Russia Invades Ukraine XVIII

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Tidewater

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I appreciate your posts, ...
There is no offer on the table from Putin to stop the war and allow him to keep "Russian-occupied Donbas”.
Putin’s offer is that Ukraine should retreat and give the “Russian-unoccupied areas of Donbass” (i.e., Ukrainian-controlled area) to Russia.
As I wrote above with the numbers, it is strategically stupid and a political suicide for Zelensky.
I once went to Tijuana. While shopping in the market, I found a vendor of Mexican blankets. I found one I liked and asked the shopkeeper how much.
"$65," he said in English.
I put it down and started walking to the door and he yelled out "$5!"
We eventually agreed on $4.

The point is that the "going in" position in negotiations is rarely the ending position. The Russians particularly liked to grossly overstate their demands at the beginning, then gradually whittle down their conditions and use the whittling as a demonstration that they are reasonable and negotiating in good faith: "See, I have already given in on X, and Y. Now, give me Z. I'm willing to settle for only Z."

Russia demands Ukraine retreat from Ukrainian-occupied portions of Kherson, Dniepro, Zaporizhzhia, and Kharkov, as well as Donetsk and Lugansk.
Ukraine counters with "How about you you get your filthy hands off all of your territory?"
In the end, I would bet that they will settle for each side holding what they now have. and the confrontation line gets frozen.
Russia demands the de jure cession of all that territory. Ukraine counters with "How about you get your filthy hands off all the Ukrainian territory you have stolen?"
They settle for de facto partition, but Ukraine does not legally cede any territory to Russia. (Throughout the Cold War, the US officially treated Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania as "temporarily occupied by the Soviets." Look at a US government printed map from the Cold War and you will see that. Eventually, the US realized its position: an independent Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania.)
Russia demands reparations.
Ukraine demands equal reparations.
They settle for nobody pays anybody reparations (but Europe helps rebuild Ukraine).


Or Option B, they keep fighting until somebody cracks and we just hope it is not the Ukrainians. A lot of people are going to die in Option B.
 
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Tidewater

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Comparing WWII’s eastern front to the current Ukrainian War ignores alot of things. Mainly ideology and the fact it was a war between major world powers. The Eastern Front was very much so an ideological and racial war that really doesn’t compare with anything in the Ukrainian war currently.

TBH the German war machine is an overrated army when you consider that once it finally took a punch on the chin it never truly was the same. The Nazi ideology, it’s lack of military components, and lack of sustainable resources pretty much meant that Operation Typhoon had to be a success or they were cooked. Compare that to the German army in the First World War and you see a major difference in professionalism and capabilities. Alot of the Wehrmacht’s myth is based around the fact they conquered France… okay what else did they do? They got whipped in Africa, whipped in the English Channel, and outright decimated in Russia. Another thing is that WWII fans love to look at ridiculous Nazi mechanized weaponry such as the Tiger tanks and unrealized weapons. But what is forgotten or blatantly ignored is that 80% of the Nazi armor and artillery was horse drawn. When you are making a massive geographical invasion in a very cold place then you might not want to go in with horses… ask Napoleon. My point is that using a doomed army going against one with limitless manpower is probably not a good historical analogy.

If anything, this war resembles the Winter War in that Russia is going to be the one to ultimately claim what an end looks like. Whether that be a general peace or one last move and then peace is going to be the question. I would wager on the latter because Putin will undoubtedly want to claim some sort of victory in what has been a disastrous war for him.
There is also a time factor to decisions like this.
In November 1813, the members of the 6th Coalition offered Napoleon peace in exchange for "natural borders" Pyrenees, Alps and the Rhine. (the so-called Frankfurt Proposals)
France_Departement_1801.svg.jpg
Napoleon refused. "I'm going to get it all back. Why settle for less than all of it?"
By December, when the Allies crossed the French frontier and Austria joined the Coalition, Napoleon decide to accept but by then the Allies had changed their proposal to the 1791 borders of France.
France 1791.jpg
Note the difference. In November, the Allies agreed to allow the French to keep Belgium and the Rhineland west of the Rhine. By December, Belgium and the Rhineland were no longer offered. Napoleon refused and eventually (1814) was forced to become "Emperor of Elba."
Elba.jpg
 
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81usaf92

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There is also a time factor to decisions like this.
In November 1813, the members of the 6th Coalition offered Napoleon peace in exchange for "natural borders" Pyrenees, Alps and the Rhine. (the so-called Frankfurt Proposals)
View attachment 52235
Napoleon refused. "I'm going to get it all back. Why settle for less than all of it?"
By December, when the Allies crossed the French frontier and Austria joined the Coalition, Napoleon decide to accept but by then the Allies had changed their proposal to the 1791 borders of France.
View attachment 52236
Note the difference. In November, the Allies agreed to allow the French to keep Belgium and the Rhineland west of the Rhine. By December, Belgium and the Rhineland were no longer offered. Napoleon refused and eventually (1814 was forced to become "Emperor of Elba").
View attachment 52237
Napoleon is undoubtedly the greatest military mind with possibly only Genghis Khan as a rival. He was one of the best statesmen too. The Napoleonic Code coming from a guy that was always counted out is still amazing.

However after kicking Europe’s butt for 5 straight wars with the odds heavily stacked against you would give just about anyone an ego the size of Russia. I think Napoleon’s downfall was his marriage to Marie Louise made him think he was capable of doing anything. Everyone talks about his invasion of Russia but his war in Spain was probably just as costly. His belief that he could control complex situations with the military and his reputation costed him. He was making egotistical mistakes and starting to make careless mistakes. He was attacking points on the map instead of creating traps, he was thinking peace was weakness and that his marriage to Marie took the Austrians off the table of enemies. Ultimately the Napoleon of the 6th coalition wasn’t the same guy that won At Austerlitz.
 

some_al_fan

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I think it is more accurate that Milley underestimated Russia stupidity and incompetence than Ukraine military strength...
It is a little bit of both, russian incompleteness and underestimating the Ukrainians:
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As pointed out by Rose Gottemoeller, former NATO Deputy Secretary General, “We underestimated the Ukrainians,” as Western officials expected a swift military defeat and the collapse of the government. This success is naturally the result of extensive efforts undertaken after the 2014 military defeat against Russia.
———

 

Tidewater

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It is a little bit of both, russian incompleteness and underestimating the Ukrainians:
-----
As pointed out by Rose Gottemoeller, former NATO Deputy Secretary General, “We underestimated the Ukrainians,” as Western officials expected a swift military defeat and the collapse of the government. This success is naturally the result of extensive efforts undertaken after the 2014 military defeat against Russia.
———

Part of the problem with assessing the likelihood of Ukrainians success and parrying the Russian invasion was that, between 2014 and 2022, there were a lot of programs to train Ukrainians (Canadians, Brits, Americans), but they were bilateral, not NATO-run programs. Left hand, right hand.
It turns out that Russia invading Ukraine in 2014 was strategically stupid, since it woke the Ukrainians up and they got serious about national defense.
The Ukrainians were much better prepared in 2022 than they were in 2014.
 
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Tidewater

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Harry Enten from CNN showed polling yesterday that reflected 2/3 of Ukrainian people want to see an end to the war.
The devil, I would imagine, is in the details.
If the pollster were to place conditions on that (i.e. peace, but Russia continues to occupy the Ukrainian land it now does, no reparations, no NATO membership for Ukraine just "security guarantees" and EU economic and NATO military aid to Ukraine, I would be interested in the poll results under those conditions.
 

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