Can We Expect A Different Approach To DB Pass Coverage?

[Tideflyer]

For those in the know, we`re all aware that CNS taught a certain philosophy/technique when it came to coverage ( the whole " in phase " approach ). Rightly or wrongly, I think it`s safe to say that many of us ( most ? ) were at times driven to distraction with the whole issue of looking for the ball and especially so when a receiver caught a ball over one of our DBs who was running with his back completely to the QB, never knowing where the ball was. Can/should we expect a different approach moving forward with the new staff? This question is being asked by someone that should be considered totally ignorant of the nuances and techniques of DB play. Namely, yours truly.

 

[4Q Basket Case]

Absent conclusive evidence to the contrary, I'm going to go with Nick Saban's approach.

IOW, to answer your question directly, "No."

I'd change my mind if and when I saw evidence that Saban's approach was statistically inferior. Note that passing yards given up wouldn't give an accurate picture.

You'd need to break down pass defense in which DBs looked back vs. those that didn't. So far, I haven't seen that.

 

[Tidewater]

When Minkah was roaming the defensive backfield, Bama DBs seems to pick off a lot of passes (and return a lot of them for TDs).

 

[HighlandOak]

Absent conclusive evidence to the contrary, I'm going to go with Nick Saban's approach.

IOW, to answer your question directly, "No."

I'd change my mind if and when I saw evidence that Saban's approach was statistically inferior. Note that passing yards given up wouldn't give an accurate picture.

You'd need to break down pass defense in which DBs looked back vs. those that didn't. So far, I haven't seen that.

Saban'a approach is actually irrelevant to the OP's question. While he expresses a certain amount of frustration with it, he's not questioning it per se, but whether DeBoer's DBs will be coached to do the same thing.

I have no clue, but it would seem that a review of UW's and USA's defenses from the past few seasons would provide a clue.

 

[BamaMoon]

So I'll bite and say, "I hope."

Who am I to question the football genius of CNS, but I join @Tideflyer and admit that this was so frustrating.

I *think* I understand what it meant to be "in phase" according to CNS doctrine, but the fact we apparently WERE NOT "in phase" very often led to the phenomena of passes being completed right over our DBs heads because they weren't in position to turn around, according to the way CNS taught it.

So I hope we see fewer defensive breakdowns and more breaks on the ball for INTs and Pick6s. Only time will tell!

 

[Tideflyer]

Thanks everyone. I was just kind of hoping somebody might have had some " intel " regarding what was being taught by the new staff. If it`s a wait and see situation, so be it!

 

[BamaMoon]

Thanks everyone. I was just kind of hoping somebody might have had some " intel " regarding what was being taught by the new staff. If it`s a wait and see situation, so be it!

IIRC, the new DC has a reputation for a "Swarm defense" and seems as if I've heard terminology like "read and react" which might imply more instinctual and less intellectual tendencies.

We know CNS's MO was more "intellectual" but all defenses depend on some type of "read" before they "react."

I guess we'll eventually see how this plays out in coverages and results but it sounds to me that the new system will generally be more simplistic and promote quicker reaction times. Whether that means they'll turn and find the ball more remains to be seen.

 

[Tidelines]

On deep passes Saban's approach was for the DB to play the WR instead of the ball. As the WR reacted to the ball, the DB was to separate the WR's arms by ripping up between them and break up the pass. That allowed the DB to totally focus on a receiver. Ever try coving a receiver and steal looks back at the QB? You'll quickly look foolish. I always liked Saban's playing in phase technique, but I also thought it caused more PIs and less interceptions.

 

[gtgilbert]

The 'in-phase' and 'out-of-phase' techniques are not actually specific to Saban. They are pretty much standard techniques for DBs in man coverage. As Tidelines said, if a DB is in man coverage and running with a WR, stealing a look back is the best way to get beat. #1 reason is that it's physically impossible to run at full speed in one direction while twisting around to look back over your shoulder at a QB - your body simply can't do it. #2 reason is that the WR has a much better idea of where the ball is supposed to go than you do, so they can react later. If you try to look early and guess wrong, unless you are in front of the WR, you're toast.

Now what could happen is that we drop some of the pattern matching concepts that were very Saban centric that required the DBs to do a lot of processing and maybe delayed their reaction time a bit, meaning it was harder for them to stay in-phase. If they are in-phase more, they would be better positioned to take a peek back at the ball, but even then, they will be reacting to when the WR turns if they are running in man.

 

[AlistarWills]

The 'in-phase' and 'out-of-phase' techniques are not actually specific to Saban. They are pretty much standard techniques for DBs in man coverage. As Tidelines said, if a DB is in man coverage and running with a WR, stealing a look back is the best way to get beat. #1 reason is that it's physically impossible to run at full speed in one direction while twisting around to look back over your shoulder at a QB - your body simply can't do it. #2 reason is that the WR has a much better idea of where the ball is supposed to go than you do, so they can react later. If you try to look early and guess wrong, unless you are in front of the WR, you're toast.

Now what could happen is that we drop some of the pattern matching concepts that were very Saban centric that required the DBs to do a lot of processing and maybe delayed their reaction time a bit, meaning it was harder for them to stay in-phase. If they are in-phase more, they would be better positioned to take a peek back at the ball, but even then, they will be reacting to when the WR turns if they are running in man.

I think you hit what I was thinking as I read through the thread. I believe Saban’s approach was to #1 prevent the completed pass.
Additionally, I don’t think you’ll find many INT’s occur on passes where the DB has his back to the QB while giving chase down the field. Do they happen, yes, I’d almost wager that it’s a poorly thrown ball (read that as rushed or just short) in most of those cases. Most INTs come from a DB jumping a route as they are facing the QB and can see the ball come out and know it’s in the air.
Over the years, I know we have seen many balls go by a DB’s ear with their back turned as they run down the field. I’ve settled on the fact thot it’s not necessarily the technique being taught but the executing the technique. We can’t have 5 Minkahs/Eddies/Marlons/ etc on the field every single year.

 

[CajunCrimson]

When Saban’s defense is played right, you get fewer passes thrown to the corners, effectively taking out supposedly their two best receivers.

When our defense was missing quality corner skills at the Star is when we were most vulnerable.

There is a reason Arnold got so much pub last year. It’s because no one threw on Kool Aid.

 

[4Q Basket Case]

The 'in-phase' and 'out-of-phase' techniques are not actually specific to Saban. They are pretty much standard techniques for DBs in man coverage. As Tidelines said, if a DB is in man coverage and running with a WR, stealing a look back is the best way to get beat. #1 reason is that it's physically impossible to run at full speed in one direction while twisting around to look back over your shoulder at a QB - your body simply can't do it. #2 reason is that the WR has a much better idea of where the ball is supposed to go than you do, so they can react later. If you try to look early and guess wrong, unless you are in front of the WR, you're toast.

Now what could happen is that we drop some of the pattern matching concepts that were very Saban centric that required the DBs to do a lot of processing and maybe delayed their reaction time a bit, meaning it was harder for them to stay in-phase. If they are in-phase more, they would be better positioned to take a peek back at the ball, but even then, they will be reacting to when the WR turns if they are running in man.

The first time I heard about the concept of “in phase” was from Joe Kines during his second stint in Tuscaloosa. At that time, he was a holdover from Mike Price’s staff and working under Mike Shula.

Kines’ explanation was pretty much all the points that have been described in this thread. The bottom line is that if the DB is not perfectly in phase with the WR, and looks back for the ball before the WR does, the distance between the two increases and with it the chance of a completion.

Tangentially related, I will be interested to see if we can cut down on the DPI penalties that have plagued us for several years now. Admittedly incompetent SEC refs haven’t helped, but I don’t think we can lay the issue wholly at their feet. It seems to me that a lot of them have been beaten DBs trying to prevent a completion. They’re out of position to do that within the rules, and have to commit interference.

I always enjoy your posts, gtgilbert. Do you have any thoughts on why we’ve seemed to get way more than our share of DPI calls for a significant period of time?

 

[JDCrimson]

If the DB cant achieve in phase, then it doesnt matter what the DB does. If the ball is arriving on a quick pass before the DB gets in phase, then it doesn't matter what happens.

We will probably play more zone so that our DBs can react quicker to what the QB is doing plus help in run support or with QB runs.

I would prefer we play more zone coverage which also allows for more DB blitzes as well.

 

[gtgilbert]

The first time I heard about the concept of “in phase” was from Joe Kines during his second stint in Tuscaloosa. At that time, he was a holdover from Mike Price’s staff and working under Mike Shula.

Kines’ explanation was pretty much all the points that have been described in this thread. The bottom line is that if the DB is not perfectly in phase with the WR, and looks back for the ball before the WR does, the distance between the two increases and with it the chance of a completion.

Tangentially related, I will be interested to see if we can cut down on the DPI penalties that have plagued us for several years now. Admittedly incompetent SEC refs haven’t helped, but I don’t think we can lay the issue wholly at their feet. It seems to me that a lot of them have been beaten DBs trying to prevent a completion. They’re out of position to do that within the rules, and have to commit interference.

I always enjoy your posts, gtgilbert. Do you have any thoughts on why we’ve seemed to get way more than our share of DPI calls for a significant period of time?

There was an article that went in depth into not only DPI, but overall penalties against Alabama. The author did some pretty in depth statistics into average number of penalties our opponents had in games not against us versus against us and also penalties our opponents, opponents has against our opponents, versus what we had against us. Long, long story short is that despite all the bellyaching we hear about the refs being in our pockets, it data and statistical analysis shows that the refs are much, much less likely to call penalties against our opponent when they play us, versus the opponents others games and much more likely to call penalties against alabama, than against our opponents opponents. It's like the refs hold alabama players to a higher standard, so if it's close to in doubt call it against alabama, and unless it's totally obvious, don't call it against our opponent. The analysis proved that it was well outside of any type of margin of error or possible standard deviation, well outside.

How else in the world could it be that not one single time in his last season at Bama was did Will Anderson draw a holding penalty? Seriously, one of the best pass rushers in NCAA football in the last 10 years and he was never ONCE held across and entire season? Really? Dude went on to have 10 sacks as an NFL rookie and not a single OT ever grabbed more jersey than they should have in college. Stuff like that just isn't possible

So I guess it comes down to; were the Refs biased against Alabama because of Alabama, or because of Saban? If the former, we'll probably still get more than our fair share of flags against us across the board, if the latter, maybe we'll see something different.

Back to DPI though, others have mentioned we might play more zone, and that's certainly true of both how USA and UW played, and that can help reduce DPI since guys aren't playing press/man quite as much. The question is if USA and UW were running more zone because they just didn't trust the CBs in man. If that's the case and with the athletes bama has, they could use man coverage more than they have in the past.

 

[gtgilbert]

The first time I heard about the concept of “in phase” was from Joe Kines during his second stint in Tuscaloosa. At that time, he was a holdover from Mike Price’s staff and working under Mike Shula.

Kines’ explanation was pretty much all the points that have been described in this thread. The bottom line is that if the DB is not perfectly in phase with the WR, and looks back for the ball before the WR does, the distance between the two increases and with it the chance of a completion.

Tangentially related, I will be interested to see if we can cut down on the DPI penalties that have plagued us for several years now. Admittedly incompetent SEC refs haven’t helped, but I don’t think we can lay the issue wholly at their feet. It seems to me that a lot of them have been beaten DBs trying to prevent a completion. They’re out of position to do that within the rules, and have to commit interference.

I always enjoy your posts, gtgilbert. Do you have any thoughts on why we’ve seemed to get way more than our share of DPI calls for a significant period of time?

One more thing on DPI. If I was a college coach, I'd tell my DBs that if they were more than 10 yards downfield, and you are the deepest guy in coverage and a guy might catch the ball over you, just interfere with him and take the penalty unless you are in the end zone - then try to make a play. Since it's not a spot foul in college (except in the end zone), you give up 10 yards and a first down versus a longer completion or TD if there's YAC.

 

[4Q Basket Case]

There was an article that went in depth into not only DPI, but overall penalties against Alabama. The author did some pretty in depth statistics into average number of penalties our opponents had in games not against us versus against us and also penalties our opponents, opponents has against our opponents, versus what we had against us. Long, long story short is that despite all the bellyaching we hear about the refs being in our pockets, it data and statistical analysis shows that the refs are much, much less likely to call penalties against our opponent when they play us, versus the opponents others games and much more likely to call penalties against alabama, than against our opponents opponents. It's like the refs hold alabama players to a higher standard, so if it's close to in doubt call it against alabama, and unless it's totally obvious, don't call it against our opponent. The analysis proved that it was well outside of any type of margin of error or possible standard deviation, well outside.

How else in the world could it be that not one single time in his last season at Bama was did Will Anderson draw a holding penalty? Seriously, one of the best pass rushers in NCAA football in the last 10 years and he was never ONCE held across and entire season? Really? Dude went on to have 10 sacks as an NFL rookie and not a single OT ever grabbed more jersey than they should have in college. Stuff like that just isn't possible

So I guess it comes down to; were the Refs biased against Alabama because of Alabama, or because of Saban? If the former, we'll probably still get more than our fair share of flags against us across the board, if the latter, maybe we'll see something different.

Back to DPI though, others have mentioned we might play more zone, and that's certainly true of both how USA and UW played, and that can help reduce DPI since guys aren't playing press/man quite as much. The question is if USA and UW were running more zone because they just didn't trust the CBs in man. If that's the case and with the athletes bama has, they could use man coverage more than they have in the past.

Thanks for the analysis.

Only tangentially related, but Mrs. Basket Case and I were recently in a tour group for almost two weeks. One of the other couples lives in Oxford and the male half works for the University. When I first met him, he seemed like a good guy. But he turned out to be a deranged and vocal Ole Miss fan.

I generally try to keep my mouth shut in such settings, but he couldn’t help himself one night when we were seated together for dinner. Totally off the topic of conversation, he blurted out that Alabama gets all the calls, and brought up a game I remember from early in Saban’s tenure (maybe before, I’m honestly not sure).

We were ahead with less than a minute to go, and Ole Miss was driving. Their WR caught a long ball that would have put them in a good position to go ahead. But there was a problem….the WR went OB while running his route, came back in bounds, and was ruled as being the first to touch the ball. Illegal touching, incomplete pass, Alabama goes on to win.

Well, my dining neighbor went through the whole thing, getting more agitated as he went, and I’m just sitting there saying nothing trying not to make eye contact. Then he says, “And I know for a FACT that the replay official in Birmingham who made the call was an Alabama graduate.”

I finally responded and asked if he really wanted to go there. He said, “You damned right I do.” I said, “OK. What you said can’t have happened. They didn’t do replay rulings like that back then.”

Spitting and sputtering resumed, but he finally shut up. I was hacked off at the time and it was a conscious effort to keep my poise. In retrospect, it’s really comical. And he still really truly believes that Alabama gets the calls….up to and including a tinfoil hat conspiracy he detailed whereby the SEC refs sprinkle in enough bad calls against us to cover up the real aim that Bama gets all the calls that really matter.

SMH. And yes, that was the last conversation I had with him for the rest of the trip.

 

[Ledsteplin]

I think DB play is one item Saban offered help on for DeBoer. DeBoer will do things his way, but he's also using some of Saban's ways.

 

[Tidelines]

Thanks for the analysis.

Only tangentially related, but Mrs. Basket Case and I were recently in a tour group for almost two weeks. One of the other couples lives in Oxford and the male half works for the University. When I first met him, he seemed like a good guy. But he turned out to be a deranged and vocal Ole Miss fan.

I generally try to keep my mouth shut in such settings, but he couldn’t help himself one night when we were seated together for dinner. Totally off the topic of conversation, he blurted out that Alabama gets all the calls, and brought up a game I remember from early in Saban’s tenure (maybe before, I’m honestly not sure).

We were ahead with less than a minute to go, and Ole Miss was driving. Their WR caught a long ball that would have put them in a good position to go ahead. But there was a problem….the WR went OB while running his route, came back in bounds, and was ruled as being the first to touch the ball. Illegal touching, incomplete pass, Alabama goes on to win.

Well, my dining neighbor went through the whole thing, getting more agitated as he went, and I’m just sitting there saying nothing trying not to make eye contact. Then he says, “And I know for a FACT that the replay official in Birmingham who made the call was an Alabama graduate.”

I finally responded and asked if he really wanted to go there. He said, “You damned right I do.” I said, “OK. What you said can’t have happened. They didn’t do replay rulings like that back then.”

Spitting and sputtering resumed, but he finally shut up. I was hacked off at the time and it was a conscious effort to keep my poise. In retrospect, it’s really comical. And he still really truly believes that Alabama gets the calls….up to and including a tinfoil hat conspiracy he detailed whereby the SEC refs sprinkle in enough bad calls against us to cover up the real aim that Bama gets all the calls that really matter.

SMH. And yes, that was the last conversation I had with him for the rest of the trip.

I commend you on your response to the Ole Miss fan. It takes broad shoulders to carry the mantra of being the best college football program of all time. We've all had similar encounters, but I always keep in mind... how does a sane fan out crazy an insane fan. So I let them carry on with their excuses and delusions. It's not my problem.

 

[davefrat]

One more thing on DPI. If I was a college coach, I'd tell my DBs that if they were more than 10 yards downfield, and you are the deepest guy in coverage and a guy might catch the ball over you, just interfere with him and take the penalty unless you are in the end zone - then try to make a play. Since it's not a spot foul in college (except in the end zone), you give up 10 yards and a first down versus a longer completion or TD if there's YAC.

If I recall correctly, Fernando Bryant said as much many years ago...rather give up 15 yards than a TD.

 

[JustNeedMe81]

Funny you guys talked about in and out of phase methods... That's very common.

Pattern Matching Defense.. Different approaches. So yes, You will see different approaches by DB on defense. They will be more aggressive on defense and we'll see lot of blitzes from CB/Safety.