Russia invades Ukraine - VI

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TIDE-HSV

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if this is true it is time for us to commit to a no fly zone. We can't just watch Russia burn Ukraine to the ground
Define "no fly zone," particularly in view of the fact that the Russians are now releasing many missiles outside Ukraine territory...
 
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Blueguitar

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I get the desire for punishment for russia, but there's only so much that can be done outside of war.

That said, if Ukraine does get a ceasefire and a return of their land from russia in exchange for agreeing to cease trying to get into NATO (which I don't think they were ever getting into anyway), then that's about as good as it gets.

One commentator said today, "the only way to end this is a deal that will make no one happy, but will be disappointedly agreed upon by all parties", and that's likely true. The only alternatives are putin getting overthrown (highly unlikely) or tucking tail and going home (even more unlikely).
I agree, but the deal has to be tough enough on Russia that Putin can't be incentivized to try something like this again. And it has to include some kind of security guarantee for Ukraine, even if short of NATO membership. I'm thinking something where Russian has to return to its starting line as of Feb. 22, and the US and one or two NATO members give Ukraine a direct security guarantee outside of NATO to protect Ukrainian territory and air space, with a limited presence in western Ukraine (say an air base) to make the commitment tangible. That would leave Russia still controlling the Crimea and those two eastern Ukrainian provinces, but would make it much harder for them to relaunch an attack. They would have gained nothing except a US, UK and/or French military presence on their doorstep, a Ukraine that is even more western-oriented, and the guaranteed permanent enmity of the Ukrainian people.

But I wouldn't be totally shocked to see a Russian military collapse in the next few weeks. If that happens and Ukraine basically drives them out, then Ukraine could do whatever it wants. I could see NATO membership being in the cards for them then. Especially if they have to overcome Russian use of chemical, biological or nuclear weapons in the process.
 

Jon

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Define "no fly zone," particularly in view of the fact that the Russians are now releasing many missiles outside Ukraine territory...
if it is in the sky over Ukraine and not Ukraine's we - NATO - shoots it down

but even saying I don't like it
 

4Q Basket Case

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if it is in the sky over Ukraine and not Ukraine's we - NATO - shoots it down

but even saying I don't like it
I fully understand the emotional and humanitarian satisfaction of doing that. But that doesn't make it a wise thing to do.

A NATO plane shoots down a Russian plane, that's an act of war, and gives Putin all the excuse he needs to attack NATO countries -- Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland. Under current NATO doctrine, an attack on one is viewed as an attack on all. Which means all of Western Europe and the US would be pulled in.

Good news is that he (Putin) can't handle the war he started, much less an expanded one. Trouble is, to survive in power -- and maybe literally to survive at all -- he can't afford anything less than something he can twist into calling a victory.

So since he can't handle what he has, and has to win in some form or fashion, the only way to respond to a shoot-down by NATO, and have the slightest sliver of hope for success, is with WMDs.

As much as I feel for the Ukrainian people, I don't think we're at the point of putting all Western Europe and maybe the US in jeopardy.

I think a more prudent alternative would be to provide the Ukrainians with air and missile defense systems -- probably should have already done that, but we can't turn back the clock now. If Putin does launch a WMD of any description, even into an unpopulated area just to demonstrate that he will use them, supply the Ukrainians with airplanes.

An A-10 Warthog would do things to a supply convoy or tank battalion that the word, "annihilate," doesn't begin to convey.
 
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TIDE-HSV

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if it is in the sky over Ukraine and not Ukraine's we - NATO - shoots it down

but even saying I don't like it
Bombs carried by bombers over Ukraine are now a minor part of the damage. Actually, getting them the jets would help more, but it's far from a perfect answer...
 

TIDE-HSV

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I fully understand the emotional and humanitarian satisfaction of doing that. But that doesn't make it a wise thing to do.

A NATO plane shoots down a Russian plane, that's an act of war, and gives Putin all the excuse he needs to attack NATO countries -- Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland. Under current NATO doctrine, an attack on one is viewed as an attack on all. Which means all of Western Europe and the US would be pulled in.

Good news is that he (Putin) can't handle the war he started, much less an expanded one. Trouble is, to survive in power -- and maybe literally to survive at all -- he can't afford anything less than something he can twist into calling a victory.

So since he can't handle what he has, and has to win in some form or fashion, the only way to respond to a shoot-down by NATO, and have the slightest sliver of hope for success, is with WMDs.

As much as I feel for the Ukrainian people, I don't think we're at the point of putting all Western Europe and maybe the US in jeopardy.

I think a more prudent alternative would be to provide the Ukrainians with air and missile defense systems -- probably should have already done that, but we can't turn back the clock now. If Putin does launch a WMD of any description, even into an unpopulated area just to demonstrate that he will use them, supply the Ukrainians with airplanes.

An A-10 Warthog would do things to a supply convoy or tank battalion that the word, "annihilate," doesn't begin to convey.
The A-10 is really only viable with complete air superiority, which Ukraine doesn't have. It's also very vulnerable to soldier-fired missiles, which the Russians have in abundance. I don't think they're the answer...
 
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4Q Basket Case

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The A-10 is really only viable with complete air superiority, which Ukraine doesn't have. It's also very vulnerable to soldier-fired missiles, which the Russians have in abundance. I don't think they're the answer...
As I think about it, you’re probably right. But the suggestion wasn’t intended to be limited to A-10s. Whatever aircraft are most effective given the circumstances and capabilities of the Ukrainian pilots.
 

TIDE-HSV

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As I think about it, you’re probably right. But the suggestion wasn’t intended to be limited to A-10s. Whatever aircraft are most effective given the circumstances and capabilities of the Ukrainian pilots.
Earlier, I thought the jets would just be vulnerable to the S-400 ack-ack systems of the Russians. However, I've changed my mind, seeing how the Ukrainians have husbanded their jets and used them to the max effect. I think they could really make use of those 29 MiGs. And I wouldn't care if they used them to chase after the missile-launching aircraft Russia is using from its own airspace. After all, Russia and Ukraine are just one country, right?
 

Jon

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I fully understand the emotional and humanitarian satisfaction of doing that. But that doesn't make it a wise thing to do.

A NATO plane shoots down a Russian plane, that's an act of war, and gives Putin all the excuse he needs to attack NATO countries -- Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland. Under current NATO doctrine, an attack on one is viewed as an attack on all. Which means all of Western Europe and the US would be pulled in.

Good news is that he (Putin) can't handle the war he started, much less an expanded one. Trouble is, to survive in power -- and maybe literally to survive at all -- he can't afford anything less than something he can twist into calling a victory.

So since he can't handle what he has, and has to win in some form or fashion, the only way to respond to a shoot-down by NATO, and have the slightest sliver of hope for success, is with WMDs.

As much as I feel for the Ukrainian people, I don't think we're at the point of putting all Western Europe and maybe the US in jeopardy.

I think a more prudent alternative would be to provide the Ukrainians with air and missile defense systems -- probably should have already done that, but we can't turn back the clock now. If Putin does launch a WMD of any description, even into an unpopulated area just to demonstrate that he will use them, supply the Ukrainians with airplanes.

An A-10 Warthog would do things to a supply convoy or tank battalion that the word, "annihilate," doesn't begin to convey.
like I said, I don't really like it.
 
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