News Article: Obama Lifts Ban on Abortions

[jthomas666]

those things seem very reasonable, at least to me.

To me as well. As some of you know, I'm an adoptive and foster parent; my daughter was left in a hospital waiting room a few hours after her birth.

Several years ago, my wife contacted the Mobile reporter whose efforts led to Alabama's Safe Harbor law; the reporter expressed frustration that so little had been done to publicize the law, and that infants were still being left in garbage cans. My wife started investigating the possibility of getting some grant money to start a publicity campaign, and ended up contacting the AL AGs office.

She was told that the state would not allow any such campaign, because of pressure from various religious groups who thought that widespread knowledge of the law would lead to more teen pregnancies.

I'll leave it to the reader to make sense of THAT logic.

 

[CrimsonCT]

I'll leave it to the reader to make sense of THAT logic.

religious groups

Yep, sounds about right.

4. Doctors do not have to perform abortions, but they must provide a doctor who will perform it. Pro-lifers think doctors should have a choice. Pro-choicers think women shouldn't be "caught" if their doctor doesn't perform them. So, make it mandatory that an "abortion" doctor is available, but doctors can choose not to perform one themselves if they so choose.

I pretty much agree with your other points. But I can certainly see a physician having a moral objection to referring a patient if he believes abortion to be murder. I'd see your point if this procedure were difficult to locate and therefore put undue stress on the patient, but anyone who can use the phone book can find an abortion clinic without making their physician consent to the procedure by proxy referral.

 

[TRUTIDE]

i agree with what i think you are saying. abortion is just not on my radar screen as a political matter (meaning i don't think it should be a matter of politics, but realizing that it is almost purely a matter of politics.)

my opinion is that abortion is mostly a "wedge" issue used to garner support and ultimately power. those successfully wielding the wedge issue have no motivation to see it go away, it only serves their ends as long as it exists.

Ageement is good (even though we may disagree on who weilds the biggest "wedge").

IMO it's not a scientific question. CT gave a pretty good explanation of why earlier in the thread.

If we can use science to predict the future and the past as with answering questions of evolution and global warming, then I would think that it should certainly be used as a primary means for determining a more observable question like "when life begins". This has to be a better option than leaving it up to politicians and judges to define. Life goes through many gradations from fertilization through death. Aborting it at any point during this developement can only be thought of as the ending of such life. I do not think that anyone that studies human embryology would augue with the fact that a new, unique life begins when the 23 chromosomes of the male encounter the 23 chromosomes of the female (fertilization/conception). Surely this will come more to light in our future discussions on embryonic stem cell research and cloning.

 

[TRUTIDE]

gmart, I appreciate your trying to actually provide a solution instead of just talking about what's wrong. Consider me a pessimist, but I'm having a hard time seeing a person being sterilized for a specified list of grievances (assuming of course that this list would be set in stone and couldn't be changed by those that would take away your parenting "privileges" if you were found spanking your child for misbehavior).
How about this. A progression...
1. Raise the level of contraceptive education - both in birth control and abstinence. Not do one or the other, but both, and do them both heavily, primarily in areas with higher abortion and teen birth rates. This is something I think everyone agrees on: Reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.
This should be goal number one.
2. Provide extra funding for adoption services, particularly for American children (not racial, but as opposed to adopting a child from Russia). Adoption is very expensive and time consuming. This is an additional choice for the pro-choicers, and it is supported by pro-lifers. If adoption is made an option for more pregnant women, and if more people can afford, and desire to adopt, then this will help the # of unwanted babies decrease. Education and incentives should be expanded on both ends: mothers-to-be and potential adopters.
3. Eliminate third term abortions, except in medical emergencies. While not everyone agrees on this, I think it is the next most agreeable thing in the abortion debate. Even Obama has stated he thinks these are not good. Babies have a relatively good chance of living if born in the third trimester.
Women who choose to have an abortion should have ample time to make a decision, along with their doctor, by the end of their second trimester.
4. Doctors do not have to perform abortions, but they must provide a doctor who will perform it. Pro-lifers think doctors should have a choice. Pro-choicers think women shouldn't be "caught" if their doctor doesn't perform them. So, make it mandatory that an "abortion" doctor is available, but doctors can choose not to perform one themselves if they so choose.

Those would be my suggestions, but I'm sure there are holes.

Athough I personally do not think #3 goes far enough, I would agree with all of your proposals overall, in a national plan. As I have stated, I do not think it right to push my personal beliefs on everyone as a whole.

One thing I would definitely add though would be something prohibiting public funds being used to pay abortions. I think that this only uses taxpayer money to perform acts that many Americans strongly disagree with ethically.

 

[TRUTIDE]

in response to rammerjammer:

funny how you immediately mention blacks despite me not using race anywhere in my post. take a read of freakonomics sometime or just google it in regards to abortion versus crime. it explains the argument much better than i can.

as far as aborting all black babies: no, i do not support eugenics. what i am saying is that if you take every race and single out the families that have generational problems with crime, drugs, violence, etc, then you can be reasonably sure that the next generation from that family will most likely show the same tendencies. Many people use the phrase $1 of family planning is worth $x of future spending. Even Pelosi said something to this effect in the last day or so. What they are saying when they use that phrase is basically a very nice way of saying that if we spend $1 on a condom today we wont have to spend $10,000 on your criminal drug addict once he grows up. As the mods say here- it isn't what you say but how you say it. That phras is an extremely PC way of saying we don't want your future criminal draining society bc you cant raise your baby properly.

I wonder how the poor are taking Pelosi's comments. I wonder if they are still just smiling and nodding their heads.

 

[Tide n True]

To me as well. As some of you know, I'm an adoptive and foster parent; my daughter was left in a hospital waiting room a few hours after her birth.

Several years ago, my wife contacted the Mobile reporter whose efforts led to Alabama's Safe Harbor law; the reporter expressed frustration that so little had been done to publicize the law, and that infants were still being left in garbage cans. My wife started investigating the possibility of getting some grant money to start a publicity campaign, and ended up contacting the AL AGs office.

She was told that the state would not allow any such campaign, because of pressure from various religious groups who thought that widespread knowledge of the law would lead to more teen pregnancies.

I'll leave it to the reader to make sense of THAT logic.

I can't believe the AG's office would openly use the viewpoints of religious groups as a justification for anything to just any "Tom, Dick, Harry, or Jane." Now, behind closed doors and among political minds, I'm sure those viewpoints are tossed about regularly.

 

[gmart74]

I wonder how the poor are taking Pelosi's comments. I wonder if they are still just smiling and nodding their heads.

she is a democrat- it doesn't matter what she says, the poor are brainwashed into always smiling and nodding their head no matter what a dem says. if a rep would have said the same thing people would be calling for them to step down from office.

 

[TRUTIDE]

she is a democrat- it doesn't matter what she says, the poor are brainwashed into always smiling and nodding their head no matter what a dem says. if a rep would have said the same thing people would be calling for them to step down from office.

There has to be a trick here. Why would she impose breeding control on her own voters? This seems counter productive to the Dems agenda for the future.

 

[gmart74]

perhaps she is short-sighted.......

 

[AlistarWills]

I have a solution to "unwanted pregnancies". Don't do the "crime" and you won't have to do the time. We all know how babies get here. If you don't want one, don't do what it takes to get one. How simple is that? Self responsibility people! People need to own up to their mistakes and do what they can to make the best out of them. Of course, that makes too much sense.

 

[gmart74]

self responsibility is no longer an acceptable form of behavior in this country.

 

[uafan4life]

I have a solution to "unwanted pregnancies". Don't do the "crime" and you won't have to do the time. We all know how babies get here. If you don't want one, don't do what it takes to get one. How simple is that? Self responsibility people! People need to own up to their mistakes and do what they can to make the best out of them. Of course, that makes too much sense.

There you go injecting common sense into the equation.

While it's not the most compelling argument, at least from a debate standpoint, it does make the most sense.

You shouldn't be able to deny another human being their life just to escape the consequences of your own actions simply because it's not convenient for you.

I'm sure everybody is quite aware of my stance on the subject if they've read through really any part of this thread. But when it comes down to it from a common sense perspective allowing abortion (among many other things) is bad for our society. We have made it legal, and relatively easy, for a young girl to escape the natural consequences of her actions by denying life to another person.

It both devalues human life and teaches that you don't have to suffer the consequences of your actions. Neither of those is good for a society.

 

[Tide n True]

But when it comes down to it from a common sense perspective allowing abortion (among many other things) is bad for our society. We have made it legal, and relatively easy, for a young girl to escape the natural consequences of her actions by denying life to another person.

It both devalues human life and teaches that you don't have to suffer the consequences of your actions. Neither of those is good for a society.

Rome. 2009 A.D.

 

[CrimsonCT]

You shouldn't be able to deny another human being their life just to escape the consequences of your own actions simply because it's not convenient for you... It both devalues human life and teaches that you don't have to suffer the consequences of your actions. Neither of those is good for a society.

Out of curiosity, do you make an exception for cases of rape and incest, where the pregnancy is forced? If so, it's difficult to reconcile these exceptions with your belief that abortion is tantamount to murder. If not, then you dispel your own argument that abortion is bad for society by removing the responsibility for one's actions.

 

[SavannahDare]

Out of curiosity, do you make an exception for cases of rape and incest, where the pregnancy is forced? If so, it's difficult to reconcile these exceptions with your belief that abortion is tantamount to murder. If not, then you dispel your own argument that abortion is bad for society by removing the responsibility for one's actions.

This has been the thing that most complicates the abortion issue for me. I am truly against elective abortion but, if I were in charge, I would want to enable victims of rape (proven rape, not "alleged-oops-I-got-drunk-and-woke-up-post-coital" rape) and young incest victims to be allowed to make the choice to abort. The problem arises, however, because then you have to get into proving circumstances and there are many, many gray areas and exceptions.

Unfortunately, for me, I usually end up siding with the "keep abortion legal" folks for the simple reason that making it "illegal, but there are exceptions" would become such a quagmire nothing would ever get accomplished. Add to that the fact that women have been finding ways to abort unwanted pregnancies practically since the dawn of time, well...I'd rather the ones who really need an abortion be able to do so legally, cleanly, and with medical supervision. It's such a complicated issue in my mind.

I have to give props to those of you who see it in a black and white way. I don't know how you do it. There are so many complicating factors.

 

[always4bama]

yes using American Indians and Irish would have made me feel much better

one of the things you mentioned was "It denies the child choice." Well having crack and meth addicted parents denies the choice as well. So does having uneducated parents. All these things reduce the child's ability to maximize its potential. All life is born equal but we quickly diverge after birth. I am not saying it is the child's fault and I am not saying that we can look into the future and absolutely determine what the child will become. What I am saying is let's take all the moral and philosophical semantics out of the argument.

1. Do we want more or less murderers, thieves and rapists in our society?
I will assume the answer is less.

2. How do we effectively accomplish that?
Every post term social program has been a complete failure. So the only thing left is prevention of the criminal ever being born.

I guess that is the most simplistic rationale that I can submit. Morals and philosophical nuances can sway how we actually put prevention into use, but unless we get serious about finding solutions to the problem instead of treating the symptoms then we will always have this issue of rampant crime and generational problems.

Some of use do overcome the odds that are against at birth. I had both parents that were under-educated less than a middle school education. Dad was the world's worst provider, I could use a lot of other words that would describe him better but I will opt to say he made life miserable. Mom was an emotional train wreck most of the time. There was alcohol abuse, physical and sexual abuse that took place in our home yet each of use children opted for something better.

They gave life to 9 children, we have all obtained a good education, are all gainfully employed and no one has ever served a day in jail. I for one am grateful that none of use was aborted it sounds as if my parents might have fit the standard to have the children aborted.

 

[Tider@GW_Law]

There you go injecting common sense into the equation.

While it's not the most compelling argument, at least from a debate standpoint, it does make the most sense.

You shouldn't be able to deny another human being their life just to escape the consequences of your own actions simply because it's not convenient for you.

I'm sure everybody is quite aware of my stance on the subject if they've read through really any part of this thread. But when it comes down to it from a common sense perspective allowing abortion (among many other things) is bad for our society. We have made it legal, and relatively easy, for a young girl to escape the natural consequences of her actions by denying life to another person.

It both devalues human life and teaches that you don't have to suffer the consequences of your actions. Neither of those is good for a society.

I always get a kick out of reading a bunch of men's arguments on abortion. This post is a good example of why men should stop pretending they know what it's like to be a woman in this situation, or just about any other situation for that matter. At least try to empathize.

I also think many on here need to think long and hard on how their pro-life position may be inconsistent with their belief in the individual right to own a firearm and bad policy when combined with a weak social services system (e.g. Medicaid, SCHIP, welfare). For instance, you want a single, uneducated woman to have that unintended pregnancy and then figure out how to work and pay for child care, while ensuring that he doesn't grow up to be a murderous gang member (and don't pretend you know what it would be like to have to give up your child for adoption).

 

[bayoutider]

Out of curiosity, do you make an exception for cases of rape and incest, where the pregnancy is forced? If so, it's difficult to reconcile these exceptions with your belief that abortion is tantamount to murder. If not, then you dispel your own argument that abortion is bad for society by removing the responsibility for one's actions.

Thank you. This is the issue I have with pro life. I ask myself what would I do if my daughter was raped by some sex offender who escaped from prison, what would I do if my 12 year old daughter was gang raped by a bunch of hood rats, what would I do if my wife was overpowered and raped by someone mentally retarded and became pregnant. Call me a hypocrite but those would be times I would side with pro choice.

 

[jthomas666]

I can't believe the AG's office would openly use the viewpoints of religious groups as a justification for anything to just any "Tom, Dick, Harry, or Jane." Now, behind closed doors and among political minds, I'm sure those viewpoints are tossed about regularly.

Your belief doesn't really enter in to it. That's what happened. And it's not that hard to accept that it would happen--that position is simply an extension of the "If you teach it, they will come" argument against sex education in schools.

 

[dvldog]

When I drink and drive and get caught, they take away my license to drive. When I molest little kids, I am given a restraining order so that I am not allowed around little kids. When I When I can't pay my credit card, it gets cancelled.

Man, you should have been aborted a long time ago!

Seriously, how about "just say no"? Failing that, use birth control and/or demand some sort of BC from the male? Doing/Not doing any of the above is a "free choice". Live w/the consequences.

I also like some of the adoption comments. I don't really understand why adoption is so expensive and hard. Heck, do a background check and give the baby to someone who will love it. In the long run, that saves the Govt money.