Article: Immigration and the Health of a Nation

[Al A Bama]

I'm done with politics, done with man-made borders, done with all of it - so yeah, I'm totally on board with that.

However, the salient point of the article, imo, and what speaks to me is not about politics at all, but rather about my attitudes about these issues - not about what the government should or shouldn't do, it's about how Christians should be addressing these issues individually. And I posted this because I hoped it would cause others, primarily fellow Christians, to really spend some time in thought and prayer over their attitudes to make sure they were certain they square with Jesus's teachings and principles. It bothers me that to see so many Christians wanting to end welfare, wanting to deport illegals immigrants, etc., when I don't see anything in scripture that would back these attitudes.

On a fundamental level it's why I'm no longer involved in politics at all.

Our country has been the most benevolent country in the history of the world. Hopefully, we will continue to be. It's not just our government (our tax money) that is used to benefit poor people throughout the world, it's individual Christians who give of themselves, their wealth and time, to assist the needy throughout the world. Many even give their lives in trying to spread the teachings of Christ and in helping people to help themselves. These people need to get off their mats and walk and not just depend on others. They need to help themselves.

Remember! Christianity isn't really a religion, it's having a relationship with OUR CREATOR.

We can't afford to have sane, educated people like I think you are to check out on the world of politics. Currently the inmates are in charge of the facility, our country. If you check out, there are plenty of imbeciles, morons, and idiots who do not have the love of Christ in their hearts.

What has the Muslim religion done for the poor of this world? What have the followers of this religion done for humanity? If you have an answer, please educate me.

You can be kind and considerate of others in a Christ-like manner and still have laws that should be enforced like immigration laws. If we didn't, we'd be the most populous country in the world and the most poverty stricken from admitting more people into our country than we can deal with.

We can't just open the doors to anyone who wants to enter this country.

It's not that I want to end welfare. We need to always assist/help those who can't do for themselves because they are physically or mentally challenged. However, others need to get up off their mats and walk to assist themselves, their families and others.

Yes! I pray for those in need. I pray for our President, V-P and members of Congress and the justices on the Supreme Court to govern in a Christ-like manner. I pray that God would soften the hearts of those with HARDENED hearts like the old Pharaoh.

YOU can't just check-out on society. If you do, those who are EVIL will take your place and not be so benevolent. It's time for all people to stand up and live in a Christ-like manner.

I see decadence in our country: lying leaders, filth coming from Hollywood, decadence in our citizens who should be role models for our youth.

I honestly pray that Christ will return soon and RIGHT all WRONGS and restore a society the way it was originally meant to be.

You have the free will to do your own thing, but are you being RESPONSIBLE in doing so?

 

[mittman]

I don't want my politicians opening up the New Testament and reading the red type to decide what they should do.

if they just stuck with the red type, it probably wouldn't be too bad

I don't think anyone in this discussion is wanting a theocracy.

If a politician considers himself a Christian I would expect it.

Guiding principles come from any number of places, and I spend a lot of time trying to determine where those who I vote for get theirs.

While I understand the thought process of giving up on politics, we are in a much different position than most that have lived on this earth. We have the ability to actually chose our government. It isn't forced on us at a gun, sword or spear tip. It isn't forced on us by birth right. We get to choose. So I try to choose those that will do what I think should be done. No I don't want a theocracy. I want a government that let's me do what I believe my God wants me to do, and give that right to others as well. We currently have that. If I have to live in a society that doesn't I will. Until that day I am not going to give up that right easily. Again I understand where you are coming from. It is not the most important thing, and it is easy to become disillusioned.

As for the whole immigration issue. Where I stand is to be kind and compassionate to everyone I come in contact with. I want us to continue to allow immigration. I am not one who thinks we should just throw everyone out who did not follow the rules. If I were in their position, I would probably be trying to do the same thing. I would want to get to the place where I had choices like we have. But we need to do it right. We need something that is orderly, consistent, and does not create more problems for everyone involved than it solves. Those that are tasked with enforcing immigration laws should do just that. Like others have said, if a law is not enforced it might as well be repealed.

 

[92tide]

I see decadence in our country: lying leaders, filth coming from Hollywood, decadence in our citizens who should be role models for our youth.

I honestly pray that Christ will return soon and RIGHT all WRONGS and restore a society the way it was originally meant to be.

well, if he didn't return to right the wrongs of slavery, holocaust, every other abhorrent thing we humans have done to each other over the millenia, i don't think politicians being politicians or too much secksy time on tv/movies is going to get his attention.

 

[Al A Bama]

well, if he didn't return to right the wrongs of slavery, holocaust, every other abhorrent thing we humans have done to each other over the millenia, i don't think politicians being politicians or too much secksy time on tv/movies is going to get his attention.

We have all been given free will. All of those things you mentioned were WRONGS of EVIL people or just plain sinners who have free will. Some may have even tried to JUSTIFY those EVILS using the Bible. However, they are/were not doing what the New Testament of the Bible teaches, i.e. what Christ teaches.

Maybe it is going to get worse than the things you mentioned above before the Creator is totally dissatisfied with the CREATION.

What does Christ teach us? There were the Ten Commandments, but what were Christ's Commandments?

In the Muslim world, women are currently the slaves. And, what do the Muslims do to Gays?

I've got a feeling things will get much worse before, well, before they get better if you know what I mean.

 

[92tide]

We have all been given free will. All of those things you mentioned were WRONGS of EVIL people or just plain sinners who have free will. Some may have even tried to JUSTIFY those EVILS using the Bible. However, they are/were not doing what the New Testament of the Bible teaches, i.e. what Christ teaches.

Maybe it is going to get worse than the things you mentioned above before the Creator is totally dissatisfied with the CREATION.

What does Christ teach us? There were the Ten Commandments, but what were Christ's Commandments?

In the Muslim world, women are currently the slaves. And, what do the Muslims do to Gays?

I've got a feeling things will get much worse before, well, before they get better if you know what I mean.

que?

 

[TheAccountant]

I'm done with politics, done with man-made borders, done with all of it - so yeah, I'm totally on board with that.

Seems to me you're some religious anarchist-socialist hybrid.

 

[TideEngineer08]

I'm done with politics, done with man-made borders, done with all of it - so yeah, I'm totally on board with that.

However, the salient point of the article, imo, and what speaks to me is not about politics at all, but rather about my attitudes about these issues - not about what the government should or shouldn't do, it's about how Christians should be addressing these issues individually. And I posted this because I hoped it would cause others, primarily fellow Christians, to really spend some time in thought and prayer over their attitudes to make sure they were certain they square with Jesus's teachings and principles. It bothers me that to see so many Christians wanting to end welfare, wanting to deport illegals immigrants, etc., when I don't see anything in scripture that would back these attitudes.

On a fundamental level it's why I'm no longer involved in politics at all.

I can find plenty of scripture to back up these attitudes.

As for immigration, it baffles me how folks could believe that a borderless USA is something that will survive. There must be structure; there must be rules that are followed. At some point, the system will fail if this kind of thing continues on or grows as Obama and the Democrats would like for it to.

What needs to happen is that the immigration system becomes streamlined and uncluttered. I want people that are looking for work and looking to become a producing member of our society to come here and prosper and not wait years and years for that to happen because the system is clogged (and I want those folks to come from all over the world, not just Latin America). But an unchecked free-for-all? That's dangerous on so many levels. Scarcity is a real thing.

 

[92tide]

Seems to me you're some religious anarchist-socialist hybrid.

i think hes more of a lefty statist trying to hide his true intentions

 

[TheAccountant]

i think hes more of a lefty statist trying to hide his true intentions

I see CA's fingerprints all over Agenda 21

 

[92tide]

I see CA's fingerprints all over Agenda 21

and he will brainwash us all with subliminal messages hidden in the next allison kraus release

 

[TideEngineer08]

and he will brainwash us all with subliminal messages hidden in the next allison kraus release

Good thing I only listen to Glenn Beck.

 

[92tide]

Good thing I only listen to Glenn Beck.

but i bet you leave the shortwave on while you sleep

 

[TideEngineer08]

but i bet you leave the shortwave on while you sleep

Well you got me there.

 

[Tidewater]

I am in favor of legal immigration. The overwhelming majority of the inhabitants of the United States are immigrants or descendants of immigrants.
Having spent more time in foreign countries (42 countries to date) than the majority of the people on this board (and a good bit of that in really crappy foreign countries, including the multicultural experiment of the former Yugoslavia), I believe I can say without fear of contradiction that countries are the way they are because of the culture of the people inhabiting them.
If we were to swap all the people of Mexico and all the people of the US, within a few decades, the US would run a lot like Mexico now does and Mexico would run a lot like the US now does (with all the good and bad that entails).
The Federal government has a positive duty to protect the states from invasion. I do not believe that meant just foreign military forces wearing uniforms and carrying weapons and flying flags. Both parties (for their own reasons) favor turning a blind eye to this. The consequences will eventually be enormous for the United States precisely because these illegal immigrants are checking their cultures at the border. They are bringing them with them.
Waves of immigrants have been accommodated in the United States and its culture in the past, but there is a digestion process. Biting off too many at one time is as unhelpful as eating an entire cow at one sitting. In fact, it is fatal. And for the same reason.
The more illegal immigrants that come to the US, the more the US will look like the countries from which they came, not genetically,(about which I care not at all), but culturally. Ask yourself what makes Mexican culture different than US culture, then ask yourself if you really want the US to become more like Mexico (or Guatemala or Syria)
One horrendous consequence of virtually unrestricted illegal immigration is the "brain drain" (or the related "initiative drain") from foreign countries. The United States is hoovering up those Mexicans, Guatemalans, Salvadorans, Arabs, etc. that have intelligence and initiative (and coming to the US legally or illegally takes a certain amount of initiative and intelligence). That means that those left behind in those countries have just that much smaller of a chance of improving their own country's quality of life. Immigration into the US costs millions in those home countries a portion of their chance of improving their home countries and condemns them to a poor status quo. If a foreigner really wants to live in a country that realizes freedom, opportunity, the rule of law, then stay at home and make those ideals your country's ideals. Do not just run away to the US.
For legal immigrants, I welcome them, on several conditions:
1. You come to work, to explore opportunities to better yourself, your family and the country you are adopting.
2. You come to buy into American culture. You do not have to jettison your native culture at the mid-Atlantic Ridge or the thalweg of the Rio Grande, but you are consciously deciding to become American. That means (inter alia) learning English, accepting the supremacy of the Constitution and the ideals embodied in it, American ideals about nepotism, the rule of law, etc.
3. If they are coming to the US solely for welfare benefits, I say no thanks. We have enough already.
With those conditions, I say, welcome. Now, get to work.

 

[BamaPokerplayer]

I'm done with politics, done with man-made borders, done with all of it - so yeah, I'm totally on board with that.

However, the salient point of the article, imo, and what speaks to me is not about politics at all, but rather about my attitudes about these issues - not about what the government should or shouldn't do, it's about how Christians should be addressing these issues individually. And I posted this because I hoped it would cause others, primarily fellow Christians, to really spend some time in thought and prayer over their attitudes to make sure they were certain they square with Jesus's teachings and principles. It bothers me that to see so many Christians wanting to end welfare, wanting to deport illegals immigrants, etc., when I don't see anything in scripture that would back these attitudes.

On a fundamental level it's why I'm no longer involved in politics at all.

The more I think about this, a person born 50 miles north of the Rio Grande has a lot more opportunities than the person born 50 miles south of the river. Sad day, no easy fixes.

 

[Gr8hope]

CA, Christianity does not ask us to join a suicide pact or to neglect the support of our own to help others. Would you open your home to illegals who are in need and support them while neglecting your own family? I see that as no different than what we are being asked to do by opportunist politicians who hold no love or respect for America.
The open borders policy being pushed by politicians is not out of charity, it is an attempt to control the politics of our country. Ignoring or disengaging will not solve the problems we are facing. Christianity requires us to speak up for our convictions and share God's message of love and grace. I believe that includes supporting politicians we believe will govern based on their Christianity when allowed by our laws.

 

[92tide]

CA, Christianity does not ask us to join a suicide pact or to neglect the support of our own to help others. Would you open your home to illegals who are in need and support them while neglecting your own family? I see that as no different than what we are being asked to do by opportunist politicians who hold no love or respect for America.
The open borders policy being pushed by politicians is not out of charity, it is an attempt to control the politics of our country. Ignoring or disengaging will not solve the problems we are facing. Christianity requires us to speak up for our convictions and share God's message of love and grace. I believe that includes supporting politicians we believe will govern based on their Christianity when allowed by our laws.

because all folks who disagree with you on the issue hate and dis-respect america

doesn't implying that that somewhat fall under the whole not bearing false witness against your neighbor?

 

[TIDE-HSV]

I am in favor of legal immigration. The overwhelming majority of the inhabitants of the United States are immigrants or descendants of immigrants.
Having spent more time in foreign countries (42 countries to date) than the majority of the people on this board (and a good bit of that in really crappy foreign countries, including the multicultural experiment of the former Yugoslavia), I believe I can say without fear of contradiction that countries are the way they are because of the culture of the people inhabiting them.
If we were to swap all the people of Mexico and all the people of the US, within a few decades, the US would run a lot like Mexico now does and Mexico would run a lot like the US now does (with all the good and bad that entails).
The Federal government has a positive duty to protect the states from invasion. I do not believe that meant just foreign military forces wearing uniforms and carrying weapons and flying flags. Both parties (for their own reasons) favor turning a blind eye to this. The consequences will eventually be enormous for the United States precisely because these illegal immigrants are checking their cultures at the border. They are bringing them with them.
Waves of immigrants have been accommodated in the United States and its culture in the past, but there is a digestion process. Biting off too many at one time is as unhelpful as eating an entire cow at one sitting. In fact, it is fatal. And for the same reason.
The more illegal immigrants that come to the US, the more the US will look like the countries from which they came, not genetically,(about which I care not at all), but culturally. Ask yourself what makes Mexican culture different than US culture, then ask yourself if you really want the US to become more like Mexico (or Guatemala or Syria)
One horrendous consequence of virtually unrestricted illegal immigration is the "brain drain" (or the related "initiative drain") from foreign countries. The United States is hoovering up those Mexicans, Guatemalans, Salvadorans, Arabs, etc. that have intelligence and initiative (and coming to the US legally or illegally takes a certain amount of initiative and intelligence). That means that those left behind in those countries have just that much smaller of a chance of improving their own country's quality of life. Immigration into the US costs millions in those home countries a portion of their chance of improving their home countries and condemns them to a poor status quo. If a foreigner really wants to live in a country that realizes freedom, opportunity, the rule of law, stay at home and make those ideals your countries ideals. Do not just run away to the US.
For legal immigrants, I welcome them, on several conditions:
1. You come to work, to explore opportunities to better yourself, your family and the country you are adopting.
2. You come to buy into American culture. You do not have to jettison your native culture at the mid-Atlantic Ridge or the thalweg of the Rio Grande, but you are consciously deciding to become American. That means (inter alia) learning English, accepting the supremacy of the Constitution and the ideals embodied in it, American ideals about nepotism, the rule of law, etc.
3. If they are coming to the US solely for welfare benefits, I say no thanks. We have enough already.
With those conditions, I say, welcome. Now, get to work.

I'd add that, when too many from one culture arrive at once, cultural "colonies" tend to be formed. Probably the best example of that in the US is the greater Miami area. There are natural-born US citizens there who speak almost no English and never will. Parallels are the Turks in Germany and North Africans in France...

 

[crimsonaudio]

You have the free will to do your own thing, but are you being RESPONSIBLE in doing so?

I'm glad you asked. Prepare for TL;DR

OK, this is going to be ridiculously long - what would take just a few minutes in face-to-face conversation takes much longer when you’re worried about your thoughts and intentions being misread or misconstrued. Despite this, and know there will still be some who likely skim and cherry pick thoughts out of context, I’m going to explain where my heart is right now as a Christian. I’ve had a few people PM me over the years asking me to expound on this, likely out of morbid curiosity, so here we go…

As an aside, these thoughts are purely mine and I don’t expect anyone else to be where I am, nor do I think I’m enlightened or that I’ve figured things out and you, the reader, need to get on board with me. Also, if any of my characterizations about people offends you, I apologize - it’s not my intention, but rather a way to show you where my thinking is / was…

I live in a nice little neighborhood in a smallish town that’s what I call a ‘sub-suburb’ of Memphis. Our neighborhood is small - only 32 houses - which are built in two concentric circles with one road forming the way around. This circle is almost exactly 1/3 of a mile around, and as the neighborhood was built in an 80 year-old pecan grove and many of the trees were left as the houses built amongst the trees, there truly a picturesque beauty to it. It’s a beautiful space, with lazy curves in the road and a small gradual hill in the back - perfect for walking laps.

I’ve walked many laps around over the years, and as most people are gone during the day, working and whatnot, it’s a nice solitary time to ponder things. I’ve always found I can dig deeper in to my thoughts out there than any place in my house, and when I walk 6 or 12 laps, I have time to get past the superficial crap that floods my mind and wrestle with issues that otherwise get pushed aside in day to day life. I’ve pondered all sorts of things, from future pans and ‘what ifs’ to current events. It’s a good space to walk and think.

Backing up a bit, i was raised in Florida, a bulk of my time spent in the Orlando metro area. My parents are both Christians - loving, giving people. Fundamentally conservative, but not like the word is used today, like it’s an insult. Rather, they were fiscally and socially conservative people who loved people and were pretty moderate compared to what we often see today. Life-long republicans, they were really borderline democrats in retrospect, such as thinking that the AWB of the early 90’s was probably a good idea, etc. They disliked Clinton because of his moral failings, but not because he was a democrat, if that makes sense. This was my world and in retrospect it seems it was far simpler then…

Anyway, once I left home, I retained my parents political (and religious) views for many years. I guess in many ways I was a late-bloomer as I was really almost 30 before I really spent time evaluating my beliefs and trying to figure out what I truly believed instead of knee-jerk reactions parroting what I had grown up seeing and hearing. Over time, struggling with faith and political / legal concepts like ‘victimless crime’ I found myself sitting pretty solidly in the camp of libertarian ideology - the concept of ‘do whatever you want as long as it doesn’t impinge upon another’s rights’ just made sense to me. Sure, it’s a simplistic way of viewing things, and in many ways fell apart in the real world, but I was OK with that as every other political ideology failed in the real world as well - no matter how you slice it, our society is a mishmash of different ideas as human greed and thirst for power tarnished any pure system.

I was a pretty solid libertarian for a few years - I was always a pretty politically active person, engaging in helping people get elected in small ways here and there and ALWAYS voting. I loved to debate politics with people and found that i was actually pretty adept at ‘beating’ people by logically working through their competing view by finding faults and emphasizing how my views were better, more complete. I was an argumentative sort, guess to a point I still am, but far less now than then.

Fast forwarding to early 2012 finds me walking around the neighborhood, starting to chew on the upcoming election. It was early in the election cycle but I started wrestling with who I should vote for. At this point i should make the point that after I had spent a few years walking this loop thinking through life stuff, I started talking to God about stuff. no, not two-way conversations or anything whacky, just out in nature, enjoying the beautiful out-of-doors and talking through things. It felt like working through things like this allowed Him greater ability to steer my life - that probably sounds whacky to some people, it is what it is. Anyway, I start having these daily thought exercises, working through the upcoming elections, seeking God’s will - what do I do? Who do I vote for?

Well, for months I walked and talked, I prayed, I followed my gut. Things started changing in the way I viewed the world and I started seeing some pretty nasty thoughts buried in my heart - many of which I had closely guarded because they were ‘correct’, politically speaking - melt away. I started to realize that politics are truly a man-made game - it’s about dividing people into neat little groups in order to be able to capture their hearts more easily. Lines on the map, whether political districts or national borders - all man-made divisions. Us and them. I walked and talked, I read the bible and it really struck me one day how apolitical Jesus was. We have no idea if he was active politically or not, but there’s no record of it if he was - he was radical - it was about love changing the world, following him was first, everything else was secondary.

So as the months rolled by and the election came into focus it became obvious that I could vote one of two ways - republican or democrat. A third party vote was a waste, and though I vociferously defended it as a logical decision online and in discussions with people, I was beginning to doubt it in my heart. Why even show up if you know your candidate has no choice in winning? Third party votes have had zero effect on the political spectrum over the last few decades, why would that start now? And even if they did, which third-party candidate would i vote for? By this time I found libertarianism to be too idealistic - too individualistic. And the poll numbers showed no third-party candidate stood a chance. So I could vote for one man who is pro-abortion (pro-choice, whatever you want to call it) or another who wears magic underwear and believes the bible is only part of God’s word. So I had some more stuff to work through…

The concept of ‘lesser of two evils’ if often pulled out at election time - both sides generally using it as a rallying cry to get more voters to turn out. I used it quite a bit myself over the years, but during one these late-2012 walk-talks it occurred to me if that’s really what I’m voting for, should I even vote? Should I vote for a man who believes abortion is OK? Or for a man who wears magic underwear? Are these people truly representing my new views of the world and my place in it? The answer was simple and resounding - no.

As someone who has always participated in politics and elections I had to dive down a new, deeper rabbit hole now - why do I participate in elections? Do I have to, is it my duty? If I do, if I vote for someone I don’t believe in, am I doing more harm than good? What happens if I sit home and allow others to determine my future? What happens if I sit on my hands and just let the future come to me? What if, worst case scenario, a bunch of people like me do that same thing and laws are changed, a dictator arises, I end up losing my freedom?

These were difficult walk-talks. Lots of turmoil in me as I read the bible and found no mentions of people rising up against their oppressors, but plenty of advice for the slaves, for the downtrodden, on how to best represent Christ in a life of servitude. I kept feeling like the answer I was receiving was 'do you trust ME or do you trust yourself?'

So I decided to stay home on November 6, 2012. I spent time in prayer and even considered fighting back against what I felt I was called to do - to sit it out. It was honestly one of the toughest things I’ve ever done, as silly as that might sound. But it’s true. And remains true today.

The reality is this: I’m at a point in my life - maybe it’s wisdom, maybe it’s naivety - where I don’t worry about politics anymore. I’m completely uninvolved, and my only thoughts are about helping people, trying to show love to people. I’ve never argued with my neighbors - I’m surrounded by good people - but I certainly see bitterness and dark hearts about some political subjects in otherwise really god, loving people - and it reminds me of how I used to feel about those same things. So for me, for the way my mind works, for where my heart is - I’m apolitical now. Is that permanent? I have no idea. I just know that right now, slave or free, I’m going to live in a way that shows the heart of Jesus the best I can. I fail ALL THE TIME, but I’m getting better all the time.

Let me reiterate - I’m not suggesting anyone else should feel this way, just stating where I am now. I didn’t make this decision lightly and I’m comfortable where I stand - regardless as to how crazy you probably think I am now…

 

[crimsonaudio]

Seems to me you're some religious anarchist-socialist hybrid.

It's more about trying to rectify what I call 'the randomness of God's blessing'. We enjoy a great way of life here, built primarily by others and inherited by us by no action of our own - we didn't choose to be born here, we didn't choose our parents. If I had been born in Mexico, I'd have far fewer chances to become what I've become. And virtually all the things that have allowed me to be successful in life have come not by my own effort, but by the randomness of that blessing - relatively intelligent, strong parents who emphasized education, lots of opportunities granted by being part of this society - none of those happened due to my efforts. I could have just as easily been born to a struggling family in Ethiopia and died as an infant from starvation. Is my life any more valuable than theirs? Do I somehow deserve to be in the US more than they do?

Those are the discussion points I've tried to tackle over the years that have led me where I am...