The Republican War on Public Schools (vouchers, religion, graft, testing, etc.)

[Bodhisattva]

Many of divisive issues we face in the US today aren't really solvable, as neither side see any middle ground as being allowable when discussing 'moral' issues. A couple of examples (I don't think we need to detract from this thread by discussing these issues, I'm simply pointing out fundamental differences which I don't think can realistically be solved, even if a majority feels one way or the other):
- abortion - the quintessential example. In general terms, one side feels life begins at viability, one believes life begins with a heartbeat. The pro-choicers generally believe that forcing the mother to carry an unwanted child before it is viable violates her human rights. The anti-choicers (I'm using this term as it feel less inflammatory) argue that cellular division or a heartbeat are how life is defined, so the terminating the pregnancy is killing a life. I can see both sides, and both sides feel their belief is what is 'right'. I don't see how either will ever budge.
- LGBTQ and children - one side wants discussion in schools, for example, as normalizing something that is outside of the child's experience makes them less likely to respond negatively as they grow up and are exposed to behaviors that fall 'outside the norm'. The other side feels that teaching kids anything about sexuality or behaviors that fall 'outside the norms' is in appropriate, that parents should decide when it's appropriate to begin talking about such things. I can see both sides, and both sides feel their belief is what is 'right'. I don't see how either will ever budge.

Those are just two quick examples of things that have become fairly divisive to our nations, both of which heavily straddle the rights / morality line. Both sides feel the other has it wrong, and that the future of our society hangs on 'getting it right'.

There's no point in arguing these things here, this thread isn't about those issues. But those issues are just two of many that are not 'black and white', though both sides take an extreme stance based on belief.

I don't know how to rectify these differences, which is why I largely throw my hands up wrt politics anymore.

For a long time - and this board is just one of many examples - people treat politics as tribal rooting interests more similar to sports. People have such strong opinions on things they know nothing about. It's like the drunk fan next to me at the sports bar who doesn't know the difference between a touchback and a safety, yet he is the loudest cheerleader at the table. He doesn't care if his team cheats. Heck, only the other side cheats. He just wants the win so he can feel like he has accomplished something.

A lot of people seem to be in tribal-mode 24/7. I drop in maybe once a week for any substantive period of time. And it's mainly to see if there are any recruiting updates or to talk about a book I just finish or an international trip I just completed or am planning. Politics is boring and stupid, and politicians are the worst among us. Why would I root for any of them, much less spend any significant time championing their cause. People need to do something productive with their free time. Get a hobby. Maybe a life.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

Politics is boring and stupid, and politicians are the worst among us. Why would I root for any of them, much less spend any significant time championing their cause. People need to do something productive with their free time. Get a hobby. Maybe a life.

But, but, but...soul of the nation....something, something, something. And dictators for life! Decency is on the ballot! Are you not moved? Are you not afraid? Are you not outraged? What's wrong with you? How are you able to resist the siren-song of fanciful histrionics? It must be the result of a thought-crime!

*Runs away to safe space on campus*

 

[JDCrimson]

I have been away for a while, a deserved suspension, probably at a good time. Alot has changed in my life for the better during that time, professionally, family, spiritually, and in health.

You wont find reality in this forum, on social media, cable/network news, radio. You will only find it in your community among your family, your coworkers, your church, your friends, your grocery store. 90% of what we argue about here aint even happening in our respective communities. Most of the people im in contact with everyday are worried about the same thing - getting kids to school on time.

Yet we come here debating with a false sense of hope that we can change the larger world we live in. But the viewpoints we advocate for likely would contravene our own personal interests if implemented certainly if you have a disability, diasbled child, ailing parent. Next door to us are people dealing with circumstances different than ours. And we need to acknowledge that fate is not benevolently applied to us all in equal measure.

As for schools, from my firsthand experience, the classroom, the kids, nor even the parents are not the primary problem. School administration from the governor down to the assistant principal is the problem. I have interacted with many different institutions of federal and state government. But hands down the most unaccountable institition i have ever dealt with is school administration. They can't even follow a court order in most cases, they cant even follow their own legal settlements.

Until we create individualized curriculums and individually paced learning plans, which is possible with the technology available today, we will continue to fail to realize each person's God given potential.

 

[NationalTitles18]

I have been away for a while, a deserved suspension, probably at a good time. Alot has changed in my life for the better during that time, professionally, family, spiritually, and in health.

Welcome back and glad for good change.

You wont find reality in this forum, on social media, cable/network news, radio. You will only find it in your community among your family, your coworkers, your church, your friends, your grocery store. 90% of what we argue about here aint even happening in our respective communities. Most of the people im in contact with everyday are worried about the same thing - getting kids to school on time.

We're just the old men at the virtual gas station in a small town sitting around talking like we know what we're talking about.

Yet we come here debating with a false sense of hope that we can change the larger world we live in. But the viewpoints we advocate for likely would contravene our own personal interests if implemented certainly if you have a disability, diasbled child, ailing parent. Next door to us are people dealing with circumstances different than ours. And we need to acknowledge that fate is not benevolently to us all in equal measure.

I have disabled children. I want our government to do right by them and others like them. And even with the challenges we face, I know others in worse situations.

As for schools, from my firsthand experience, the classroom, the kids, nor even the parents are not the primary problem. School administration from the governor down to the assistant principal is the problem. I have interacted with many different institutions of federal and state government. But hands down the most unaccountable institition i have ever dealt with is school administration. They can't even follow a court order in most cases, they cant even follow their own legal settlements.

If you have a child with an IEP, especially. Being an advocate for them is exhausting in every way.

Until we create individualized curriculums and individually paced learning plans, which is possible with the technology available today, we will continue to fail to realize each person's God given potential.

100%. But meaningful innovation is slow to take hold when everyone from principals to teachers are just trying to keep their head above water to keep the politicians happy. There is value in the social experience of learning, but we have the means to help each student better than we do now.

 

[Its On A Slab]

Nope, not a chance. And it's not like politicians care. Keeping the unions happy seems to be a much higher priority.

Because unions have never done anything good for this country.

The idea of a vacation, weekend, paid company health insurance, 5 day work week, safer workplaces, ending child labor.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

Because unions have never done anything good for this country.

The idea of a vacation, weekend, paid company health insurance, 5 day work week, safer workplaces, ending child labor.

Nice straw man. I didn’t criticize the union, I merely pointed that politicians care more about them than the kids. Sheesh.

 

[AWRTR]

I have been away for a while, a deserved suspension, probably at a good time. Alot has changed in my life for the better during that time, professionally, family, spiritually, and in health.

You wont find reality in this forum, on social media, cable/network news, radio. You will only find it in your community among your family, your coworkers, your church, your friends, your grocery store. 90% of what we argue about here aint even happening in our respective communities. Most of the people im in contact with everyday are worried about the same thing - getting kids to school on time.

Yet we come here debating with a false sense of hope that we can change the larger world we live in. But the viewpoints we advocate for likely would contravene our own personal interests if implemented certainly if you have a disability, diasbled child, ailing parent. Next door to us are people dealing with circumstances different than ours. And we need to acknowledge that fate is not benevolently applied to us all in equal measure.

As for schools, from my firsthand experience, the classroom, the kids, nor even the parents are not the primary problem. School administration from the governor down to the assistant principal is the problem. I have interacted with many different institutions of federal and state government. But hands down the most unaccountable institition i have ever dealt with is school administration. They can't even follow a court order in most cases, they cant even follow their own legal settlements.

Until we create individualized curriculums and individually paced learning plans, which is possible with the technology available today, we will continue to fail to realize each person's God given potential.

This post will preach! Well said.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Because unions have never done anything good for this country.

The idea of a vacation, weekend, paid company health insurance, 5 day work week, safer workplaces, ending child labor.

Unions did a lot of good in its early days, but the scorecard in recent decades is much more mixed. Wanting pay above market rate, shielding incompetent employees from being fired, etc. is seen everywhere - from fast food workers to teachers to federal employees to police. My default is to let markets decide. Want greater pay/benefits/conditions? Go make yourself more valuable to either your current employer or the next one. Getting greater experience, skills, education, etc. - whatever you need to be better so you can be compensated accordingly.

My job with the federal government is largely devoid of merit. You climb the ladder mostly by doing time. Getting paid by time in service and the fact that's almost impossible to get fired just encourages people to do minimal work. Government is horrible with incentives. So many examples. I had a colleague that joined my office about a year ago. After a few months he started disappearing for weeks at a time. He was AWOL. He'd come back for a while to reset the clock and then disappear again. In the meantime, we couldn't hire a replacement (which is a long process anyway) and everyone else had to carry his workload. It was a long process to try to fire him, largely because he is a minority. He knew how to play the game. He eventually transferred to another office, where I'm sure he'll do the same thing there over the course of a year or two. We found out he had done the same thing at his previous job before coming to us.

My wife's experience is different. Her job is based on merit and market forces. She works at two hospitals - one full time and the other is her side gig. CRNAs are in high demand, yet her primary hospital did not want to keep up with the market and salaries and vacation time fell significantly behind what competitors were offering. When the hospital refused to be competitive, people started leaving. My wife put in her notice; she could make $30k more at another nearby hospital. The end result was that the hospital, because they had lost people and angered those that had not quite left yet - had to pay more than their competitors (added retention bonuses) to retain the remaining staff. And they had to spend a lot of money to recruit and train new people to replace the ones they lost. Really dumb management. If you don't pay attention to the market, you will get burned by it. They didn't and they did.


ETA: The two examples above are why I love studying markets. Both are examples of screw ups. The private sector version shows a business making a mistake and getting punished. It was forced to learn a lesson the hard way. The government example shows it making a mistake and making no adjustment whatsoever - just continuing to expensively exist in the dumbest way possible.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I have been away for a while, a deserved suspension, probably at a good time. Alot has changed in my life for the better during that time, professionally, family, spiritually, and in health.

You wont find reality in this forum, on social media, cable/network news, radio. You will only find it in your community among your family, your coworkers, your church, your friends, your grocery store. 90% of what we argue about here aint even happening in our respective communities. Most of the people im in contact with everyday are worried about the same thing - getting kids to school on time.

Yet we come here debating with a false sense of hope that we can change the larger world we live in. But the viewpoints we advocate for likely would contravene our own personal interests if implemented certainly if you have a disability, diasbled child, ailing parent. Next door to us are people dealing with circumstances different than ours. And we need to acknowledge that fate is not benevolently applied to us all in equal measure.

As for schools, from my firsthand experience, the classroom, the kids, nor even the parents are not the primary problem. School administration from the governor down to the assistant principal is the problem. I have interacted with many different institutions of federal and state government. But hands down the most unaccountable institition i have ever dealt with is school administration. They can't even follow a court order in most cases, they cant even follow their own legal settlements.

Until we create individualized curriculums and individually paced learning plans, which is possible with the technology available today, we will continue to fail to realize each person's God given potential.

Just be thankful this is the only sector of government that displays these characteristics.

We dread having the government run anything like a business but unfortunately, business principles still apply. People need to be able to lose their jobs as easily in government jobs as people who work in the private sector. There's next to zero threat of anyone "getting fired" for not doing their job in most government employment. In the private sector, don't do your job and it's not long until you're no longer employed there.

I worked in the private sector for 20 years before working in the governmental sector for the last 10. It is a joke as to what is allowed to go on with regard to employee performance or lack thereof as it pertains to staying employed. The crap I've witnessed over the last ten years would have never been tolerated at ANY company I worked for in the private sector, NOT.ONE.OF.THEM. Yet for some reason it exist like a cancer throughout our government offices across this country. Do you disagree with that?

The individualized educational plan will never fly in this country even though it would probably be the best thing to do. We could list a million reasons we already know would be given as to why it wouldn't. Our government just doesn't think with reason or common sense.

 

[Bamaro]

In my younger days, I dated a woman who was a teacher in DC. It was extremely depressing. Most of the kids and their parents had absolutely no interest in school. And their entertainment was disrupting the few good kids from getting their education. My gf would come home crying many times because she could see the handful of smart kids that she had starting to be pulled down by the weight of all the garbage around them. I think she taught 6th grade. No way these kids were going to overcome all of that nonsense until they graduated high school.

The problems stem from poverty and the families, or lack there of.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Many of divisive issues we face in the US today aren't really solvable, as neither side see any middle ground as being allowable when discussing 'moral' issues. A couple of examples (I don't think we need to detract from this thread by discussing these issues, I'm simply pointing out fundamental differences which I don't think can realistically be solved, even if a majority feels one way or the other):
- abortion - the quintessential example. In general terms, one side feels life begins at viability, one believes life begins with a heartbeat. The pro-choicers generally believe that forcing the mother to carry an unwanted child before it is viable violates her human rights. The anti-choicers (I'm using this term as it feel less inflammatory) argue that cellular division or a heartbeat are how life is defined, so the terminating the pregnancy is killing a life. I can see both sides, and both sides feel their belief is what is 'right'. I don't see how either will ever budge.
- LGBTQ and children - one side wants discussion in schools, for example, as normalizing something that is outside of the child's experience makes them less likely to respond negatively as they grow up and are exposed to behaviors that fall 'outside the norm'. The other side feels that teaching kids anything about sexuality or behaviors that fall 'outside the norms' is in appropriate, that parents should decide when it's appropriate to begin talking about such things. I can see both sides, and both sides feel their belief is what is 'right'. I don't see how either will ever budge.

Those are just two quick examples of things that have become fairly divisive to our nations, both of which heavily straddle the rights / morality line. Both sides feel the other has it wrong, and that the future of our society hangs on 'getting it right'.

There's no point in arguing these things here, this thread isn't about those issues. But those issues are just two of many that are not 'black and white', though both sides take an extreme stance based on belief.

I don't know how to rectify these differences, which is why I largely throw my hands up wrt politics anymore.

As these types of topics relate to our educational system, and they certainly do, I can tell you what is going on in my neck of the woods. People who have also reached the point you have, realized that there are things we're not going to agree on and are sending their kids to private schools. Over the last 5 years, private schools in our local area have gone from no waiting lists to waiting lists exceeding 200 kids per school. That falls into the category of exponential growth.

So in essence, parents have said "Okay, we're done arguing with people and a system that we're never going to find a middle ground. So you can have the public school system, we're taking our kids' educational system into our own hands." That's what makes America great, that people are allowed to have an option like that rather than being forced to stay in a system they fundamentally disagree with.

 

[Tidelines]

The problems stem from poverty and the families, or lack there of.

Don't worry Dems will throw billions of dollars at it and solve the problem in another 40 or 50 years.

 

[AWRTR]

Don't worry Dems will throw billions of dollars at it and solve the problem in another 40 or 50 years.

We are 60 years into throwing the money and it’s worse. Sheer insanity. The entire problem is the dissolution nuclear family. When mom and dad aren’t married and living together raising the kids in a healthy environment the outcomes crash. Some overcome it and that’s fantastic, but it can be a tall hill to climb. I have much respect for those who do.

 

[Crimson1967]

The GOP nominee to run public schools in North Carolina has called for the execution of Barack Obama.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/09/politics/kfile-michele-morrow-january-6-comments/index.html

 

[NationalTitles18]

The GOP nominee to run public schools in North Carolina has called for the execution of Barack Obama.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/09/politics/kfile-michele-morrow-january-6-comments/index.html

Seems like a stable person I'd want in charge of my kids.

 

[Crimson1967]

Public schools need to emphasize studying civics, particularly the constitution. That way people won’t look like an idiot by saying a private business suspending someone from work for calling a customer a homophobic slur while on the job violates freedom of speech.

 

[jthomas666]

We are 60 years into throwing the money and it’s worse. Sheer insanity. The entire problem is the dissolution nuclear family. When mom and dad aren’t married and living together raising the kids in a healthy environment the outcomes crash. Some overcome it and that’s fantastic, but it can be a tall hill to climb. I have much respect for those who do.

A contributing factor, perhaps, but the "entire problem"?

 

[CrimsonJazz]

Public schools need to emphasize studying civics, particularly the constitution. That way people won’t look like an idiot by saying a private business suspending someone from work for calling a customer a homophobic slur while on the job violates freedom of speech.

Yeah, good luck with that. Carlin was right about the intentional dumbing down of America.

 

[Its On A Slab]

Public schools need to emphasize studying civics, particularly the constitution. That way people won’t look like an idiot by saying a private business suspending someone from work for calling a customer a homophobic slur while on the job violates freedom of speech.

Agree on the free speech thing. People who don't understand that the 1st amendment free speech clause only applies to the individual's freedom from governmental censorship of his/her speech. Of course, you are generally free to say whatever you want in public. But you aren't shielded from the consequences (getting fired, getting your #@# kicked, etc).

 

[CrimsonJazz]

Agree on the free speech thing. People who don't understand that the 1st amendment free speech clause only applies to the individual's freedom from governmental censorship of his/her speech. Of course, you are generally free to say whatever you want in public. But you aren't shielded from the consequences (getting fired, getting your #@# kicked, etc).

I don't know why, but it still amazes me to this day how many people don't understand this. The bill of rights is really a set of rules for our government, not us. If more people looked at it that way, it might help.