How should an American Christian respond to ISIS?

[Displaced Bama Fan]

the rights granted to them in the un treaty would be on par as a constitutional right as treaties are considered the law of the land. whether that includes a "right" to asylum, i don't know or care as the whole "right to asylum" thing was brought up to try to say that jon's purposefully stupid analogy that was introduced to show the stupidity of the original analogy is more stupid.

So, you believe that UN treaties supersede the US Constitution?

 

[TheAccountant]

you do not have a higher obligation, but the us is a party to the un treaty on helping refugees and there are a few laws on the books relating to that. so its not really a matter of a bunch of folks feeling guilty and wanting to let people in.

Again, there is no obligation to accept each and every refugee.

I can put in an application to a job opening, the employer does not have an obligation to hire but they can not deny my application simply because I'm a gay, a Muslim, or Clay Travis. I'm not calling for discrimination based on these people, I'm saying the U.S. has no obligation to help every one out that asks.

 

[92tide]

So, you believe that UN treaties supersede the US Constitution?

where did i say it superceded the constitution? i said that treaties are considered the law of the land

Article. VI.

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

 

[92tide]

Again, there is no obligation to accept each and every refugee.

I can put in an application to a job opening, the employer does not have an obligation to hire but they can not deny my application simply because I'm a gay, a Muslim, or Clay Travis. I'm not calling for discrimination based on these people, I'm saying the U.S. has no obligation to help every one out that asks.

i didn't say there was.

 

[TheAccountant]

i didn't say there was.

But you keep going back to that UN Treaty that somehow proves something about obligation?

"Helping" doesn't have to mean accepting every refugee into the country. How much monetary and material aid do we supply to aid groups every year?

 

[bobstod]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvjMUrPUfC4

Bobstod have you heard Dr. Robert Jeffress, pastor of First Baptist Dallas? Maybe he can help you. Above is the video.

Impressive! This man makes a strong case, and raises some irrefutable points. I would recommend anyone interested in the moral question regarding ISIS to watch this video. It does not change my position regarding the moral (and practical) question of admitting refugees, but his characterization of Radical Islam as inspired by Satan is Biblical. HIs call for action against ISIS is truly expressive of the overwhelming majority of people here and in France. Unfortunately, it does little to clarify what that action should look like. For that I suggest that, as Christians, we pray for wisdom and discernment for our leaders.

I admit that I personally struggle with my view of Islam. Someone pointed out to me recently that thousands of horrendous acts have been perpetrated in the name of Christianity, and being one who studies history, I can't refute that. My reply, however, was that nowhere in the New Testament is there any word or phrase that commands Christians to kill non-Christians. Nobody can defend the Koran in that way. I think it is wrong to condemn an entire body of worshippers as evil because of the acts of a few on the fringe; but it troubles me greatly that there is such a silence from Islamic leaders throughout the world. The acts of ISIS are evil, and where is the condemnation from those who deny that the religion itself is evil?

 

[92tide]

But you keep going back to that UN Treaty that somehow proves something about obligation?

"Helping" doesn't have to mean accepting every refugee into the country. How much monetary and material aid do we supply to aid groups every year?

we do have obligations under the un treaty. as i said before, whether those obligations include asylum, i don't know and don't care.

this is the pedantic vortex about which i was worried.

 

[92tide]

The acts of ISIS are evil, and where is the condemnation from those who deny that the religion itself is evil?

yes they are, and there are tons of muslims around the world that condemn the actions of isis

 

[pluckngrit]

yes they are, and there are tons of muslims around the world that condemn the actions of isis

Well they sure aren't getting much coverage, even from MSM. Of all the millions of Muslims living in Paris, 30 showed up for a vigil put on by ......muslims.

 

[pluckngrit]

There sure weren't many at the soccer match in "westernized" Turkey the other day. On live TV with the president at the match.

 

[bobstod]

yes they are, and there are tons of muslims around the world that condemn the actions of isis

There my be Muslims speaking out in small mosques in various parts of the word; and you see one now and then, somebody you never heard of, condemning ISIS as not a part of Islam. But where is the outcry from Islamic NATIONS? Where is the voice of the faith as a whole? If you are seeing that, please point it out. To me it seems like the silence of the secretive supporter.

 

[92tide]

There my be Muslims speaking out in small mosques in various parts of the word; and you see one now and then, somebody you never heard of, condemning ISIS as not a part of Islam. But where is the outcry from Islamic NATIONS? Where is the voice of the faith as a whole? If you are seeing that, please point it out. To me it seems like the silence of the secretive supporter.

list of some of the islamic groups and nations speaking out against isis

link

 

[Gr8hope]

With Open Gates: The forced collective suicide of European nations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44vzMNG2fZc

 

[Tide1986]

i know this will open up a pedantic vortex, but we are party to a UN treaty about refugees. that treaty has a non-discrimination clause

My apologies if this is considered pedantic:

(1) The Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees places no burden on Contracting States to transport or otherwise admit refugees within their borders.

(2)

Article 9 - Provisional measures
Nothing in this Convention shall prevent a Contracting State, in time of war or other grave and exceptional circumstances, from taking provisionally measures which it considers to be essential to the national security in the case of a particular person, pending a determination by the Contracting State that that person is in fact a refugee and that the continuance of such measures is necessary in his case in the interests of national security.

(3) Contracting States are free to penalize refugees who are in a country illegally and have not come directly from a territory where their lives or freedom was threatened.

Article 31 - Refugees unlawfully in the country of refuge
1. The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of article 1, enter or are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence.

(4) Reference the Supreme Court ruling in Sale v. Haitian Centers Council, which is the law of the land and might be seen as contravening at least the spirit of the Convention.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sale_v._Haitian_Centers_Council,_Inc.

Sale v. Haitian Centers Council, 509 U.S. 155 (1993) is a case in which U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the President's executive order that all aliens intercepted on the high seas could be repatriated and that executive order was not limited by the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 or Article 33 of the United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees.

 

[Tidewater]

Just to bring some data to the discussion:
Muslims in Europe.
Countries of western Europe with the highest muslim percent of the population:
France: 7.5% (4.7 million)
Netherlands: 6.0% (1 million)
Belgium: 5.9% (0.6 million)
Germany: 5.8% (4.8 million)
Britain: 4.8% (3.0 million)

A substantial portion of Dutch muslims are (or are descended from) former gastarbeiters from Turkey (40%) or Morocco (35%). A substantial portion of French muslims are Arabs, especially north African muslims. A lot of British muslims are of Indian/Pakistani descent. These are due in part to former colonial status.

Counties with the greatest number of arrests for religiously-inspired terrorism:
France: 188
Britain: 132 (in fairness, the Brits do not record the apparent motivation of terrorists).
Belgium: 71
Germany: 17 (63.2% of German muslims are of Turkish descent)
Netherlands: 16 (38% of Dutch muslims are Turkish descent and 26% "Asian"

So, there may be a causal relationship between number of muslims and the number terrorist arrests, and the national descent of muslim immigrants might also explain something as well.

 

[DothanTide]

The acts of ISIS are evil, and where is the condemnation from those who deny that the religion itself is evil?

This could be asked about every single religious persuasion that's ever existed.

 

[cbi1972]

Well they sure aren't getting much coverage, even from MSM. Of all the millions of Muslims living in Paris, 30 showed up for a vigil put on by ......muslims.

How many Muslims do you think live in Paris?

 

[crimsonaudio]

How many Muslims do you think live in Paris?

Assuming Paris averages the same percentage of muslims as France does as a whole (~7%), that would mean some 760,000 muslims live in the Paris metro area.

 

[Jon]

How many Muslims do you think live in Paris?

If I had brown skin and lived in Paris I wouldn't go outside for a month, let alone go anywhere near a large crowd

 

[Tide1986]

How many Muslims do you think live in Paris?

Or how many people live in Paris overall?