News Article: Obama Lifts Ban on Abortions

[bamanut_aj]

this won't mean anything to some of you, and that's fine.

I'm really conflicted on this topic. I would fall on the side of "only if rape or incest". But then I think, "what if I asked Jesus his opinion?", and I think I know my answer.

But still......

 

[jthomas666]

I also like some of the adoption comments. I don't really understand why adoption is so expensive and hard. Heck, do a background check and give the baby to someone who will love it. In the long run, that saves the Govt money.

Adopting through the state is relatively cheap--about $1000 for attorney fees, and you get it all back on your taxes the following year.

Foreign adoptions are expensive because the foreign countries see the process as a means to get a lot of US currency. Russia is now requiring the prospective parents to make TWO trips to Russia, for instance, when 10 years ago, the parents made but one trip, the trip to get the child (my brother-in-law's familiy adopted from Russia).

Private adoptions in the US are expensive mainly due to market forces--unlike the other adoptions, these are almost always infants, and people will pay through the nose for them.

Current tax law will credit your adoption expenses for up to ~$22,000; I believe that if the expenses are more than that (and they usually are for foreign adoptions), you can take another $22,000 the following year.

 

[gmart74]

Some of use do overcome the odds that are against at birth. I had both parents that were under-educated less than a middle school education. Dad was the world's worst provider, I could use a lot of other words that would describe him better but I will opt to say he made life miserable. Mom was an emotional train wreck most of the time. There was alcohol abuse, physical and sexual abuse that took place in our home yet each of use children opted for something better.

They gave life to 9 children, we have all obtained a good education, are all gainfully employed and no one has ever served a day in jail. I for one am grateful that none of use was aborted it sounds as if my parents might have fit the standard to have the children aborted.

you are to be congratulated as well as your siblings. however your example really has no bearing on the conversation (not trying to be mean, just being blunt). your situation is the exception to the rule- and exceptions to the rule are useless for policy debate. and as i said previously, for every 99 criminals, you would unfortunately get rid of one einstein as well.

 

[GreatDanish]

Adopting through the state is relatively cheap--about $1000 for attorney fees, and you get it all back on your taxes the following year.

Foreign adoptions are expensive because the foreign countries see the process as a means to get a lot of US currency. Russia is now requiring the prospective parents to make TWO trips to Russia, for instance, when 10 years ago, the parents made but one trip, the trip to get the child (my brother-in-law's familiy adopted from Russia).

Private adoptions in the US are expensive mainly due to market forces--unlike the other adoptions, these are almost always infants, and people will pay through the nose for them.

Current tax law will credit your adoption expenses for up to ~$22,000; I believe that if the expenses are more than that (and they usually are for foreign adoptions), you can take another $22,000 the following year.

I've known two different couples that have tried to adopt through their states (different states), and both of them gave up after two or more years and went with a private group. They had different issues, but both revolved around a lack of organization.
Does anyone else have any experiences adopting from the state? I'd love to hear more positive stories.

 

[gmart74]

as i understand it through many second hand stories- the problem is not finding people who want to adopt babies. the problem is finding people who want to adopt malnourished "crack" babies who are predominantly black. these babies will require more medical treatment and counseling and will exhibit more behavioral issues than your typical child. many people want a child but they do not want the burden of caring for a "damaged" baby. therefore we wind up with a glut of these babies that no one wants to adopt and a glut of people seking to adopt a much smaller number of eligible babies. the result is many babies are not adopted and many would be parents who cant find a suitable baby to adopt. the system is overwhelmed on both ends.

 

[jthomas666]

I've known two different couples that have tried to adopt through their states (different states), and both of them gave up after two or more years and went with a private group. They had different issues, but both revolved around a lack of organization.

I don't doubt that at all. While we've had good experiences with our various case workers (with one exception), my impression is that DHR administrators come from a pool of people too incompetent to work at the DMV.

As Gmart said, if you're looking for a healthy white infant, DHR is probably not for you. You generally have to go the foster to adopt route, which can be emotionally brutal. We hit the lottery with our daughter; the day after she was left at the hospital, her caseworker was looking for a foster placement; our folder was on the top of the stack of potential families, and after reading it, the worker just had a feeling that we were the right placement. At the time, we had only been licensed foster parents for about 3 months.

In contrast, the boys have been with us for almost three years, and the state just got around to terminating the mother's parental rights. It could be another year until they get around to the adoption.

My best friend and his wife are in the process of adopting a brother and sister, 8 and 9 years old. They had to jump through a LOT of hoops to get certified as an adoptive resource, partly because the wife is in a wheelchair, and some of the administrators were balky about that (a clear violation of federal law). Phil did get a last laugh in. On a followup questionnaire, he asked if he had any reservations about his wife being in a wheelchair. His response: "Quite frankly, I'm more bothered by the fact that she's an Auburn grad."

 

[TRUTIDE]

Thank you. This is the issue I have with pro life. I ask myself what would I do if my daughter was raped by some sex offender who escaped from prison, what would I do if my 12 year old daughter was gang raped by a bunch of hood rats, what would I do if my wife was overpowered and raped by someone mentally retarded and became pregnant. Call me a hypocrite but those would be times I would side with pro choice.

I do not see how having a pro life stance wires anyone into the acceptance of rape. Rape has been used by the pro abortion crowd for a long time to confuse the issue. A woman being raped is certainly an engregious circumstance and the woman should certainly be allowed to abort. This is entirely different than someone acting irresponsibly with sex and just did not "intend" to get pregnant. I can support capital punishment for the worst of our nation's criminals and support someone killing someone in self defense or in defense of their family without screwing up my beliefs or my values. I can own a gun and still be against murder. Why the left would think it is better for the criminals to have all of the guns is beyond me. These arguments are just unrealistic. Leave it to the liberals to try to define other peoples values in absence of their own. It is not as if the right are the ones pushing a extremist FOCA bill through congress that would ban abortion in the case of rape. The extremism is coming from the left. We have extremist on the right as well but they do not control our party or our agenda. Obama promised Planned Parenthood that he would push their agenda and he is doing just that.

At some point we have to take responsibility for our own actions and we have to be more responsible in how we raise our kids. Many people mess up early in life and make decisions that haunt them all of their lives and this is not just with sex. Many spend their young adulthood in prison for mistakes they made as a youth. Many are diasabled or paralyzed for mistakes they make as youth. Making abortion more accessible is only worsening the problem of teenage pregnancies because it allows teens to act even more irresponsibly. Lefty activist groups are pushing for more and more school involvement in raising our kids. When and where has this ever worked? They took any form of religion out of the schools so that they could indoctrinate our kids with sex education, abortion/protected sex options. Well, how is this working out for us? Parents need to take responsibility for raising their own children. They need to be involved in their kids lives and know what they are doing and who they are doing it with. If sexual protection is an issue then this needs to be addressed with the kid by the parent and not the school nurse. Easy access to abortion only gives parents another out for not raising their kids responsibly. We cannot expect the government to raise our kids.

Nothing I have seen from the left promotes individual responsibility. They want government control of every part of their life. They want the government to buy out their mortgages when they borrowed irresponsibly. They look to the government to raise their children. They expect the government to keep the world at a perfect temperature and to control natural disasters at the sacrifice of jobs and industry. They want the government to provide free healthcare, education and to hand out free checks to those that do not want to work and pay no taxes. They look to the government to provide a means to kill their unwanted babies so that they are free to experience all of the irresponsible sex they please. Now they even want Nancy Pelosi to be their "Parent Czar" and decide who is worthy of producing children and who is not. We are in for a liberal "free for all" for these next four years.

 

[nivekstan]

I always get a kick out of reading a bunch of men's arguments on abortion. This post is a good example of why men should stop pretending they know what it's like to be a woman in this situation, or just about any other situation for that matter. At least try to empathize.

Your point ignores the other side of the issue. There is an equally devastating consequence to HAVING an abortion. I completely agree that men can never know what it's like to be pregnant and even consider having an abortion. I would also agree that men will never know what it's like for that woman after she actually goes through with it?

I can only speak to my personal experiences. I've known two women who have been very close to me (and no, I did not get either one of them pregnant) who have struggled with the issue of "should I have an abortion." One who went through with an abortion and one who did not. Guess which one tried to commit suicide and immediately sought drugs to "ease" the pain.

 

[gmart74]

Guess which one tried to commit suicide and immediately sought drugs to "ease" the pain.

tough to answer..... i could see both wanting to.

as far as men having no say in abortions- when women and courts stop seeking our financial support of babies is when we will have no say in the matter.

 

[AlistarWills]

I do not see how having a pro life stance wires anyone into the acceptance of rape. Rape has been used by the pro abortion crowd for a long time to confuse the issue. A woman being raped is certainly an engregious circumstance and the woman should certainly be allowed to abort. This is entirely different than someone acting irresponsibly with sex and just did not "intend" to get pregnant. I can support capital punishment for the worst of our nation's criminals and support someone killing someone in self defense or in defense of their family without screwing up my beliefs or my values. I can own a gun and still be against murder. Why the left would think it is better for the criminals to have all of the guns is beyond me. These arguments are just unrealistic. Leave it to the liberals to try to define other peoples values in absence of their own. It is not as if the right are the ones pushing a extremist FOCA bill through congress that would ban abortion in the case of rape. The extremism is coming from the left. We have extremist on the right as well but they do not control our party or our agenda. Obama promised Planned Parenthood that he would push their agenda and he is doing just that.

At some point we have to take responsibility for our own actions and we have to be more responsible in how we raise our kids. Many people mess up early in life and make decisions that haunt them all of their lives and this is not just with sex. Many spend their young adulthood in prison for mistakes they made as a youth. Many are diasabled or paralyzed for mistakes they make as youth. Making abortion more accessible is only worsening the problem of teenage pregnancies because it allows teens to act even more irresponsibly. Lefty activist groups are pushing for more and more school involvement in raising our kids. When and where has this ever worked? They took any form of religion out of the schools so that they could indoctrinate our kids with sex education, abortion/protected sex options. Well, how is this working out for us? Parents need to take responsibility for raising their own children. They need to be involved in their kids lives and know what they are doing and who they are doing it with. If sexual protection is an issue then this needs to be addressed with the kid by the parent and not the school nurse. Easy access to abortion only gives parents another out for not raising their kids responsibly. We cannot expect the government to raise our kids.

Nothing I have seen from the left promotes individual responsibility. They want government control of every part of their life. They want the government to buy out their mortgages when they borrowed irresponsibly. They look to the government to raise their children. They expect the government to keep the world at a perfect temperature and to control natural disasters at the sacrifice of jobs and industry. They want the government to provide free healthcare, education and to hand out free checks to those that do not want to work and pay no taxes. They look to the government to provide a means to kill their unwanted babies so that they are free to experience all of the irresponsible sex they please. Now they even want Nancy Pelosi to be their "Parent Czar" and decide who is worthy of producing children and who is not. We are in for a liberal "free for all" for these next four years.

BRAVODT_Armataz_01_37:

 

[CrimsonNan]

I do not see how having a pro life stance wires anyone into the acceptance of rape. Rape has been used by the pro abortion crowd for a long time to confuse the issue. A woman being raped is certainly an engregious circumstance and the woman should certainly be allowed to abort. This is entirely different than someone acting irresponsibly with sex and just did not "intend" to get pregnant. I can support capital punishment for the worst of our nation's criminals and support someone killing someone in self defense or in defense of their family without screwing up my beliefs or my values. I can own a gun and still be against murder. Why the left would think it is better for the criminals to have all of the guns is beyond me. These arguments are just unrealistic. Leave it to the liberals to try to define other peoples values in absence of their own. It is not as if the right are the ones pushing a extremist FOCA bill through congress that would ban abortion in the case of rape. The extremism is coming from the left. We have extremist on the right as well but they do not control our party or our agenda. Obama promised Planned Parenthood that he would push their agenda and he is doing just that.

At some point we have to take responsibility for our own actions and we have to be more responsible in how we raise our kids. Many people mess up early in life and make decisions that haunt them all of their lives and this is not just with sex. Many spend their young adulthood in prison for mistakes they made as a youth. Many are diasabled or paralyzed for mistakes they make as youth. Making abortion more accessible is only worsening the problem of teenage pregnancies because it allows teens to act even more irresponsibly. Lefty activist groups are pushing for more and more school involvement in raising our kids. When and where has this ever worked? They took any form of religion out of the schools so that they could indoctrinate our kids with sex education, abortion/protected sex options. Well, how is this working out for us? Parents need to take responsibility for raising their own children. They need to be involved in their kids lives and know what they are doing and who they are doing it with. If sexual protection is an issue then this needs to be addressed with the kid by the parent and not the school nurse. Easy access to abortion only gives parents another out for not raising their kids responsibly. We cannot expect the government to raise our kids.

Nothing I have seen from the left promotes individual responsibility. They want government control of every part of their life. They want the government to buy out their mortgages when they borrowed irresponsibly. They look to the government to raise their children. They expect the government to keep the world at a perfect temperature and to control natural disasters at the sacrifice of jobs and industry. They want the government to provide free healthcare, education and to hand out free checks to those that do not want to work and pay no taxes. They look to the government to provide a means to kill their unwanted babies so that they are free to experience all of the irresponsible sex they please. Now they even want Nancy Pelosi to be their "Parent Czar" and decide who is worthy of producing children and who is not. We are in for a liberal "free for all" for these next four years.

Agree!!! Good for you. Excellent post.

 

[TRUTIDE]

as i understand it through many second hand stories- the problem is not finding people who want to adopt babies. the problem is finding people who want to adopt malnourished "crack" babies who are predominantly black. these babies will require more medical treatment and counseling and will exhibit more behavioral issues than your typical child. many people want a child but they do not want the burden of caring for a "damaged" baby. therefore we wind up with a glut of these babies that no one wants to adopt and a glut of people seking to adopt a much smaller number of eligible babies. the result is many babies are not adopted and many would be parents who cant find a suitable baby to adopt. the system is overwhelmed on both ends.

You are correct in your assessment. I would add that the state also deals with children that have been phisically and sexually abused. Some HIV positive. Race is normally determined by the area being served. Of corse in a big city there will be more African Americans but it would balance out in smaller cities in more rural areas. In any case, there are some good kids to be found in the system. They definitely take a little extra TLC on the front end.

I don't doubt that at all. While we've had good experiences with our various case workers (with one exception), my impression is that DHR administrators come from a pool of people too incompetent to work at the DMV.

No the DMV would definitely be a step down. I could take offense to your comment but I wont. My wife has worked with the system for 15 or so years (not in foster care) working directly with neglected children and problem parents. I could try to tell you what she deals with on a day to day basis but it is often difficult for people not involved to understand or even believe. I do know that the women that chose this profession of dealing with these type of kids are well educated and most did not chose this job for their love of money. Most that I have known over the years had a true desire to help those in need and actually have seen the bitter things in life that most of us just see the sketchy details of on the news or read about in the paper.

It is a state run beauracracy though and things are definitely run differently than in the private sector.

 

[CrimsonChuck]

I do not see how having a pro life stance wires anyone into the acceptance of rape. Rape has been used by the pro abortion crowd for a long time to confuse the issue. A woman being raped is certainly an engregious circumstance and the woman should certainly be allowed to abort. This is entirely different than someone acting irresponsibly with sex and just did not "intend" to get pregnant. I can support capital punishment for the worst of our nation's criminals and support someone killing someone in self defense or in defense of their family without screwing up my beliefs or my values. I can own a gun and still be against murder. Why the left would think it is better for the criminals to have all of the guns is beyond me. These arguments are just unrealistic. Leave it to the liberals to try to define other peoples values in absence of their own. It is not as if the right are the ones pushing a extremist FOCA bill through congress that would ban abortion in the case of rape. The extremism is coming from the left. We have extremist on the right as well but they do not control our party or our agenda. Obama promised Planned Parenthood that he would push their agenda and he is doing just that.

At some point we have to take responsibility for our own actions and we have to be more responsible in how we raise our kids. Many people mess up early in life and make decisions that haunt them all of their lives and this is not just with sex. Many spend their young adulthood in prison for mistakes they made as a youth. Many are diasabled or paralyzed for mistakes they make as youth. Making abortion more accessible is only worsening the problem of teenage pregnancies because it allows teens to act even more irresponsibly. Lefty activist groups are pushing for more and more school involvement in raising our kids. When and where has this ever worked? They took any form of religion out of the schools so that they could indoctrinate our kids with sex education, abortion/protected sex options. Well, how is this working out for us? Parents need to take responsibility for raising their own children. They need to be involved in their kids lives and know what they are doing and who they are doing it with. If sexual protection is an issue then this needs to be addressed with the kid by the parent and not the school nurse. Easy access to abortion only gives parents another out for not raising their kids responsibly. We cannot expect the government to raise our kids.

Nothing I have seen from the left promotes individual responsibility. They want government control of every part of their life. They want the government to buy out their mortgages when they borrowed irresponsibly. They look to the government to raise their children. They expect the government to keep the world at a perfect temperature and to control natural disasters at the sacrifice of jobs and industry. They want the government to provide free healthcare, education and to hand out free checks to those that do not want to work and pay no taxes. They look to the government to provide a means to kill their unwanted babies so that they are free to experience all of the irresponsible sex they please. Now they even want Nancy Pelosi to be their "Parent Czar" and decide who is worthy of producing children and who is not. We are in for a liberal "free for all" for these next four years.

So why should it matter to you, TRUTIDE, whether or not these people suffer as a consequence to their actions or not? Unless it is you or your family, it is none of your business. They didn't commit a crime, or wrong you in any way. We have the medical technology to help them.

Let's say someone, God forbid, drives while intoxicated, crashes their car and kills a person in another car. The drunk driver broke his leg in the crash, and needs surgery to repair it. Would you be against giving the driver surgery? Of course he should spend a lot of time in jail, but no one would say that the doctor shouldn't operate on him.

When a couple does have an unplanned pregnancy and gets an abortion, one of two things will happen. The first is that they learn from their mistake, and be more responsible about sex. If that is the case, why would they need to suffer more? The second thing is that they will not learn and they will not be any more responsible. In that case, they will suffer because they will have to go through that over and over again until they learn. Every action has a consequence…you'd better believe it. But those consequences should come from God, and not TRUTIDE.

 

[AlistarWills]

Your point ignores the other side of the issue. There is an equally devastating consequence to HAVING an abortion. I completely agree that men can never know what it's like to be pregnant and even consider having an abortion. I would also agree that men will never know what it's like for that woman after she actually goes through with it?

I can only speak to my personal experiences. I've known two women who have been very close to me (and no, I did not get either one of them pregnant) who have struggled with the issue of "should I have an abortion." One who went through with an abortion and one who did not. Guess which one tried to commit suicide and immediately sought drugs to "ease" the pain.

I also have personally come across a couple of stories, one being a diary of a young lady who was pressured by her boyfriend to abort, and her ensuing pain and regret of losing the child because she wanted to please the boyfriend. Yet kept recounting to herself how she so desired to hold her little boy. Another where the lady aborted and later has had 2 children. The latter child has developmental issues which causes immense regret at terminating the first pregnancy. What could that child have been?

 

[It's On A Slab]

Rape has been used by the pro abortion crowd for a long time to confuse the issue. A woman being raped is certainly an engregious circumstance and the woman should certainly be allowed to abort. .

Either it's a life, as you insist, or its not.

Thus the inconsistency of this argument.

If you base your argument on abortion stopping a beating heart, then who are you to play God in an instance of rape or incest.

Or maybe I should capitalize or use upper case.

 

[TRUTIDE]

So why should it matter to you, TRUTIDE, whether or not these people suffer as a consequence to their actions or not? Unless it is you or your family, it is none of your business. They didn't commit a crime, or wrong you in any way. We have the medical technology to help them.

When we take one life for the conveinience of another, then it is a matter of concern to me. Should our laws make murder legal in any sense, it would be of concern to me. What is taught to our children in our schools is a concern to me.

When a couple does have an unplanned pregnancy and gets an abortion, one of two things will happen. The first is that they learn from their mistake, and be more responsible about sex. If that is the case, why would they need to suffer more? The second thing is that they will not learn and they will not be any more responsible. In that case, they will suffer because they will have to go through that over and over again until they learn. Every action has a consequence…you'd better believe it. But those consequences should come from God, and not TRUTIDE.

I dont dole out any consequences. My response was basically in defense of the pro life stance against suggestions from the pro abortion crowd that we are somehow disingenuous if we support abortion when rape is involved or if we own a gun.

 

[It's On A Slab]

My response was basically in defense of the pro life stance against suggestions from the pro abortion crowd that we are somehow disingenuous if we support abortion when rape is involved or if we own a gun.

You merely stated that the pro-choice folks try to confuse the issue. Then, never addressed the logical inconsistency in your own argument.

Either you support a total ban on abortions or you're not being consistent.

 

[RammerJammer14]

Well I, for one, am against abortion for rape or incest victims. A child is a child. Such a situation would be horrible, but I think that (as with everything else in life) we must do the best we can with the hand we are dealt. A child concieved by rape can be raised to be just as good and helpful as any other child. The difference is that it is unwanted.

However, I think that this is a straw man argument. How many women are raped and then become pregnant?

[url]http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/AbortionStatistics.htm[/URL]

4.7% of all rape victims become pregnant
1% of abortions are due to rape or incest

Reasons Women Choose Abortion:
Wants to postpone childbearing: 25.5%
Wants no (more) children: 7.9%
Cannot afford a baby: 21.3%
Having a child will disrupt education or job: 10.8%
Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy: 14.1%
Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy: 12.2%
Risk to maternal health: 2.8%
Risk to fetal health: 3.3%
Other: 2.1%

Personaly, I can only condone the choice to obtain an abortion in a case of near certain death for the mother, due to pregnancy complications. Which is very rare. However, I would accept abortion for rape or incest victims in a heartbeat if all other abortions were criminalized.

 

[TRUTIDE]

Either it's a life, as you insist, or its not.

Thus the inconsistency of this argument.

If you base your argument on abortion stopping a beating heart, then who are you to play God in an instance of rape or incest.

Or maybe I should capitalize or use upper case.

If you like apples, why do you eat grapefruit?

Life throws us a curve now and again. Sometimes we have to eat grapefruit. The comparison here should be between an egregious act (rape) and an act of conveinance (irresponsible sex).

Are you pro abortion and against capital punishment? Many are and the reverse can be said as well.

If you had the opportunity to shoot someone who had inconveinanced you and not get caught, would you do it? Why not? You are for killing arent you? Do you just randomly walk down the street and kill birds and dogs?
This type of analogy can be used both ways. Both comparisons are ridiculous and neither is appropriate.

 

[CrimsonCT]

How many women are raped and then become pregnant?

Doesn't matter. We're not questioning the statistics, only the logic underlying certain people's beliefs. Slab is right in that it often demonstrates inconsistency.