Almost full-size replica of Noah's ark

[TRUTIDE]

Who believes that? Having a common ancestor and having almost all our DNA in common is not being descended from a monkey. Either you are uninformed or you are disingenuous.

I'm sorry, I was using normal terms. In Darwinistic terms, I should have said...

If you wish to believe that you evolved from an ape like creature (ape), then so be it.

Either way, there is not that big of a difference except in the extreme literal interpretation. Your Darwin even mentions "descended' several times in his own works. He even titles a book The Descent of Man(CAUTION...may not be exact but I'm sure Wiki can clarify). Of course the interpretation of his words has changed over the years because (I believe) some people have a problem telling others that they believe in something that says they descended from an ape. I really can't blame them.

Yeah, stupid walking fish.

Wow! that Wiki sure is useful, is'nt it?

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_ape"]Great Ape[/ame].
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasquatch"]Greater Ape[/ame].
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Evolutionary"]Greatest Ape[/ame].

It is like a Darwinist's bible.

What became known as the Big Bang Theory was proposed by Georges Lemaitre, a professor of physics and astronomy ..... and a Roman Catholic priest. To bad his intelligence makes him a heretic, huh?

I know that but I don't care who proposed it. It is still believed in and reverenced by the evolutionist and many in the science community.

I've known of Roman Catholic priests who like to experiment with little boys. I just heard about a self proclaimed preacher who has had his wife in a freezer for years. I am not in the habit of worshiping men or their ideas and/or theories regardless of their stated riligious beliefs. I have respect for some religious leaders that I have known over the years. They have given me spiritual guidance, pesided over my marraige and babtized my children but I still do not take everything they say to be gospel. They are only men. Just as Darwin, Einstein and others referenced on here are only men. My beliefs are formed within myself by my own free thinking.

I have looked at many religious issues from many different angles. I have spent time with other religions and studied the differing theories of science. All of this only affirms my own personal beliefs. You seem condemn this as ignorance because I do not come to the same conclusions as you. So be it. As I eluded to before, I'm past the point of looking to man to form my beliefs

 

[92tide]

Your Darwin ....

wow bodhi, i didn't realize that you owned darwin. its probably good to diversify your portfolio with men of science. how is that working for you. has it weathered this recent volatility in the markets well?

i was going to pursue some mendel and maybe toy around with newton tomorrow when i call my broker :biggrin:

 

[Bodhisattva]

I'm sorry, I was using normal terms. In Darwinistic terms,

No, you were using incorrect terminology to create a strawman argument by derisively claiming that those who believe in science think they are descended from a monkey.

Wow! that Wiki sure is useful, is'nt it?

Great Ape.
Greater Ape.
Greatest Ape.

It is like a Darwinist's bible.

I'm not sure what you getting at here. In an earlier post you wrote, "But to believe that a fish swam onto land and started walking...how stupid is that?" I showed you it's not stupid because walking fish do in fact exist. Do you now agree? And Wiki is just a quick reference for the purposes of a message board.

And you left out this guy:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk9w9iK-P_s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk9w9iK-P_s[/ame]

I know that but I don't care who proposed it. It is still believed in and reverenced by the evolutionist and many in the science community.

So a pre-eminent scholar in both relgion and science doesn't give you pause to consider that both fields can co-exist?

Just as Darwin, Einstein and others referenced on here are only men. My beliefs are formed within myself by my own free thinking.

I have looked at many religious issues from many different angles. I have spent time with other religions and studied the differing theories of science. All of this only affirms my own personal beliefs. You seem condemn this as ignorance because I do not come to the same conclusions as you. So be it. As I eluded to before, I'm past the point of looking to man to form my beliefs

Well, the Bible was written, compiled and translated by men, no?

 

[Bodhisattva]

wow bodhi, i didn't realize that you owned darwin. its probably good to diversify your portfolio with men of science. how is that working for you. has it weathered this recent volatility in the markets well?

i was going to pursue some mendel and maybe toy around with newton tomorrow when i call my broker :biggrin:

Passive income in the form of royalties. That's some sweet action.

 

[jthomas666]

Great Ape.
Greater Ape.
Greatest Ape.

You missed the next evolutionary step:
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grape_Ape"]Grape Ape[/ame]

(Bodhi, apologies if your youtube video is Grape Ape; my workplace blocks it.)

 

[TRUTIDE]

Well, I'm one of these people you speak of. I spent my entire childhood in the Methodist church. Every single Sunday morning and Sunday and Wednesday night. I've been to church thousands of times and never had any type of religious experience whatsoever. I with born with the affliction of being a skeptic. I have little faith in the words of man so I pretty much question anything anyone tells me. I believed in God in those days because every adult around me told me it was true, but the older I got the less trusting I became. The more I learned about science and history; the more the stories of the Bible started to look like mere mythic storytelling.

The worm really started to turn for me when I started to examine the concepts of heaven and hell. I took notice that my father and his mother weren't Christians at all. They never went to church, prayed at the dinner table, and they never really thanked God for anything. So they obviously were going to hell. Despite their damnation, they're really good people. My grandmother likes working in the garden and watching her great-grandkids swim in the pool. My dad is a devoted family man and a very successful businessman. So why are they going to hell? And if I went to heaven how could I be happy knowing my dad, my grandmother, and also my brother are toiling away in hell and there's nothing I can do about it? What kind of eternal happiness is that?

And who was I going to be in heaven with? I don't really fit in with the evangelical,Christian Coalition crowd. The older I get the more I think I'd rather be in the same place as folks like George Carlin,Mark Twain,Voltaire,Thomas Jefferson,Nietzsche,Mencken,Charlie Chaplin,etc. If there is a hell, I know there's alot more interesting people there. I also don't care for the idea(with no evidence to support it) that there's a Great Scorer in the sky watching everything I do, judging me on my actions, and wanting me to feel guilty about something that he created in my nature. For example, my neighbor's wife is smokin hot. Every heterosexual man that sees her has to have some unpure thoughts. That's all of our natural reaction, yet we could all go to hell for it. Sounds like God's idea of a sick joke.

I really have no animosity toward Christians at all. Whatever someone else wants to believe is absolutely none of my business, but I do condemn those who try to distort science in order to prove their beliefs. As another poster mentioned, religion mostly springs from man's inability to explain the natural world around him. If you don't know why the sun rises each morning then it's logical to say an unseen force is behind it all or even that the sun itself is God. The more we understand about our world; the less we need to use God as an explanation for how the world operates.

I can appreciate what you are saying because I too was raised up in a similar way. Having many childhood friends who were sons of leaders of the church, I probably realized the hypocrisy of the church at a very early age. I had a curious nature and while I did not get spanked every time I asked spiritual questions (as others have said), my questions were still not really answered. Over the years I have kept searching for answers and through various different sources, I have found them. Instead of fearing the evils I was taught as a child, I now cherish the good and the love from my religion and teach my own kids in this way. I have been through many churches over the years and have found the one that all of my family feels good about. I even had my youngest asking to go to church last night and this is something that I have no memory of as a kid. I do not look to the church to raise my kids but it is a good place where they can go and be with other kids with like values.

I can not force my children to become good christians but I can teach them the good and love that comes from my religion. There are many kids out there that do not have this conveinance. My wife has worked with these type kids on a daily basis for over 20 yrs now and they are truly at a disadvantage. More than not will grow up in a life of drugs and crime and this is really sad. They will know nothing else. I'm sure someone will find some convoluted numbers on Wiki that deny this but if you look behind the numbers you will see that since the 60's, the majority of the crimes committed in this country are by underage kids and most of these kids come from broken homes in which many were either sexually or phisically assaulted. My religion may not be the end all for everyone. I had some bad years as a youth as well but I find that my religion has helped me make the right decisions in my life and to raise my kids to know about good and evil.

I am aware that we all have different life experiences and that we will not all think alike but I cannot understand why it is so important to some to discredit other people's religion. This was a thread about Noah's Ark and we had people jumping in from all angles to question the veracity of the boards used to build such an Ark just so we could get into lesson on Darwinism. Talk about forcing one's beliefs.

 

[TRUTIDE]

No, you were using incorrect terminology to create a strawman argument by derisively claiming that those who believe in science think they are descended from a monkey.

Let me get this straight. In the world of Darwin...Darwinist believe that they
-have almost the same DNA as a chimpanzee
-were evolved from an ape-like creatures

Is this literal enough for you? I honestly do not see what you have against monkeys though. It would make one think that they might be subject to discrimination especially in view of this...Spain's parliament voiced its support on Wednesday for the rights of great apes to life and freedom in what will apparently be the first time any national legislature has called for such rights for non-humans.

BTW...how does Darwin relate human brain matter/cranium size (whatever literal term you would use) to apes, monkeys, orangutangs, or whatever?

I'm not sure what you getting at here. In an earlier post you wrote, "But to believe that a fish swam onto land and started walking...how stupid is that?" I showed you it's not stupid because walking fish do in fact exist. Do you now agree? And Wiki is just a quick reference for the purposes of a message board.

Sure, I'll agree to walking fish, talking fish, whatever Wiki says. I am not a big fan of Wiki and that was not really the point. You are right though, it does suffice for an adequate source for this board.

So a pre-eminent scholar in both relgion and science doesn't give you pause to consider that both fields can co-exist?

Science and religion do co-exist.

Well, the Bible was written, compiled and translated by men, no?

Sure, men inspired by God. I do not actually worship any of these men. Nor is my belief system based on their individual deeds.

Grape ape was a nice touch. Many fond childhood memories.

 

[92tide]

chimps and humans DO share about 96% or their DNA, so yes "darwinists" (whatever that means) "believe" this.

link

 

[gmart74]

The LHC is starting up soon, there is a chance it will create a black hole which will destroy the world. so pretty soon i guess we might just see who is right and who is wrong.
oh snap!!

 

[Bodhisattva]

Let me get this straight. In the world of Darwin...Darwinist believe that they
-have almost the same DNA as a chimpanzee

We do have almost the same DNA.

-were evolved from an ape-like creatures

Is this literal enough for you? I honestly do not see what you have against monkeys though.

I have absolutely nothing against monkeys. How could one? They are cute and entertaining. I was just pointing out that we did not evolve from monkeys, which is often an insulting and incorrect charge by the anti-science/evolution crowd.

Sure, men inspired by God. I do not actually worship any of these men. Nor is my belief system based on their individual deeds.

So, we agree that men wrote the works that were later compiled into what is now known as the Bible. How do you know they were inspired by God? Faith. How do you know they transcibed God's inspiration correctly? Faith. How do you know that the translations of these works across languages and time were done by men correctly? Faith. That's a lot of faith .... in man's judgment ... especially since man is highly flawed.

And since a lot of other works inspired by God did not make the biblical cut for political reasons, what does that say about the Bible?

To me, it says it is imperfect.

 

[TRUTIDE]

We do have almost the same DNA.
So, we agree that men wrote the works that were later compiled into what is now known as the Bible. How do you know they were inspired by God? Faith. How do you know they transcibed God's inspiration correctly? Faith. How do you know that the translations of these works across languages and time were done by men correctly? Faith. That's a lot of faith .... in man's judgment ... especially since man is highly flawed.

And since a lot of other works inspired by God did not make the biblical cut for political reasons, what does that say about the Bible?

To me, it says it is imperfect.

Of course faith. I did not witness any of these events 1st hand. The events of the Bible have not been "observed" specifically in modern day but that does not mean they did not happen. I have personally been inspired by God to do many things in my life. I have paid other people's electric bills in the cold of winter so that a woman and her daughter could stay warm at night. I have paid for other families Christmas for children in need. I even cut my elderly neighbors grass somtimes when it is'nt getting done. These occurances were not just some dimwit giving so that someone would pat me on the back. They are usually anonomous and the recipients think the State or Santa Clause is the contributor. I do not go out on a regular basis looking for someone to help either. Opportunities are usually presented to us out of the blue. My wife and I pray about what to do and are led one way or the other. We are inspired in many other ways as well. I say this just to point out that Godly inspiration is not so far fetched a concept to me and it does not take a unusual amount of faith for me to accept.

How do you know that Joan of Arc actually existed? For that matter, was there ever a Hundred Year War? We rely on a collection of accounts from earlier men all the time to reconcile our history. Much of it is translated and normally from numerous sources of a different time. I have read other's accounts of biblical events that were not included in the Bible and have varying opinions of them. Some have helped my understanding more and others I ignore. I was particularly interested the Mary Magdalene accounts. I remember reading everything I could find on her for a while. I have no doubts of the original authors accounts in the Bible. I Believe that they are accurate and have survived the test of time.

A lot of faith in man's judgement? Sure, but I am comfortable with that.

We all exert a great deal of faith in man's judgement in some way or another. I also know that there are differing opinions on the genetic comparisons of human and chimpanzee. What is apparent is that when a scientist starts a testing process with a preconcieved notion, his findings will instintively follow that notion. Should a scientist with a preconcieved notion of evolution look at two DNA sequences, he will see the 4% difference as supporting evolution and common ancestry. A creationist scientist can look at the same two sequences and say the 4% difference is enough to disprove evolution and support a common Designer.

Now, I know that the majority of the scientific communnity will support evolution just as the majority of this country believe in God and the bible. I also know that I am simplifying the whole genetic testing process or whatever it is called. I am just going on your statement that a man's judgement is "highly flawed". I just wanted to point out that man's flaws can be exbited in science as well.

 

[Bodhisattva]

The point is that the Bible cannot be perfect if it was written, translated and compiled by men.

I don't care if you believe in evolution or gravity or anything scientific. I don't care if you believe you talk to God every day and that he talks back.

My only point in this whole thread is the first sentence. And I'm pounding home that point because it is so hard for fundamentalists to admit the obvious. They believe that the Bible is the word of God and that it is a perfect document. It is not. It is the word of God as (imperfectly) understood by men.

How many times do I have to demonstrate that it is not? And again, I belive in God. I'm not attacking Christianity or anything else. I just want people to admit that man is flawed .... in everything he does ..... including recordation of the Bible.

 

[BamaInBham]

The point is that the Bible cannot be perfect if it was written, translated and compiled by men.

I don't care if you believe in evolution or gravity or anything scientific. I don't care if you believe you talk to God every day and that he talks back.

My only point in this whole thread is the first sentence. And I'm pounding home that point because it is so hard for fundamentalists to admit the obvious. They believe that the Bible is the word of God and that it is a perfect document. It is not. It is the word of God as (imperfectly) understood by men.

How many times do I have to demonstrate that it is not? And again, I belive in God. I'm not attacking Christianity or anything else. I just want people to admit that man is flawed .... in everything he does ..... including recordation of the Bible.

No one can demonstrate that the Bible is not the Word of God because it is not possible to prove a lie. The proof that the Bible is the Word of God is that it predicts the future with perfection. It predicted the arrival of Jesus Christ, by date, 483 years before He was crucified. It predicted He would die for man's sin 750 years before He was born. It predicted Cyrus by name 200 years before he came to prominence; the Persian empire 70 years before it came to pass; the Grecian empire 270 years prior to its existence; and the Roman empire 450 years before it came into being. These among many others. The detail regarding the Greek empire is so spectacular that skeptics have spent a couple of centuries in futility, trying to prove that it was written after the fact. The Bible predicted what has happened today regarding Israel returning to her land as a recognized political entity. This after being scattered over the face of the earth for 1870 years, yet retaining her identity - against all odds. Incomprehensible for a writer at that time, unless he was inspired by God.

And that Word contains the only way to salvation.

Peter said, "There is one name under heaven given among men whereby, you must be saved."

Paul wrote, "There is one mediator between God and man..."

Jesus Christ said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Me."

"All flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls off, but the Word of the Lord abides forever."

 

[Bodhisattva]

BIB, I will give you credit for a few things. Your ability to ask for Biblical contradictions and then completely ignore the dozens presented to you while asking for contradictions again is truly outstanding. I think that may only be trumped by your ability to master the use of circular logic. Or perhaps your most accomplished ability is to ignore very simple progressions in logic.

I know you'll ignore this again, but let me try another way.

If A = B, and B = C, then A = C. Simple transitive property.

If Man is imperfect and Man wrote the Bible, then the Bible is imperfect. Get it?

Or perhaps answer me this simple question: if the Bible says that 2+2=5, would it be wrong?

 

[CrimsonSEC]

No one can demonstrate that the Bible is not the Word of God because it is not possible to prove a lie. The proof that the Bible is the Word of God is that it predicts the future with perfection. It predicted the arrival of Jesus Christ, by date, 483 years before He was crucified. It predicted He would die for man's sin 750 years before He was born. It predicted Cyrus by name 200 years before he came to prominence; the Persian empire 70 years before it came to pass; the Grecian empire 270 years prior to its existence; and the Roman empire 450 years before it came into being. These among many others. The detail regarding the Greek empire is so spectacular that skeptics have spent a couple of centuries in futility, trying to prove that it was written after the fact. The Bible predicted what has happened today regarding Israel returning to her land as a recognized political entity. This after being scattered over the face of the earth for 1870 years, yet retaining her identity - against all odds. Incomprehensible for a writer at that time, unless he was inspired by God.

The Bible is such a gargantuan collection of conflicting values that anyone can prove anything from it.
R A Heinlein

Worth repeating

 

[Bodhisattva]

My wife makes out the menu for the week's dinners. It was written that I'd have penne rustica tonight. And it happened! Imagine that. Prophecy fulfilled!

 

[dvldog]

My wife makes out the menu for the week's dinners. It was written that I'd have penne rustica tonight. And it happened! Imagine that. Prophecy fulfilled!

So you wife wrote something down and then worked in your life to make it happen. Hmmm....Sounds about like what God does.

 

[Bodhisattva]

So you wife wrote something down and then worked in your life to make it happen. Hmmm....Sounds about like what God does.

No, I quite confident God has never fixed me dinner.

 

[dvldog]

No, I quite confident God has never fixed me dinner.

Thats not what I said but then you know that.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Thats not what I said but then you know that.

My response was as irrelevant as yours was, but then you know that.

If want to have a serious discussion you can answer the questions I've posed continually throughout this tread. If fundamentalists really have the depth of knowledge they claim, then they shouldn't be afraid to answer some straight forward questions. So far the only feedback I've received is in the form of circular logic, non sequiturs and spin. I'm not surprised, of course.