Florida woman shoots and kills a man in Wal Mart parking lot. Self defense or not?

[Bamabuzzard]

LINK

I'm not sure how many of you have seen this, but it will be interesting to see how this plays out in the courts. Considering the recent Karmelo Anthony case and how that was not ruled as self defense. There are some nuances to this recent Florida shooting that when considered, could easily sway the case in one direction or the other. That's where good lawyers will come into play.

 

[JDCrimson]

LINK

I'm not sure how many of you have seen this, but it will be interesting to see how this plays out in the courts. Considering the recent Karmelo Anthony case and how that was not ruled as self defense. There are some nuances to this recent Florida shooting that when considered, could easily sway the case in one direction or the other. That's where good lawyers will come into play.

Reading the article only it sounds like he encountered a Karen with a gun...

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Reading the article only it sounds like he encountered a Karen with a gun...

Find the video and watch it. It is much, much more complicated than that. Ultimately, I think at different points in the situation, both were in the wrong, legally. It's just which lawyer is going to sway the jury.

 

[4Q Basket Case]

It is a close call. She was retreating, but with the pistol clearly pointed at him. He kept advancing on her but never got closer than 8-10 feet or so. At least not on the video I saw. Was her life in danger? Hard to say, because that depends on what was going on between her ears.

In as calm a voice as I think any of us could muster in a similar situation, she was telling him to walk away, but he kept on coming and she kept on backing up. The video cut just before the shot, so I don't know how close he was when she pulled the trigger.

In a close call, really based on reasonable doubt, I side with the woman.

Expect the press to make the biggest deal not out of the self-defense question, but about the fact that it's a white man shot by a black woman.

 

[Con]

I saw this on the news. This was all over a parking space. Just crazy!

 

[92tide]

I saw this on the news. This was all over a parking space. Just crazy!

road rage and guns are a bad combo

 

[Bodhisattva]

I'm waiting for the MSM to stress in their headlines that the man was unarmed and post a picture of him as a 10-year-old.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

It is a close call. She was retreating, but with the pistol clearly pointed at him. He kept advancing on her but never got closer than 8-10 feet or so. At least not on the video I saw. Was her life in danger? Hard to say, because that depends on what was going on between her ears.

In as calm a voice as I think any of us could muster in a similar situation, she was telling him to walk away, but he kept on coming and she kept on backing up. The video cut just before the shot, so I don't know how close he was when she pulled the trigger.

In a close call, really based on reasonable doubt, I side with the woman.

Expect the press to make the biggest deal not out of the self-defense question, but about the fact that it's a white man shot by a black woman.

What's going to get the woman's claim for self defense in trouble is they have video of her getting out of the car with the gun in her hand at a point in the altercation where the man wasn't even in her area. She got out of the car with the gun, walked over to the minivan parked beside her to ask where the man went. The person in the minivan pointed to where the man had walked off to. Now how the man got BACK engaged into the altercation is beyond me. I haven't seen video tying those sequence of events together.

Then on the other hand, he was repeatedly told by the woman (pointing the gun at him) to stop walking toward her and yet he continued. I think both parties crossed legal lines during the altercation.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Video Link

Here's the video of her getting out of the car with the gun in her hand and the man is not around. She walks over to the vehicle next to her and starts talking then the video cuts directly to the guy being back in the picture. For some reason there's not a continuous video of when she got out of the car, went over to the vehicle next to her and started talking to them, and then the man walking back into the situation.

 

[4Q Basket Case]

What's going to get the woman's claim for self defense in trouble is they have video of her getting out of the car with the gun in her hand at a point in the altercation where the man wasn't even in her area. She got out of the car with the gun, walked over to the minivan parked beside her to ask where the man went. The person in the minivan pointed to where the man had walked off to. Now how the man got BACK engaged into the altercation is beyond me. I haven't seen video tying those sequence of events together.

Then on the other hand, he was repeatedly told by the woman (pointing the gun at him) to stop walking toward her and yet he continued. I think both parties crossed legal lines during the altercation.

Interesting point on when she had the gun out, but I wonder if that matters.

It strikes me that her asking where the man went is more damaging and raises the possibility that she was seeking him out.

Still, she didn't shoot him at either of those points, when her life clearly wasn't in danger. She just had the gun out.

She shot him later while she was retreating, telling him to walk away, and he continued to advance.

She may or may not have been looking for an excuse to shoot him anyway. But that's not enough to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. "May or may not have been" strikes me as the very definition of reasonable doubt.

Of course, all of that assumes the video shows the full story. If more evidence comes out, it could make the claim of self-defense stronger or weaker.

 

[crimsonaudio]

100% self defense from the video I’ve seen - she was retreating while telling him to back up and he continued chasing her. Had he gotten ahold of her this story might have ended very differently.

I doubt she’s even charged, nor should she be, imo. Self defense laws exist to level the playing field, just like this case.

 

[AWRTR]

These kind of incidents are why I don't get into confrontations like this. I make sure to avoid these things because they can escalate so quickly. A street fight can end in death or great bodily harm so quickly. Someone falls and hits their head on the ground and they are dead and you are in jail or the other way around. You never know who is crazy and has a gun. I can just go find another parking space and move on with my day. I carry a gun pretty much everywhere I go, but I never want to have to use it.

 

[92tide]

Video Link

Here's the video of her getting out of the car with the gun in her hand and the man is not around. She walks over to the vehicle next to her and starts talking then the video cuts directly to the guy being back in the picture. For some reason there's not a continuous video of when she got out of the car, went over to the vehicle next to her and started talking to them, and then the man walking back into the situation.

i don’t know all of the nuances around it, or if it’s a thing in florida, but it seems like that could be considered brandishing

 

[crimsonaudio]

i don’t know all of the nuances around it, or if it’s a thing in florida, but it seems like that could be considered brandishing

That's brandishing in Florida, no question.

That said, self defense often separates situations like this and the follow-up from the man.

In a perfect world she'd be hit with the misdemeanor charge that goes along with the 'improper exhibition of a firearm' while not being charged for the self-defense shooting.

 

[Huckleberry]

I think both people were very stupid, and it cost a life. He was an idiot to keep advancing on someone who was armed and scared, so I think she has a real self-defense argument on the shooting. But if she got out of her car and introduced the gun into a parking spot argument before there was a real threat, she should be charged with improper exhibition of a firearm. Self-defense may explain the final shot, but it should not automatically excuse every bad decision that led up to it.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Being a lawyer, I've followed these "stand your ground laws" cases with interest. It seems to me that juries are not really following the letter of the law. She has satisfied that. How far is she obligated to back up? OTOH, there have been a couple of convictions here lately where the letter of the law seemed to have been complied with, one where the guy was standing in his own front yard, which satisfied the OLD law. It seems to me that the juries are applying a "common sense" standard instead. My law partner of many years once got robbed at gunpoint in the parking lot of an apartment complex he owned. He told me that, when you're looking at the business end of a gun and told to freeze, you freeze. This guy chose to bet with his life she was bluffing. That is the height of stupidity...

 

[4Q Basket Case]

That's brandishing in Florida, no question.

That said, self defense often separates situations like this and the follow-up from the man.

In a perfect world she'd be hit with the misdemeanor charge that goes along with the 'improper exhibition of a firearm' while not being charged for the self-defense shooting.

I think both people were very stupid, and it cost a life. He was an idiot to keep advancing on someone who was armed and scared, so I think she has a real self-defense argument on the shooting. But if she got out of her car and introduced the gun into a parking spot argument before there was a real threat, she should be charged with improper exhibition of a firearm. Self-defense may explain the final shot, but it should not automatically excuse every bad decision that led up to it.

Sound logic, avoiding red herrings.

Thanks for the well-reasoned and well-written explanations.

And yeah, the guy was a maroon. Advancing, unarmed, on a scared armed person who is telling you to walk away, is beyond stupid. As CA often says, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

 

[Crimson1967]

With that parking job he deserved to be shot.

A good rule of thumb is “don’t engage crazy”. You might be in the right, but being right doesn’t help if you’re dead. A woman pulling a gun in a Wal-Mart parking lot is what I would consider to be crazy. Walk away as quickly as possible.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Interesting point on when she had the gun out, but I wonder if that matters.

It strikes me that her asking where the man went is more damaging and raises the possibility that she was seeking him out.

Still, she didn't shoot him at either of those points, when her life clearly wasn't in danger. She just had the gun out.

She shot him later while she was retreating, telling him to walk away, and he continued to advance.

She may or may not have been looking for an excuse to shoot him anyway. But that's not enough to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. "May or may not have been" strikes me as the very definition of reasonable doubt.

Of course, all of that assumes the video shows the full story. If more evidence comes out, it could make the claim of self-defense stronger or weaker.

If it were in Louisiana and she got out of the car with the gun and her life wasn't in jeopardy, then begin asking "where" was the other party, then ultimately it ended in her shooting him. She'd be guilty. She had a window of opportunity to remove herself from the situation but decided not to. At that point, self defense goes out the window in Louisiana.

 

[Tidewater]

I just watched the video. A lot depends on what he was carrying, what he said, and what she said.
She is retreating (repeatedly), which indicates an attempt to de-escalate.
Was he carrying some kind of weapon?
Was he saying he was going to kill her?
Did she say, "Stop approaching me or I'm going to have to defend myself?"

The whole thing is sad. It's a parking spot. There were other empty parking spots available. Heck the guy died in an empty parking spot.

A life should come with an owner's manual (Padreruf knows one). There should be a chapter "How to be a mensch."