Fair Pay to Play Act Signed into Law in CA

KrAzY3

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Very credible possibilities. What might be done to mitigate those risks?
Nothing, that's the problem. I'd be for something like a proposal that allows limited use of likeness (jerseys for instance) and in return provided something like loss of future earnings insurance automatically, something with a very real financial value.

The way California went about this was not just to turn amateur sports into pros, but without the sort of protections that have been in place for years with professional sports. They all have some things like max contracts, salary caps, luxury taxes, etc... I was for stipends, but stipends were built off existing structure and done in a controlled manner. This by the very nature of the law is chaos.

If it succeeds, this will have bidding wars on select players. The counter to that is to say that's what they are worth, but it will be only one of many tremors going through the sport. The first thing I thought of though, when I heard about this was that recruiting a player will involve a meeting with sponsors and what each school's package will consist of. The argument would be that players get paid under the table anyway, but let me make a comparison. Holding happens on almost every play right? It doesn't get called that often, but it's still a rule they enforce sometimes. Imagine if California passed a law saying a flag for holding was illegal. What would that do to alter the game of football?

The immediate problem though is this is limitless. What happens if Jerry Jones decides he wants Arkansas to have the top recruiting class? Phil Knight at Oregon? There are billionaires out there, that if they feel so inclined can do what ever they want. This for the record can not go on in perpetuity, it would simply open up fissures that will swallows parts of the sport. Some people who choose not to play this game will take their money they have been up to that point donating to fund college athletics, and walk away.

The sport will literally contract. If for no other reason than because smaller schools will see all their top recruits, the diamonds in the rough enticed away with better endorsement offers. This will render every lesser school non-competitive in perpetuity, how can a Tulane keep anyone good when LSU will obviously have far better sponsors? Some fans will walk away, boosters will walk away, teams will vanish. Some imagine this utopia of players making more money and everything else remaining the same, but that's simply impossible.

On one hand this is about amateur and professionals, and a problem simply solved by making sure these athletes have professional alternatives. That's all this needs, be amateur if you want to be, be pro if you want to be. However, that's not what this is. This is a destructive act, there's no way around it. Yes, of course some might benefit, but when you tear something down usually what you get left with is rubble. Yes, there are ways to better things if done with caution and careful, measured actions. This is not that though, it's not merely ripping off a band-aid, it is surgery with a chainsaw.

One reason people love college sports and college football in particular is because it's not professional sports. These people are here because they want to be. I have called for people to take into consideration that these players, kickers, QBs, whoever they may be are not compensated professional and as such they are more worthy of our respect, admiration, and for instance us staying and cheering for four quarters. That's always been a consideration of mine, and I'm not the only one. The more we turn college football into something else, the less special and enticing it becomes. 100,000 people don't pack into a stadium to watch minor league football... We can have what we have now, or we can have something else. We can't make one thing be both.
 
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B1GTide

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Edit- I still wonder how the social aspect of this will play into it from the locker room dynamics to public opinion. By that I mean having players on the team (even if it's just four or five of the total 85) making money and being able to support their families. Yet there will be a lot of other players whose talents do not garner endorsements that are from poor backgrounds having to go through the same grueling practices, continuing to live with "more month than money" and their families continue to struggle. Will they not demand something better as well?

Will our overall sports society not begin chiming in and saying "the other players deserve something"? Possibly opening the door to a "revenue sharing" type model like pro's? Juts random thoughts...
This would be a players union problem to solve, and I can see many ways of doing so without touching school revenue. For instance, a portion of any individual player income could be placed into a pool for those less fortunate. This could be written in such a way that all income goes into a pool, so individual players would not get individual deals but teams or conferences would get deals within established limits, with all income going into the pool for equal distribution.

Lots of possibilities.
 

KrAzY3

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Sorry, I stopped reading here. There are many options.
Not based on the California law, no. If you somehow stop the abomination you can hopefully take some other course of action, but otherwise it's chaos. Thanks for your indulgence though, the rest was just me going on about how great Ohio State was and how I hoped Fields won the Heisman anyway. Nothing to see there.
 

Bamabuzzard

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This would be a players union problem to solve, and I can see many ways of doing so without touching school revenue. For instance, a portion of any individual player income could be placed into a pool for those less fortunate. This could be written in such a way that all income goes into a pool, so individual players would not get individual deals but teams or conferences would get deals within established limits, with all income going into the pool for equal distribution.

Lots of possibilities.
This reminds me of something....hmmm. Would Tidefans now combine the NON-SPORTS (mostly religion and politics) Forum with the Football Forum? LOL!
 

B1GTide

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Not based on the California law, no.
Come on. You know that the CA law is not the end of this. That can't be your starting point in a meaningful conversation. Well, I guess that it can be, but why would anyone want to read a rant where are some more reasonable ideas out there?
 

81usaf92

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Nothing, that's the problem. I'd be for something like a proposal that allows limited use of likeness (jerseys for instance) and in return provided something like loss of future earnings insurance automatically, something with a very real financial value.

The way California went about this was not just to turn amateur pros, but without the sort of protections that have been in place for years with professional sports. They all have some things like max contracts, salary caps, luxury taxes, etc... I was for stipends, but stipends were built off existing structure and done in a controlled manner. This by the very nature of the law is chaos.

If it succeeds, this will have bidding wars on select players. The counter to that is to say that's what they are worth, but it will be only one of many tremors going through the sport. The first thing I thought of though, when I heard about this was that recruiting a player will involve a meeting with sponsors and what each school's package will consist of. The argument would be that players get paid under the table anyway, but let me make a comparison. Holding happens on almost every play right? It doesn't get called that often, but it's still a rule they enforce sometimes. Imagine if California passed a law saying a flag for holding was illegal. What would that do to alter the game of football?

The problem though is this is limitless. What happens if Jerry Jones decides he wants Arkansas to have the top recruiting class? Phil Knight at Oregon? There are billionaires out there, that if they feel so inclined can do what ever they want. This for the record can not go on in perpetuity, it would simply open up fissures that will swallows parts of the sport. Some people who choose not to play this game will take their money they have been up to that point donating to fund college athletics, and walk away.

The sport will literally contract. If for no other reason than because smaller schools will see all their top recruits, the diamonds in the rough enticed away with better endorsement offers. This will render every lesser school non-competitive in perpetuity, how can a Tulane keep anyone good when LSU will obviously have far better sponsors? Some fans will walk away, boosters will walk away, teams will vanish. Some imagine this utopia of players making more money and everything else remaining the same, but that's simply impossible.

On one hand this is about amateur and professionals, and a problem simply solved by making sure these athletes have professional alternatives. That's all this needs, be amateur if you want to be, be pro if you want to be. However, that's not what this is. This is a destructive act, there's no way around it. Yes, of course some might benefit, but when you tear something down usually what you get left with is rubble. Yes, there are ways to better things if done with caution and careful, measured actions. This is not that though, it's not merely ripping off a band-aid, it is surgery with a chainsaw.

One reason people love college sports and college football in particular is because it's not professional sports. These people are here because they want to be. I have called for people to take into consideration that these players, kickers, QBs, whoever they may be are not compensated professional and as such they are more worthy of our respect, admiration, and for instance us staying and cheering for four quarters. That's always been a consideration of mine, and I'm not the only one. The more we turn college football into something else, the less special and enticing it becomes. 100,000 people don't pack into a stadium to watch minor league football... We can have what we have now, or we can have something else. We can't make one thing be both.
1) Phil Knight’s name has been thrown out way way way too much in this thread. I really want some of you to guess which teams make Phil Knight the most money in the NCAA. So why would Phil Knight risk a mass brand departure from 80% of the NCAA teams for an Oregon or Stanford championship?

2) This whole thing is to Expose the NCAA for allowing all of these endorsement games and leagues to happen but they quickly pull the plug on players having profits off of it.

3) The CA Bill was more to get the ball rolling towards Congress to force the NCAA to make a compromise instead of staying in its ineffective and hypocritical form it is now. Point is don’t expect every extreme part in the CA bill to stand

4) College football will still be college football at the end of the day, it just can’t keep lying about being an amateur sport anymore. It isn’t high school football.
 
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B1GTide

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This reminds me of something....hmmm. Would Tidefans now combine the NON-SPORTS (mostly religion and politics) Forum with the Football Forum? LOL!
These players are currently getting nothing, so would likely be willing to consider something which gives them something while also helping their teammates. They would have a hand in writing the rules. Young people are altruistic, so far more likely to consider something like this than us old folks.
 

DogPatch

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These players are currently getting nothing, so would likely be willing to consider something which gives them something while also helping their teammates. They would have a hand in writing the rules. Young people are altruistic, so far more likely to consider something like this than us old folks.
They are not " getting nothing." They have far more advantages than the average student. Also, as someone who works daily with UA college students, both athletes and non, they are not that altruistic overall.
 

B1GTide

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They are not " getting nothing." They have far more advantages than the average student. Also, as someone who works daily with UA college students, both athletes and non, they are not that altruistic overall.
They are receiving no income for the items being discussed in this thread. Better? :rolleye2:
 

KrAzY3

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These players are currently getting nothing, so would likely be willing to consider something which gives them something while also helping their teammates. They would have a hand in writing the rules. Young people are altruistic, so far more likely to consider something like this than us old folks.
First off, they are literally getting cash stipends. Secondly, that is only part of a benefits package worth in the range of 90K annually. That doesn't even fully take into account the use of facilities, coaching, etc... for instance Alabama players get training and preparation which empirical evidence shows leads to them literally making millions more when they go pro.

That's not nothing.

Secondly (may be this isn't for you though since it's you know, more than one paragraph so TLDR), last week my wife came home and told me a story. She was out to dinner with a businesswoman she knows, an immigrant who started her own company. Her daughter had always wanted to be a cheerleader, but she always thought it wasn't the right choice and chose for her to do dance classes and that sort of thing instead. Well, her daughter enrolls at Pitt and decides to try out for cheerleading. The mother was at first hesitant, but seem become enthralled by the whole thing. She was incredibly impressed by all the extra assistance available to cheerleaders. All the perks, the tutoring and everything place to help them succeed.

Then she went to a game. She was amazed by the whole thing. Overwhelmed, someone from a country that doesn't have college football and here she is enjoying this great spectacle. She loved it. I saw a picture of the whole family decked out in Pitt gear. You know one thing that she didn't say though? Despite the fact that her daughter was a trained dancer doing something at a high level that people are in fact paid professionally for as well. She didn't complain once that her daughter wasn't getting paid...
 

B1GTide

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First off, they are literally getting cash stipends. Secondly, that is only part of a benefits package worth in the range of 90K annually. That doesn't even fully take into account the use of facilities, coaching, etc... for instance Alabama players get training and preparation which empirical evidence shows leads to them literally making millions more when they go pro.

That's not nothing.

Secondly (may be this isn't for you though since it's you know, more than one paragraph so TLDR), last week my wife came home and told me a story. She was out to dinner with a businesswoman she knows, an immigrant who started her own company. Her daughter had always wanted to be a cheerleader, but she always thought it wasn't the right choice and chose for her to do dance classes and that sort of thing instead. Well, her daughter enrolls at Pitt and decides to try out for cheerleading. The mother was at first hesitant, but seem become enthralled by the whole thing. She was incredibly impressed by all the extra assistance available to cheerleaders. All the perks, the tutoring and everything place to help them succeed.

Then she went to a game. She was amazed by the whole thing. Overwhelmed, someone from a country that doesn't have college football and here she is enjoying this great spectacle. She loved it. I saw a picture of the whole family decked out in Pitt gear. You know one thing that she didn't say though? Despite the fact that her daughter was a trained dancer doing something at a high level that people are in fact paid professionally for as well. She didn't complain once that her daughter wasn't getting paid...
Awesome - totally off topic, but thanks for sharing.
 

RollTide_HTTR

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First off, they are literally getting cash stipends. Secondly, that is only part of a benefits package worth in the range of 90K annually. That doesn't even fully take into account the use of facilities, coaching, etc... for instance Alabama players get training and preparation which empirical evidence shows leads to them literally making millions more when they go pro.

That's not nothing.

Secondly (may be this isn't for you though since it's you know, more than one paragraph so TLDR), last week my wife came home and told me a story. She was out to dinner with a businesswoman she knows, an immigrant who started her own company. Her daughter had always wanted to be a cheerleader, but she always thought it wasn't the right choice and chose for her to do dance classes and that sort of thing instead. Well, her daughter enrolls at Pitt and decides to try out for cheerleading. The mother was at first hesitant, but seem become enthralled by the whole thing. She was incredibly impressed by all the extra assistance available to cheerleaders. All the perks, the tutoring and everything place to help them succeed.

Then she went to a game. She was amazed by the whole thing. Overwhelmed, someone from a country that doesn't have college football and here she is enjoying this great spectacle. She loved it. I saw a picture of the whole family decked out in Pitt gear. You know one thing that she didn't say though? Despite the fact that her daughter was a trained dancer doing something at a high level that people are in fact paid professionally for as well. She didn't complain once that her daughter wasn't getting paid...

Are cheerleading and playing football in college at all comparable in this discussion?
 

BamaInBham

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The following is response to the article not to 81usa92.

IMO, there needs to be more recognition of a need to protect the collegiate version of the sport. All that most talk about are the players but the universities and the collegiate version of the sport need to be protected. Players are not the only interested parties. Primarily speaking of this not distorting or perverting the recruiting landscape or roster management. I know that some of this is implied, but IMO, it needs to be more explicitly recognized.
 

B1GTide

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The following is response to the article not to 81usa92.

IMO, there needs to be more recognition of a need to protect the collegiate version of the sport. All that most talk about are the players but the universities and the collegiate version of the sport need to be protected. Players are not the only interested parties. Primarily speaking of this not distorting or perverting the recruiting landscape or roster management. I know that some of this is implied, but IMO, it needs to be more explicitly recognized.
There is no sport without the players, so isn't something to protect the interests of the players also protecting the interests of the sport? Remember, collegiate sports existed before the NCAA came up with these rules. It has existed through many generations of changes to their rules. It will survive these changes.
 

KrAzY3

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Are cheerleading and playing football in college at all comparable in this discussion?
Is cheerleading for the college football team relevant to college football? Of course it is, it's part of the landscape.

People who somehow miss the big picture, what all actually goes into the spectacle are either ignorance or callused. This is about college sports, this is about college football, this is about gameday. This is about the band, the cheerleaders, the entire thing. That's what makes up college sports. Anyone who thinks this is just about the handful of players on the field don't get what's really going on.

You can take those handful of players and replace them with another group of players and nothing changes. You remove all the markings of college football though, you take away the bands, the cheerleaders, the school, the student section, all of what. What you have left isn't really very meaningful.

I get it though, there are people that don't want to preserve that. But that is what is at stake. You gonna have unpaid cheerleaders cheering for paid professionals? That's ethical? You gonna have an unpaid band playing for paid professionals? You gonna have people donate their time and money to help support people already getting paid? College sports are bigger than the players, if we make it all about the players, if that's all we see or care about it will be to the detriment of everything else.

The truth is the players are one of the most interchangeable parts. Look at Alabama football, they lose their players at an alarmingly high rate, and yet they keep finding new ones to replace them.
 
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RollTide_HTTR

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Is cheerleading for the college football team relevant to college football? Of course it is, it's part of the landscape.

People who somehow miss the big picture, what all actually goes into the spectacle are either ignorance or callused. This is about college sports, this is about college football, this is about gameday. This is about the band, the cheerleaders, the entire thing. That's what makes up college sports. Anyone who thinks this is just about the handful of players on the field don't get what's really going on.

You can take those handful of players and replace them with another group of players and nothing changes. You remove all the markings of college football though, you take away the bands, the cheerleaders, the school, the student section, all of what. What you have left isn't really very meaningful.

I get it though, there are people that don't want to preserve that. But that is what is at stake. You gonna have unpaid cheerleaders cheering for paid professionals? That's ethical? You gonna have an unpaid band playing for paid professionals? You gonna have people donate their time and money to help support people already getting paid? College sports are bigger than the players, if we make it all about the players, if that's all we see or care about it will be to the detriment of everything else.
Would cheerleaders and band members not also fall under this law/can they not profit off their own image?
 
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KrAzY3

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Would cheerleaders and band members not also fall under this law?
I am not sure if they meet the criteria or not, I'd have to look into that. But let's assume that they do. Who is going to pay them? And if they aren't getting paid, do they walk out, organize, etc...? I mean look at what's going on with the US Women's Soccer team, but the truth is the money just isn't there. So logically what probably ends up happenings is you lose those things, or at least what you get is a much more modest offering.

This is kind of the point though, that the amateur and pro model are incompatible. You can't form a functional hybrid. Once you open Pandora's box, you get all that comes with it. Once you start paying people, or you start paying some, they're all going to want in on the action eventually. And isn't that only fair? What entitles the guys on the field to money but not everyone else? Shouldn't women get equal pay?
 
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BamaInBham

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First off, they are literally getting cash stipends. Secondly, that is only part of a benefits package worth in the range of 90K annually. That doesn't even fully take into account the use of facilities, coaching, etc... for instance Alabama players get training and preparation which empirical evidence shows leads to them literally making millions more when they go pro.

That's not nothing.

Secondly (may be this isn't for you though since it's you know, more than one paragraph so TLDR), last week my wife came home and told me a story. She was out to dinner with a businesswoman she knows, an immigrant who started her own company. Her daughter had always wanted to be a cheerleader, but she always thought it wasn't the right choice and chose for her to do dance classes and that sort of thing instead. Well, her daughter enrolls at Pitt and decides to try out for cheerleading. The mother was at first hesitant, but seem become enthralled by the whole thing. She was incredibly impressed by all the extra assistance available to cheerleaders. All the perks, the tutoring and everything place to help them succeed.

Then she went to a game. She was amazed by the whole thing. Overwhelmed, someone from a country that doesn't have college football and here she is enjoying this great spectacle. She loved it. I saw a picture of the whole family decked out in Pitt gear. You know one thing that she didn't say though? Despite the fact that her daughter was a trained dancer doing something at a high level that people are in fact paid professionally for as well. She didn't complain once that her daughter wasn't getting paid...
I once did a superficial look (just looking at publicly released expenditures) at what an Alabama football player received per annum and the total including tuition, room, board, books, [physiological, psychological and mental training], football skill development, etc. The total was ~$200,000-250,000 per player. That's not counting all of the intangible benefits they receive while in school and afterward.
 
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