Minnesota Players Boycotting All Football Activities After 10 Players Suspended...

[Tidewater]

The university looked at much more than just the video to reach the conclusion that her ability to consent was impaired.

I will say this. The Army has training all personnel have to go through annually. The Army is reacting to numerous incidents, and having a sexual assault in a unit, not only is a crime and can destroy someone's life, but is an incredible detractor from unit mission as people chose sides, leadership has to deal with the emotional carnage, etc. The Army's position is that an intoxicated person cannot give consent.

 

[PaulD]

I will say this. The Army has training all personnel have to go through annually. The Army is reacting to numerous incidents, and having a sexual assault in a unit, not only is a crime and can destroy someone's life, but is an incredible detractor from unit mission as people chose sides, leadership has to deal with the emotional carnage, etc. The Army's position is that an intoxicated person cannot give consent.

I was with the Air Force for 35 1/2 years as a military officer and civilian and I can assure you that the Air Force does the same thing. About 15 years ago, I was a summary court-martial (essentially a part-time judge with limited punishment power) in a sexual assault case where the victim was intoxicated. There was a clear impact on unit cohesion as most of the men took the accused's side and ostracized the victim, who decided to leave the Air Force. (She had been an exemplary airman until that time.)

 

[PaulD]

According to CBS, the players have ended their boycott and will play.

LINK

 

[NationalTitles18]

The university found that the victim was NOT incapacitated by alcohol. The investigators appear to find her story more credible than the accused. We don't know if the margin of belief is wide or very very narrow, but "preponderance of the evidence" regarding credibility seems to be the factor that tilts the balances. It is, by nature, a very subjective finding on which the whole case seems to balance. Both sides offer conflicting stories. The investigators suggest she was in shock (or offer some other explanation) where her story conflicts and that the accused were deliberately lying where their stories conflict. There is a fair amount of supposition in these subjective findings. The medical exam did not reveal any definitive evidence of an assault. It should be noted that this is not terribly unusual in some circumstances where assault does occur. To say the least, it's a somewhat murky situation and the school investigators allude to this.

It seems all involved were interviewed at some point in this. It appears the victim was interviewed multiple times (the report mentions her memories increased over time). It is unclear whether the accused were interviewed more than once or given a chance to respond to what appears to be a changing (to whatever degree) story from the victim. The report does not indicate any ability of the accused to face their accuser. There is enough for a reasonable person to at least question whether the accused are given due process under the circumstances. It does not mean the accused are innocent, but given the serious nature of the repercussions to those involved (loss of liberty and property) it should give pause and perhaps cause thoughtful consideration and debate on the broader issue of due process in such hearings.

 

[rgw]

So universities should ignore student conduct violations?

Student class conduct (ethic violations such as cheating) are not criminal. That is something wholly in the purview of the educational entity.

 

[Tidewater]

I was with the Air Force for 35 1/2 years as a military officer and civilian and I can assure you that the Air Force does the same thing. About 15 years ago, I was a summary court-martial (essentially a part-time judge with limited punishment power) in a sexual assault case where the victim was intoxicated. There was a clear impact on unit cohesion as most of the men took the accused's side and ostracized the victim, who decided to leave the Air Force. (She had been an exemplary airman until that time.)

I'm not a big fan of the annual mandatory 78 minute training (do it in Initial Entry Training and then do a shorter annual refresher), but I'm sure there have been dozens of young men who have gotten a young woman drunk, had their way with her, only to discover that, the next day, she said she was drunk and the guy gets charged with sexual assault. How many times do you have to hear "I didn't know a drunk woman couldn't legally give consent," before you start having annual mandatory training. You have a woman's life ruined. A man's life ruined and a unit severely disrupted. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
To this thread, the same applies to football players. These young men need to know that if you get a woman drunk and have your way with her, she might wake up the next morning and file charges against you. Then you're in serious trouble. Young men who are told from a young age, in effect, "You can run a 4.3 40 and bench press 275 pounds, so you can do whatever you want to do," suddenly find out that they really cannot do whatever they want to do. Good leadership dictates that teach young people beforehand.

 

[NationalTitles18]

I'm not a big fan of the annual mandatory 78 minute training (do it in Initial Entry Training and then do a shorter annual refresher), but I'm sure there have been dozens of young men who have gotten a young woman drunk, had their way with her, only to discover that, the next day, she said she was drunk and the guy gets charged with sexual assault. How many times do you have to hear "I didn't know a drunk woman couldn't legally give consent," before you start having annual mandatory training. You have a woman's life ruined. A man's life ruined and a unit severely disrupted. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
To this thread, the same applies to football players. These young men need to know that if you get a woman drunk and have your way with her, she might wake up the next morning and file charges against you. Then you're in serious trouble. Young men who are told from a young age, in effect, "You can run a 4.3 40 and bench press 275 pounds, so you can do whatever you want to do," suddenly find out that they really cannot do whatever they want to do. Good leadership dictates that teach young people beforehand.

I agree with you completely. But this young lady got drunk on her own and the university found she was not incapable of giving consent because of alcohol.

 

[NationalTitles18]

Student class conduct (ethic violations such as cheating) are not criminal. That is something wholly in the purview of the educational entity.

The specific codes of conduct judged to be violated included sexual assault, sexual harassment, and in at least one case giving false information. I mentioned above the subjective and perhaps arbitrary nature of the latter finding. Yes, even state schools are given wide latitude, but they still must adhere to some minimum requirements and courts have only given case by case rulings regarding additional due process requirements. Generally, consensual behavior between adult students is off limits for discipline at a public university. Again, some latitude is given, but these were obviously serious accusations and findings involving sexual assault and harassment, not academic misconduct (which ironically may nave afforded the students more due process than they were given depending on school policy) and not general conduct or moral clause violations.

 

[JBama_in_PCOLA]

The burden isn't on her to say no. She has to clearly consent (and be unimpaired when she does so).

Seems like it is possible that she was impaired. Still though it leaves room for doubt which is why I think the DA didn't continue with it.


[emoji208]Sent from my iPhone [emoji336]using Tapatalk Pro

 

[bamabelle1991]

There were also some videos that suggested that she was a willing participant. I read the 80 page report and was SHOCKED at what all went on and how it seemed that most of the people, the "victim" included, seemed fine with what went on. She waited 2-3 days before going to the hospital--which I find strange. I wonder if the sexual assault story came about after the videos started making the rounds and made her look like a complete tramp? Her story kept changing which was another thing I thought to be strange. I have to think that if a woman started screaming and fighting back that SOMEONE would hear her and would help. At one point, there were more than 20 people in that apartment. She drank 5-6 shots of 100 proof vodka which would totally incapacitate most women for several hours. Her lack of fighting back could be due to that, even though it was determined during the investigation that she may not have been as drunk as she claimed. The police conducted what seemed like a very thorough investigation, including reading the emails on the freshman football player system. They viewed all of the videos made that night and talked to witnesses. Most of the players involved even admitted to having sexual contact with her. The police have the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard while the school has the "preponderance of the evidence" standard. There is a huge difference. I don't think the DA could have gotten a guilty verdict and for that reason, they didn't want to put the girl through the trial. Plus, she may not have wanted it. What really bothered me is that the EOCC investigation found, through that freshman email system, that there may have been multiple instances where girls were invited to apartments for nefarious purposes. Obviously, that is concerning to the school. I think the University did the right thing suspending them based on the Code of Conduct. I also think they have ZERO obligation to explain themselves to anyone other than the players suspended. It's a horrible situation every way you look at it.

 

[drwho]

Student class conduct (ethic violations such as cheating) are not criminal. That is something wholly in the purview of the educational entity.

My point exactly.

 

[Go Bama]

There were also some videos that suggested that she was a willing participant. I read the 80 page report and was SHOCKED at what all went on and how it seemed that most of the people, the "victim" included, seemed fine with what went on. She waited 2-3 days before going to the hospital--which I find strange. I wonder if the sexual assault story came about after the videos started making the rounds and made her look like a complete tramp? Her story kept changing which was another thing I thought to be strange. I have to think that if a woman started screaming and fighting back that SOMEONE would hear her and would help. At one point, there were more than 20 people in that apartment. She drank 5-6 shots of 100 proof vodka which would totally incapacitate most women for several hours. Her lack of fighting back could be due to that, even though it was determined during the investigation that she may not have been as drunk as she claimed. The police conducted what seemed like a very thorough investigation, including reading the emails on the freshman football player system. They viewed all of the videos made that night and talked to witnesses. Most of the players involved even admitted to having sexual contact with her. The police have the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard while the school has the "preponderance of the evidence" standard. There is a huge difference. I don't think the DA could have gotten a guilty verdict and for that reason, they didn't want to put the girl through the trial. Plus, she may not have wanted it. What really bothered me is that the EOCC investigation found, through that freshman email system, that there may have been multiple instances where girls were invited to apartments for nefarious purposes. Obviously, that is concerning to the school. I think the University did the right thing suspending them based on the Code of Conduct. I also think they have ZERO obligation to explain themselves to anyone other than the players suspended. It's a horrible situation every way you look at it.

I read the report also though I was skimming after reading the text messages. You'll recall the university was not privy to the 90 second video, only the short ones. I can't assume it was consensual based on 5 second videos.

Like you, I was shocked and appalled at the behavior of all involved, including the alleged victim. But at some point the young men have got to realize that they can't keep sending people through the door. To make matters worse, there was a high school recruit there. These men absolutely knew what they were doing was wrong, whether or not it was illegal. The girl was eventually overwhelmed.

 

[JBama_in_PCOLA]

There were also some videos that suggested that she was a willing participant. I read the 80 page report and was SHOCKED at what all went on and how it seemed that most of the people, the "victim" included, seemed fine with what went on. She waited 2-3 days before going to the hospital--which I find strange. I wonder if the sexual assault story came about after the videos started making the rounds and made her look like a complete tramp? Her story kept changing which was another thing I thought to be strange. I have to think that if a woman started screaming and fighting back that SOMEONE would hear her and would help. At one point, there were more than 20 people in that apartment. She drank 5-6 shots of 100 proof vodka which would totally incapacitate most women for several hours. Her lack of fighting back could be due to that, even though it was determined during the investigation that she may not have been as drunk as she claimed. The police conducted what seemed like a very thorough investigation, including reading the emails on the freshman football player system. They viewed all of the videos made that night and talked to witnesses. Most of the players involved even admitted to having sexual contact with her. The police have the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard while the school has the "preponderance of the evidence" standard. There is a huge difference. I don't think the DA could have gotten a guilty verdict and for that reason, they didn't want to put the girl through the trial. Plus, she may not have wanted it. What really bothered me is that the EOCC investigation found, through that freshman email system, that there may have been multiple instances where girls were invited to apartments for nefarious purposes. Obviously, that is concerning to the school. I think the University did the right thing suspending them based on the Code of Conduct. I also think they have ZERO obligation to explain themselves to anyone other than the players suspended. It's a horrible situation every way you look at it.

I read the report also though I was skimming after reading the text messages. You'll recall the university was not privy to the 90 second video, only the short ones. I can't assume it was consensual based on 5 second videos.

Like you, I was shocked and appalled at the behavior of all involved, including the alleged victim. But at some point the young men have got to realize that they can't keep sending people through the door. To make matters worse, there was a high school recruit there. These men absolutely knew what they were doing was wrong, whether or not it was illegal. The girl was eventually overwhelmed.

Thanks to you guys for this. It really brings things into perspective for me. Now, I do fully agree with the University and the DA. They should have been suspended and no charges filed against them.


[emoji208]Sent from my iPhone [emoji336]using Tapatalk Pro

 

[DrollTide]

Allow me to relate a longish story, that, I promise, will eventually tie in. The story is about how we learn through experience to gradually become more sympathetic to our fellow humans, and instead of just standing by, to actively engage in times of need and improve lives.

Couple years ago I was changing flights in ATL, the place was a zoo. I was filing into a restroom. Two guys ahead of me in a jostling line was an old fella, clearly lost and addled and confused. I had the "humanity" not to push past him, to give him space to orient himself and be about his business. I congratulated myself on my patience.

But the guy in front of me said to him, "Hey there, friend, can I help?". He took the guy by the arm, lead him into a stall, and gave him a full service number two rest stop. Bless him for that. I learned something that day, which is, sometimes it is your turn to help a guy. Sometimes it is just your turn. This had never previously even occurred to me.

Back to these football players. This unfortunate girl needed protection from a group for whom the idea of protection from themselves seemed unnecessary. Why, they may have thought, would anybody need protecting from a consensual act. Given a choice between participating, standing by passively, or leaving, none of those young men thought fit to step up and protect a drunk girl from a drunk group. And she badly needed that guy to be there and do the right thing and he wasnt there.

 

[Tidewater]

Allow me to relate a longish story, that, I promise, will eventually tie in. The story is about how we learn through experience to gradually become more sympathetic to our fellow humans, and instead of just standing by, to actively engage in times of need and improve lives.

Couple years ago I was changing flights in ATL, the place was a zoo. I was filing into a restroom. Two guys ahead of me in a jostling line was an old fella, clearly lost and addled and confused. I had the "humanity" not to push past him, to give him space to orient himself and be about his business. I congratulated myself on my patience.

But the guy in front of me said to him, "Hey there, friend, can I help?". He took the guy by the arm, lead him into a stall, and gave him a full service number two rest stop. Bless him for that. I learned something that day, which is, sometimes it is your turn to help a guy. Sometimes it is just your turn. This had never previously even occurred to me.

Back to these football players. This unfortunate girl needed protection from a group for whom the idea of protection from themselves seemed unnecessary. Why, they may have thought, would anybody need protecting from a consensual act. Given a choice between participating, standing by passively, or leaving, none of those young men thought fit to step up and protect a drunk girl from a drunk group. And she badly needed that guy to be there and do the right thing and he wasnt there.

The Army training I mentioned requires military members to intervene to prevent sexual assault.
If a soldier appears to be intoxicated (on base, off base, doesn't matter) and someone appears to be hustling them "upstairs" if you will, soldiers are obligated to step in and get the intoxicated soldier to a safe place. You cannot just turn a blind eye and let something like this happen.

 

[Tide1986]

The burden isn't on her to say no. She has to clearly consent (and be unimpaired when she does so).

Can the male be impaired as well? Or does impairment only apply to the female?

 

[seebell]

Can the male be impaired as well? Or does impairment only apply to the female?

I read your posts. Obviously a male can be impaired!!:biggrin:

 

[bamabelle1991]

I read the report also though I was skimming after reading the text messages. You'll recall the university was not privy to the 90 second video, only the short ones. I can't assume it was consensual based on 5 second videos.

Like you, I was shocked and appalled at the behavior of all involved, including the alleged victim. But at some point the young men have got to realize that they can't keep sending people through the door. To make matters worse, there was a high school recruit there. These men absolutely knew what they were doing was wrong, whether or not it was illegal. The girl was eventually overwhelmed.

You are correct, the school didn't see the 90 second video, but I believe the police did. The school also didn't have to conclude a sexual assault occurred, just that behavior that violated the Code of Conduct.

Go back to the last few pages of the report and there is a chart which tells you what violations applied to each player. I think only two or three of them were indicated for possible sexual assault. Almost all of them indicated for sexual harassment.

 

[bama2112]

You are correct, the school didn't see the 90 second video, but I believe the police did. The school also didn't have to conclude a sexual assault occurred, just that behavior that violated the Code of Conduct.

Go back to the last few pages of the report and there is a chart which tells you what violations applied to each player. I think only two or three of them were indicated for possible sexual assault. Almost all of them indicated for sexual harassment.

All I can say is that if any of you have children. How would you feel if this were your daughter. That's the bottom line here. I love how I can't space my words here.

Oh yes I can go back after I post it and fix it. I thought this was resolved?

 

[B1GTide]

All I can say is that if any of you have children. How would you feel if this were your daughter. That's the bottom line here. I love how I can't space my words here.

Oh yes I can go back after I post it and fix it. I thought this was resolved?

I don't have a daughter, but if I did and she went into a room intending on sleeping with more than one partner (and that was her intent before she got drunk), I would not blame the drunken men in the room for what came next.