constant indigestion, cramps, circulation problems, and your hormones will go out of balance.

in this situation would you lay there in bed to save the person's life or would you try to free yourself?

Yes, I've heard this analogy before. Since you imply your answer, why would you choose the woman's autonomy over the man's life in this instance?

 

[bamanut_aj]

a philosophy professor once put it this way- Suppose you woke up one day in a hospital and there was nothing wrong with you. However you were chained to your bed and had feeding tubes extending from you to some 30 yr old dude in a coma that you dont even know. the doctors told you that you must lay there for 9 months until he comes out of the coma. during this time you will experience massive weight gain, vomiting, constant indigestion, cramps, circulation problems, and your hormones will go out of balance.

in this situation would you lay there in bed to save the person's life or would you try to free yourself?

I get the whole "nine month" thing with the hormones, vomiting, etc. But I'm missing the parallel of whether I'd stay there to save the person's life.....If I found myself in the hospital bed, there's no indication that I had done anything to be in that situation. With pregnancy....well.....

Is this analogy supposed to be about rape?

 

[CrimsonNan]

Aren't y'all tired of this thread yet?
:beatdeadhorse5:

As I see it, there is no "good" solution when it comes to terminating vs. not terminating unwanted pregnancies. I've known women who've had abortions at all different stages of pregnancy. I haven't known a single one who wasn't adversely affected (emotionally) by her choice to abort. I've known women who decided not to abort, some of them giving the baby up and some of them keeping the baby. They too suffered in their own ways for their choices, even the women who were happy they kept the baby they thought they didn't want.

Still, most women are glad they currently have the choice, even if they regret the one they make.

It's tragic in many cases, really. But y'all go on trying to bicker each other into submission. DT_popc:

_____________________________________________________

Aren't y'all tired of this thread yet?

YES....and I started it!!! Is this like the way a football game is played these days? It can't end in a tie. They have to play until somebody wins or till hell freezes which comes first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ????? :eek2: :conf2:

 

[gmart74]

Is this analogy supposed to be about rape?

yes, but more or less any unwanted pregnancy.

i would favor the woman over the man bc i do not feel it our duty to save a life if it requires amazing effort on our part. i feel there are way too many people already populating the earth and on top of that of that entirely too many useless people populating the earth. it is time to cull the herd. i know many of you feel some kind of divine and special status for humans. while i like my own species and dont want our species to end, i do think that perhaps our vision of self importance is perhaps a little over the top.

 

[dvldog]

it is time to cull the herd.

So why don't you just step to the front of that line? I'm sure we're all right behind you.

 

[gmart74]

bc im not useless. i actually go to work. i actually pay my taxes. i dont steal from others. i dont commit crimes against other people. once you eliminate all of the people who cant quite grasp those concepts, and we still have overcrowding, then I will happily take my place in line.

of course we all know that the most useless among us will never be eliminated bc we have embraced the welfare entitlement government so it doesnt matter anyway. the herd will be culled one way or another.

 

[Tider@GW_Law]

Yes, I've heard this analogy before. Since you imply your answer, why would you choose the woman's autonomy over the man's life in this instance?

I think the Constitution clearly tips the scales in favor of a woman's autonomy/self-determination up until viability (22-24 weeks). After that, the situation becomes much more difficult.

Also, in large part to industry marketing efforts and the abomination that is "abstinence only" sex education, many young women these days are under the impression that birth control pills are nearly 100% effective regardless of how closely they follow the instructions. They also fall prey to men's insistence that they will take measures to prevent fertilization (if you catch my drift). So, it is largely ignorant to insist on putting all the blame on women whenever they become pregnant, especially very young women (As I recall, many of those putting blame on the women as irresponsible are the same ones that insisted posters lay off Palin's daughter). I could continue this point but you get that this is a very complex issue that involves religion, education, product marketing, etc.

God created us as sexual animals, however He also endowed us with a curiosity and intellect that has made the days of 10 pregnancies (if the mother survives that long) = 3 grown children a thing of the past - further complicating things is the fact that abortion was well known in the days of Christ. Theologians (outside of Catholicism) are all over the map on what it all means.

 

[bayoutider]

To tie these in....God said "I knew you when you were in the womb....." So while we debate whether this situation or that situation would be 'acceptable' grounds, I wonder what Jesus would say?

Of course, if God is not your authority, then the debate rages. However, if God is your authority, how do you think he would answer your question: "Lord, under what circumstances is it acceptable to abort a child?"

The link I provided comes from From The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church. I trust they gave this a lot more thought than many of us.

 

[TRUTIDE]

To tie these in....God said "I knew you when you were in the womb....." So while we debate whether this situation or that situation would be 'acceptable' grounds, I wonder what Jesus would say?

Of course, if God is not your authority, then the debate rages. However, if God is your authority, how do you think he would answer your question: "Lord, under what circumstances is it acceptable to abort a child?"

I think that this is a hard question. In a religious sense, abortion itself is sin (killing another life) and for the most part caused from sin. Premarital sex, adultury etc. We could even get into sex without intent of conception. Even if society looks at these actions as being more acceptable today, they are still basically sin. If we could eliminate the first sin then the second sin (abortion) would be much less commonplace. Certainly there are other instances, a married couple will abort a life they created and rape but these are certainly the exception and not the rule. In the religious sense, abortion is basically a sin to cover up another sin and this is where my argument of irresponsibility comes in. Still a hard question but in this line of thinking, I would like to think that God would find abortion acceptable in cases without the underlying sin such as the mother's health and with rape.

 

[gmart74]

ya know, all of this controversy and angst could be avoided if we all just embraced buttsex

 

[92tide]

The link I provided comes from From The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church. I trust they gave this a lot more thought than many of us.

i had heard the UMC had been infiltrated by "them"

 

[ValuJet]

ya know, all of this controversy and angst could be avoided if we all just embraced buttsex

A comment like that should always be followed up by one of these: :eek2:

 

[TRUTIDE]

ya know, all of this controversy and angst could be avoided if we all just embraced buttsex

I hope Pelosi does'nt get ahold of this idea.

 

[bamanut_aj]

The link I provided comes from From The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church. I trust they gave this a lot more thought than many of us.

and probably with less tit-for-tat.

 

[It's On A Slab]

i had heard the UMC had been infiltrated by "them"