Question: Over-coaching the secondary?

Ace14bama

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Nov 15, 2014
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I just wanted to get you guys opinions on something I heard on the radio this morning in MS. And forgive me ahead of time if this has been talked about recently; I’ve been working out of the country for a couple of years and I’m just now getting back into the swing of things here in the states.

My question is this: Do you feel that there is an over-coaching of the defensive secondary done at Alabama? It was referenced as an obvious issue that CNS has by some UM radio host in MS this morning and it sounded as if it was a known flaw to anyone outside of Alabama fandom. When I first heard it, I was like NOOO WAY! Then as it soaked in, I began to think there might be some truth to it. To think of all the talent that we are able to recruit in that secondary, mixed with the well documented difficulty of some players (not just in the secondary) being able to grasp the defensive schemes, also mixed with some so-so results at times from that secondary, it made sense to me that this could actually be an issue. The radio host cited several unnamed NFL sources that rave about how good a coach CNS is, but that his only problem is he over-coaches the players and doesn’t just let them play. I think I have come to the personal opinion that if there is over-coaching done at Alabama, it’s minimal. Maybe we can over-coach a little bit because most times we have the depth to cover for those that aren’t quite getting it yet. Then again, there can’t be that much over-coaching done…we win way too many games for there to be an issue such as this.

I’m certainly not asking this from a “sky is falling”perspective…I completely trust CNS and I’m not worried in the least. And Lord knows I can’t handle another year living in MS when Ole Miss beats us. I just wanted to get other’s thoughts on the subject after hearing that this morning. It was rather intriguing.
 
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We have a new coach in the secondary, Mel Tucker. He has done extremely great job with our secondary this year. Geno Smith and Cyrus Jones already have Ints each, and Minkah forced a fumble... those guys are improving each game. I don't think the players are overcoached because theyre just now doing things that they should be doing in first place. Last year, i thought they were undercoached... Its long way to go .. but we'll be okay.
 
I just wanted to get you guys opinions on something I heardon the radio this morning in MS. Andforgive me ahead of time if this has been talked about recently; I’ve been workingout of the country for a couple of years and I’m just now getting back into theswing of things here in the states.

My question is this: Do you feel that there is an over-coaching of the defensive secondarydone at Alabama? It was referenced as anobvious issue that CNS has by some UM radio host in MS this morning and itsounded as if it was a known flaw to anyone outside of Alabama fandom. When I first heard it, I was like NOOO WAY! Then as it soaked in, I began to think theremight be some truth to it. To think ofall the talent that we are able to recruit in that secondary, mixed with thewell documented difficulty of some players (not just in the secondary) beingable to grasp the defensive schemes, also mixed with some so-so results attimes from that secondary, it made sense to me that this could actually be anissue. The radio host cited severalunnamed NFL sources that rave about how good a coach CNS is, but that his onlyproblem is he over-coaches the players and doesn’t just let them play. I think I have come to the personal opinionthat if there is over-coaching done at Alabama, it’s minimal. Maybe we can over-coach a little bit becausemost times we have the depth to cover for those that aren’t quite getting ityet. Then again, there can’t be thatmuch over-coaching done…we win way too many games for there to be an issue such as this.

I’m certainly not asking this from a “sky is falling”perspective…I completely trust CNS and I’m not worried in the least. And Lord knows I can’t handle another year living in MS when Ole Missbeats us. I just wanted to get other’sthoughts on the subject after hearing that this morning. It was rather intriguing.

One of the biggest misconceptions about Alabama's recruiting classes. There wasn't much talent recruited in the secondary after the 2010 class with Dee Milliner prior to the 2014 class of Tony Brown and Marlon Humphrey. Yes, Alabama signed one top safety per class. That's about it. The CB recruiting during that stretch was pretty weak. Plus, we had Eddie Williams leave the team after his issues.
 
GT, didn't we do that against aTm last year? ;-) We saw the results of that :-) Seriously though, one has to find the best balance between letting the horses run and coaching 'em. Even before last season, I know CNS talked about that in his own book ("How Good Do You Want to Be?"). He would teach his NFL db techniques only to find that some players have their own (in this case better as CNS admits) techniques or just raw talent and abilities that CNS admits that just can't be coached. In those few cases, he says it's best to let them go but be prepared to coach if needed. I am convinced more than ever that CNS is actually an engineer at heart. He has the best qualities of a great engineer which is to say he owns his own process, continuously improves it and even asks other coaches to shoot holes in his ideas when necessary. I'd say if anyone knows what the right balance is, no one's closer to CNS at that. He's not perfect but in head coaching and db coaching, he really is the best there is in the college game.
 
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IMO, hiring Coach Tucker was just what the team needed. No, they are not "over-coached" at all. As RTR pointed out, we have had a drop off in recruiting at the CB spot and that has changed, as well.
 
"Over-coaching" can be a trade off. A more complicated scheme or set of expectations might make it harder for a player to contribute as quickly, but might pay off down the road as they are not just winging it. This would obviously become a problem if you suddenly need immediate contribution from guys coming in.
 
How did this thread get legs? Ok, what is the definition of "over-coaching"? I believe it is a word made up by football analysts, that is, talking head media whose job it is to create conversation out of speculation since they have zero or limited ability to actually do any coaching themselves.
 
One of the biggest misconceptions about Alabama's recruiting classes. There wasn't much talent recruited in the secondary after the 2010 class with Dee Milliner prior to the 2014 class of Tony Brown and Marlon Humphrey. Yes, Alabama signed one top safety per class. That's about it. The CB recruiting during that stretch was pretty weak. Plus, we had Eddie Williams leave the team after his issues.

beat me to it
 
One of the biggest misconceptions about Alabama's recruiting classes. There wasn't much talent recruited in the secondary after the 2010 class with Dee Milliner prior to the 2014 class of Tony Brown and Marlon Humphrey. Yes, Alabama signed one top safety per class. That's about it. The CB recruiting during that stretch was pretty weak. Plus, we had Eddie Williams leave the team after his issues.

the one knock I have about how we've recruited is that across some years we go too heavy on a single position - i.e. Henry and the other 3 top RB's we brought in or when we got Ragland, Lee, Anderson, Devall and Hayes all as LBs in the same class. Seems like it creates a bit of a logjam and makes it a little harder to bring in guys at that position for a class or two because there's so much depth, then once those guys graduate, we end up pretty thin or very young
 
We have a new coach in the secondary, Mel Tucker. He has done extremely great job with our secondary this year. Geno Smith and Cyrus Jones already have Ints each, and Minkah forced a fumble... those guys are improving each game. I don't think the players are overcoached because theyre just now doing things that they should be doing in first place. Last year, i thought they were undercoached... Its long way to go .. but we'll be okay.

Geno doesn't have a pick. The one in the Wisconsin game was Eddie Jackson.

Otherwise, I agree. I'm still very uneasy about the play of the secondary but I thought there was a very noticeable improvement from game 1 to game 2. If that growth continues, I might actually go back to feeling good about an opponent facing third and long instead of wishing they were facing third and short and thus be tempted to try a running play.
 
In general I would say yes. That doesn't mean that we haven't had good players or secondary units. That doesn't mean that the unit this year is or will be bad. But IMO the technique that is taught to the players is to technical. I've read lengthy columns and such that have been posted here and elsewhere about the technique that is taught which basically centers around when the DB can turn and look for the ball in relation to whether or not the DB is "in phase" or "out of phase." Again, JMO, but I think it makes our players think to much about what they are doing than just reacting and letting their ability and instinct take over. I watched LSU play MS State this past week and LSU has a true freshman starting corner back (not nickel like Minkah) who turned his head and played the ball just about every time it was thrown his way. Just boggles the mind that LSU has a true freshman playing the ball like that and Bama routinely has 4th or 5th year seniors who I've never seen turn their head and make a play on the ball.

TLDR: I think Alabama's secondary will be ok this year but I think the technique being taught is overly technical..
 
A guess would be that Neil McReady is the radio host.

Upon further research, it was actually Bo Bounds out of Jackson. What made it seem more interesting to me at the time was that his guest during this segment was Ryan Fowler of 99.1 in Tuscaloosa. When Bo posed the question to Ryan about the secondary, Ryan agreed and hinted that he had spoken with many players, etc. that felt the same. I won't link it here but the segment from this morning is available to hear. Then again, you might not want to waste your time.

I know that these are media figures and I feel that Bo was trying to find or create any possible additional hope that UM might pull the upset this weekend. The belief of a positive outcome and even a decisive victory for Ole Miss in these parts is really sickening.
 
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