Politics: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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selmaborntidefan

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I'll make a $100 donation to the Democratic Presidential candidate (regardless of whom that is) if Trump is removed from office and Pence begins his post-oath speech with, "Our long national embarrassment is now over."
 

Bazza

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NOTE:
-snip-
I'm getting checked for some stuff on October 7 as part of my 'damn boy, you're 50' checkup.

=============================================

-snip-
Best wishes to you, Bill. Please keep us posted.

For some context, I'm taking my 96 year old Mom to her doctor for her annual checkup tomorrow.

So in reality...damn boy...you are not all that old! :)
 

92tide

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Exactly.



Not much would surprise me anymore.



Congress decides what behaviors constitute "high crimes and misdemeanors" as well as what evidence is sufficient to impeach and/or convict. It seems we could have video and audio of Trump engaging in scenario one or worse and some would not care.



Imagine that. That tells me that the whistleblower is not in on any potential ruse since the propaganda machine is in full swing against him/her. That idea can be thrown out.
they seem to be attempting the octopus ink strategy to spin.
 

92tide

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Oh, I agree - it would be somewhat surprising, but then again, not so much.

I think we can all agree that, like it or not, Trump has outmaneuvered the dems since 2016. He's done things, said things, tweeted things that few politiicans would ever consider, due to thoughts of political suicide, yet here he is.

Please don't mistake that for admiration - it's not - but he's stayed ahead of the dems since the election. I just don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that this was planted in order to embarrass the dems and make them gun shy in the future regarding impeachment - akin to inducing them into doing it on his terms, as he knows it's a one-shot deal.
you can say outmaneuvered, or you can say has brazenly ignored the law and is being enabled/shielded by the gop in the senate, so has gotten away with it. it cost them the house in 2018 which has led to where we are. and i think the impeachment inquiry will cover a lot more than just this ukraine/whistleblower stuff. that was just the straw that broke the camel's back for those who were on the fence about impeachment.

just judging by the responses so far, it doesn't seem like the repubs/trump actually expected pelosi to pull the trigger and they were caught with their pants around their ankles.

 

Go Bama

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If this is a trap set by the GOP, my money says it was orchestrated by Putin. I just don’t believe Trump or his cronies are smart enough to dream this up. OTOH, I don’t think it’s a trap.
 

92tide

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If this is a trap set by the GOP, my money says it was orchestrated by Putin. I just don’t believe Trump or his cronies are smart enough to dream this up. OTOH, I don’t think it’s a trap.
i don't think putin is that smart either. if you follow the links earlier in the thread, the whole biden thing was initially floated by the russians in 2014, and it (imo) got resurrected in an attempt to smear biden since he is the front runner and quickly got out of hand.
 

jthomas666

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Scenario 1: Trump bribed Ukraine quid pro quo.
Scenario 2: Trump discussed Biden situation with Ukraine but definitely no quid pro quo.
Scenario 3: Scenario 2 but with quid pro quo left up to interpretation.

Scenario 1 comment: Agree with posters above. Trump has a history of withholding tax returns he believes may hurt his election and now re-election bids. Why would he so quickly (with senate republicans) push to release this if there was a smoking gun? This does not seem right.

Scenario 2 comment: Trump discussed Biden situation as his duty to make sure Biden had not broken any laws (commendable) or to potentially gain fodder for a general election (sounds more likely). It would be difficult to prove it as a high crime, particularly with the argument that he was just fulfilling his duty.

Scenario 3 comment: Vague language about Biden and foreign aid money in the same conversation that will be described as proof of conspiracy by those who want impeachment, but without a clear quid pro quo for those who do not. Most likely scenario. Trump would not be removed from office by the senate, and he would come out stronger for the general election.

The notes of the conversation will be like minutes of a board meeting. Not verbatim, but inclusive of the topics of discussion. Only in scenario 1 does he get removed and I find it unlikely that it would be in the notes as such. We'll see how it plays out.
Here's how I see it:

For this process, "reasonable doubt" isn't the standard; the standard is, basically, "Just how stupid do you think we are?" And yes, in many cases, the answer is "well, you seem pretty damned stupid to me..."

Here are they key questions:

1. When did Trump decide to suspend financial aid to Ukraine?
2. When was the Ukrainian president told? The closer to the phone call, the more incriminating.
3. What reason was given to the Ukranian president? Any variant of "I don't know" or "President Trump will discuss it with you" or "You'll have to discuss it with the president" = smoking gun

Then we get to the actual phone call, which God knows what that will be, because Trump at times is more incoherent than Guiliani--which is saying something. And very simply, anything other than the complete transcript is unacceptable, as the DoJ simply cannot be trusted.
 

NationalTitles18

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NOTE:
I don't want to make this thread about me in any way, but there are two reasons I haven't posted near so much lately:
1) I took a much needed vacation and got in the rest of the 50 states I'd missed
2) I've been suddenly having some very weird problems with my memory, which as you can imagine is probably far more frightening for me than for the average person
I'm getting checked for some stuff on October 7 as part of my 'damn boy, you're 50' checkup.

=============================================

Predictions from anyone here on how this plays out?
Politics really is like college football in a lot of ways.


PREDICTION ON 9/25/19
House? Impeaches in a mostly party line vote (might be some Rs in toss-up districts that vote for it)
Senate? Acquits in a mostly party line vote
2020? Dems keep the House, win the White House, win the Senate
Eat well, get rest, reduce stress, and good luck. Hope all is well.
 

Bamafaninco1

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Here's how I see it:

Then we get to the actual phone call, which God knows what that will be, because Trump at times is more incoherent than Guiliani--which is saying something. And very simply, anything other than the complete transcript is unacceptable, as the DoJ simply cannot be trusted.
The problem with this part is they don't record presidential phone call since Nixon, it is just people listening in and taking notes. This may be nothing or something depending on who was taking notes at the time.
 

NationalTitles18

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CNN is reporting that Trump asked Ukraine to work with Crazy G and Box of Rocks on investigating Biden.

This collusion with a foreign power to interfere with the next election is just a continuation of what he did in the last election.

Impeach his ass.
 

TrueCrimson7

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Initial thoughts after transcript release:
1. There is no audio. The transcript is the most complete version of the conversation. It is what it is.
2. If Trump tied money to info, that would have been the smoking gun. No matter how
much people want to make the tie, there is no tie there.
3. Trump told the Ukraine official what he has heard about Biden and what Biden bragged about in interfering in an Ukranian investigation for his son and asked them to look into it.

So it begs the question: Does a challenger to the President get immunity? The President is looking into a potential crime that Biden bragged about. He should look into possible interference if it did occur, no matter who it is...otherwise anyone can commit a foreign crime and then run for President and just claim if the president looks into it it is politcally motivated. It is implication to say this was only for Trump's political gain. Trump is discussing this issue and its implications for the country. He said do "us" a favor because "our country" has been through a lot. He did not say do "us" a favor because "I'm" running against him. He's asking them to work with US officials to look into a crime possibly committed by an American. This will not placate those who hate Trump, but this is not enough so far to remove a President from office.
 
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CharminTide

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Interesting memo, even if it's not an actual transcript. (Here's a WaPo link to the whole thing)

Cutting through the BS:

Trump: Hi. Congrats on winning your election.

Zelenskyy: Thanks! Allow me to butter you up to a degree that embarrasses me personally.

Trump: That's awful nice of you to say. Hey look, we do a lot for Ukraine. We spend a lot of effort and time on you guys.

Zelenskyy: You are 1000% right. And we really appreciate it. We can't wait to buy more Javelins from the U.S. and are ready to cooperate for the next steps.

Trump: Great! Look, I'd like you to do us a favor.

Zelenskyy: Sure, what is it?

Trump: I've been told Hillary's email server is in Ukraine, and also there was a really suspicious thing with Joe Biden and I was wondering if you could investigate those things.

Zelenskyy: Yes, we will definitely take care of that.

Trump: That's great. I'll have my personal attorney, Rudy Guilliani, and the Attorney General, William Barr, contact you so we can get to the bottom of this.

Zelenskyy: Of course. I will appoint my own prosecutor to look into the specific situation. I hope we can cooperate a lot. Also, I stayed in Trump Tower.

Trump: Fantastic. Bye.
 

selmaborntidefan

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If this is a trap set by the GOP, my money says it was orchestrated by Putin. I just don’t believe Trump or his cronies are smart enough to dream this up. OTOH, I don’t think it’s a trap.
If what was a trap set by the GOP?

Getting Pelosi to begin impeachment proceedings?

Or getting Trump to be stupid?


Or what?

(I'm sorry, I'm just not understanding the context of your post).
 

NationalTitles18

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Interesting memo, even if it's not an actual transcript. (Here's a WaPo link to the whole thing)

Cutting through the BS:

Trump: Hi. Congrats on winning your election.

Zelenskyy: Thanks! Allow me to butter you up to a degree that embarrasses me personally.

Trump: That's awful nice of you to say. Hey look, we do a lot for Ukraine. We spend a lot of effort and time on you guys.

Zelenskyy: You are 1000% right. And we really appreciate it. We can't wait to buy more Javelins from the U.S. and are ready to cooperate for the next steps.

Trump: Great! Look, I'd like you to do us a favor.

Zelenskyy: Sure, what is it?

Trump: I've been told Hillary's email server is in Ukraine, and also there was a really suspicious thing with Joe Biden and I was wondering if you could investigate those things.

Zelenskyy: Yes, we will definitely take care of that.

Trump: That's great. I'll have my personal attorney, Rudy Guilliani, and the Attorney General, William Barr, contact you so we can get to the bottom of this.

Zelenskyy: Of course. I will appoint my own prosecutor to look into the specific situation. I hope we can cooperate a lot. Also, I stayed in Trump Tower.

Trump: Fantastic. Bye.
No personal gain for the president there.
 

CharminTide

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Initial thoughts after transcript release:
1. There is no audio. The transcript is the most complete version of the conversation. It is what it is.
2. If Trump tied money to info, that would have been the smoking gun. No matter how
much people want to make the tie, there is no tie there.
3. Trump told the Ukraine official what he has heard about Biden and what Biden bragged about in interfering in an Ukranian investigation for his son and asked them to look into it.

So it begs the question: Does a challenger to the President get immunity? The President is looking into a potential crime that Biden bragged about. He should look into possible interference if it did occur, no matter who it is...otherwise anyone can commit a foreign crime and then run for President and just claim if the president looks into it it is politcally motivated. It is implication to say this was only for Trump's political gain. Trump is discussing this issue and its implications for the country. He said do "us" a favor because "our country" has been through a lot. He did not say do "us" a favor because "I'm" running against him. He's asking them to work with US officials to look into a crime possibly committed by an American. This will not placate those who hate Trump, but this is not enough so far to remove a President from office.
It was never going to be a smoking gun. The whistleblower mentioned multiple conversations, and this one is removed from all context. Congress needs to hear the entire complaint, and the context is what the administration is illegally hiding.
 

92tide

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If what was a trap set by the GOP?

Getting Pelosi to begin impeachment proceedings?

Or getting Trump to be stupid?


Or what?

(I'm sorry, I'm just not understanding the context of your post).
there are a lot of folks earlier in the thread worrying that this whole thing is just a set up by the repubs (ala the bush awol stuff with rather) to embarrass and undermine the dems.
 
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