Issues in Education

That's the thing: they have and they do. That's one of the things that has made this as impressive as it is. I'm still a new (ish) Christian myself, so I'd be utterly lost in a TLM at first. Nevertheless, the order of the mass isn't hard to keep up with and it wouldn't take a significant amount of brain power to learn at least that.

Having said all this, there is a zero-percent chance that the church would completely revert back to the TLM. For better or worse, the Novus Ordo is here to stay. Its chief architect, Annibale Bugnini, L'Osservatore Romano, had this to say about it:



I think this is where much of the hostility came from back in 1965. Ecumenicism is a good thing, but some felt like the church had capitulated entirely too much. I haven't formed an opinion on this point of view as yet and to be honest, I feel like it has kind of failed regardless. I didn't expect to receive so much criticism when I joined the church, but most viewpoints seemed to be in the vein of, "You joined what?! Don't you know they are all going to hell for [insert accusation here]?!" I can't say I wasn't warned this would happen, but jeez.
LOL! I have my own opinion about anyone who would consign anyone to hell for their beliefs, but they're best kept to myself. I'm a singer and I've sung the mass many times. As I mentioned, I know what I'm singing, when many singers are simply singing unknown words phonetically. I literally lost track a long time ago of the number of times I have sung Gounod's Sanctus from his St. Cecilia's mass as a solo - in protestant churches. I sometimes have to control emotion singing the Requiem, particularly Rutter's. However, that doesn't mean that I endorse nor support some of the theology behind it, principally transubstantiation. I can see the Latin mass preserved for high occasions, particularly when in a musical setting. There's really nothing in singing it, per se, that I find offensive, as a protestant. So there's no tension there for me. As the basis for weekly worship in a meaningful manner, Luther was right...
 
Any other “holy books” or just the Bible? And which Bible?

For instance, one of the required readings for high school English is the second chapter of Genesis, which discusses the creation of Adam and Eve. The proposal before the education board requires teachers to use the New International Readers Version of the Bible, taken from the most widely read English translation and simplified to third-grade reading level.

In the version of Genesis intended for Texas schoolchildren, God does not want Adam to be alone and creates a variety of animals so he may find "a helper who is just right for him." When the animals fall short, God creates a woman from one of Adam's ribs. Eve is described as the "helper that was just right" for Adam.

The proposed Texas reading list also includes passages from the King James Bible, one of the most popular and well-known translations, and the English Standard Version, one of the best-selling Bibles among conservative evangelicals in recent years.

The proposed reading of Lamentations Chapter 3 is the only scriptural reference taken from the Tanakh. Catholic-approved translations of the Bible, as well as sacred texts from non-Christian or non-Jewish faiths, are not present at all.





Can a teacher refer to these as fictional stories as they can other books? And if they can read from the Bible, which certainly contains passages no one would ever read to children, can they read non-objectionable material from any book or just the ones approved by the groomers in Texas?
 

For instance, one of the required readings for high school English is the second chapter of Genesis, which discusses the creation of Adam and Eve. The proposal before the education board requires teachers to use the New International Readers Version of the Bible, taken from the most widely read English translation and simplified to third-grade reading level.

In the version of Genesis intended for Texas schoolchildren, God does not want Adam to be alone and creates a variety of animals so he may find "a helper who is just right for him." When the animals fall short, God creates a woman from one of Adam's ribs. Eve is described as the "helper that was just right" for Adam.

The proposed Texas reading list also includes passages from the King James Bible, one of the most popular and well-known translations, and the English Standard Version, one of the best-selling Bibles among conservative evangelicals in recent years.

The proposed reading of Lamentations Chapter 3 is the only scriptural reference taken from the Tanakh. Catholic-approved translations of the Bible, as well as sacred texts from non-Christian or non-Jewish faiths, are not present at all.





Can a teacher refer to these as fictional stories as they can other books? And if they can read from the Bible, which certainly contains passages no one would ever read to children, can they read non-objectionable material from any book or just the ones approved by the groomers in Texas?

Yeah, what could POSSIBLY GO WRONG with this?! LOL! These idiots are going to get so many unintended consequences they're not going to know what hit them. But sometimes, you need to get what you asked to realize how stupid of an idea it really was. Geeze...
 
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Reporting Highlights​

  • Private School Abuse: At an Arkansas school, a boy was hit by the school’s founder and attacked by classmates in a group session the founder led, prompting a complaint and her arrest.
  • State Money Still Flows: Despite a jail term for the school’s founder, The Delta Institute for the Developing Brain continues to operate and Arkansas still sends it public funds.
  • Unregulated and Growing: By design, private schools get little oversight in Arkansas even as new opportunities to receive state money have spurred a boom in openings since 2023.

...
“If you are going to take public money, then you should meet public standards and be publicly accountable for how that money is spent,” said Bill Kopsky, executive director of the Arkansas Public Policy Panel, a nonprofit that was formed in the 1960s and focuses on social justice.
...
In order to accept EFA money, private schools have to agree to meet some requirements, including that they have or are seeking accreditation, have operated for a year and promise to perform background checks and fingerprinting on all employees. (There’s no requirement that employees have no criminal history.) Schools affirm they’ll teach English, math, science and social studies and administer a standardized test of their choosing once a year. There’s no requirement to report students’ individual test scores to the state or to parents.

The bar is lower for microschools, some of which operate like smaller versions of private schools while others provide programs for homeschoolers. They don’t need to be accredited or wait until they’ve been open for a year to get funding.

The contrast with what is required for public schools is striking. Arkansas’ Education Department monitors public schools, and state law regulates nearly every aspect of them, from teacher qualifications to what’s on district websites. Every district is required to post a tranche of “state-required information” online that must include breakdowns of monthly expenses and even a list of every dyslexia intervention program used.

State Sen. Bryan King, a Republican, said he supports school choice but said he voted against the LEARNS Act because there wasn’t enough accountability given the amount of public spending. He proposed legislation this spring that would have required all schools receiving EFA funds to administer the same standardized test — and for funding to be tied to student performance on that exam.

“We can’t afford this and my concerns were about financial responsibility, accountability, transparency, everything about it,” he said.

The proposal did not advance. King was attacked in the primary this year for being against “education freedom,” and Sanders backed his opponent. King still prevailed.








Problems like these are a feature of the GOP's plan to destroy public education. In Florida, auditors found that the state could not adequately account for roughly $270 million tied to 30,000 voucher students. The state then continued pouring about $4 billion into the program, while lawmakers failed to enact the major oversight reforms intended to prevent the same tracking problems from happening again.

It's not about improving education. It's about funneling taxpayer money to corporations and political allies while draining resources from traditional public schools, all in the name of parental choice.
Florida hands private schools billions in public money, but barely monitors what they teach, whether their teachers are qualified, or whether students are actually getting a solid education. The schools do not have to follow state standards, use the same tests, earn school grades, or face the same accountability as public schools.

Public money should come with public oversight.
 
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Private schools are a lot like public schools in that they are hit and miss. We've got a mixed bag in our area when it comes to private schools and their quality. There are two that you wouldn't want to send your worst enemy to. Then, there are three that once you graduate, you already have an associate degree entering college. They are outstanding schools that don't take one penny of public funds.

Public schools tend to be the same, depending on who the principal is and the staff he/she has hired, will dictate the quality of education the school puts out.

But honestly, if a private school accepts taxpayer dollars and if the taxpayers allow private schools to accept their dollars, then it should no longer be a private school. It just muddies the waters too much. You can either stand alone as a private school or you can't. There shouldn't be taxpayer money subsidizing any aspect of it.
 
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I would prefer not to have my child trapped in a garbage public school. Thankfully, while still having to pay for said garbage school, my wife and I could afford to double-pay and send Lily to a private school from pre-k to 7th grade, until we moved to Florida. That money was my money, not the government's. I should be able to do what's best for my child, not what is best for government and unions. If government/union schools were of good quality, there wouldn't be the clamor for something better.

NYC spends $42k/student/year and the schools are terrible. Yet, the solution from the left is just to whine for more money. SMH.
 
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I would prefer not to have my child trapped in a garbage public school. Thankfully, while still having to pay for said garbage school, my wife and I could afford to double-pay and send Lily to a private school from pre-k to 7th grade, until we moved to Florida. That money was my money, not the government's. I should be able to do what's best for my child, not what is best for government and unions. If government/union schools were of good quality, there wouldn't be the clamor for something better.
Yes, all government schools are garbage and it's clear that the teachers' unions are responsible. What a waste my career has been.

You paid for private school with your own money. Did anyone try to make you spend it somewhere else?

Have you ever looked at how much power the unions have in Florida?

Clearly the answer is to pour billions into private schools with no accountability or real standards.

NYC spends $42k/student/year and the schools are terrible. Yet, the solution from the left is just to whine for more money. SMH.
Really? That's it? More money? No other ideas?

There have been plenty of ideas besides just spending more. NYC has pushed common reading and math programs, smaller classes, tutoring, attendance programs, more mental health support, and higher teacher pay and improved recruitment for hard-to-staff schools and subjects. Other solutions include merging half empty schools (something that should have already happened), cutting central office costs, reviewing existing contracts, expanding charter schools, and replacing leadership at schools that keep failing. The real argument is over which changes actually work.

Yes, some unions can be a real issue with public school spending and policy issues, but smearing an entire profession to justify political leanings is undeniably unfair.
 
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Yes, all government schools are garbage and it's clear that the teachers' unions are responsible. What a waste my career has been.

You paid for private school with your own money. Did anyone try to make you spend it somewhere else?

Have you ever looked at how much power the unions have in Florida?

Clearly the answer is to pour billions into private schools with no accountability or real standards.


Really? That's it? More money? No other ideas?

There have been plenty of ideas besides just spending more. NYC has pushed common reading and math programs, smaller classes, tutoring, attendance programs, more mental health support, and higher teacher pay and improved recruitment for hard-to-staff schools and subjects. Other solutions include merging half empty schools (something that should have already happened), cutting central office costs, reviewing existing contracts, expanding charter schools, and replacing leadership at schools that keep failing. The real argument is over which changes actually work.

Yes, some unions can be a real issue with public school spending and policy issues, but smearing an entire profession to justify political leanings is undeniably unfair.

No one said "all." Strawman argument. Public schools in NY, LA, Chicago, DC, Baltimore overwhelmingly suck, yet are very expensive. Yay? And unions and the big government crowd always want more money.

I have always said I would not put Lily in a garbage school - public or private, When we moved to Florida, Lily attended public school because the quality was very good. Not sure why lefties are so concerned about what people want to do with their own money. Spend your money however you want. Raise your kids however you want. Do me the same courtesy.

You wouldn't go back to a restaurant that overcharged you and gave you food poisoning. You wouldn't go back to a mechanic that destroyed your car. You wouldn't go back to a doctor that mutilated you. Yet, the big government crowd will continue to champion garbage schools. Tribalism is bizarre.
 
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Not one said "all." Public schools in NY, LA, Chicago, DC, Baltimore overwhelmingly suck, yet are very expensive. Yay? And unions and the big government crowd always want more money.

I have always said I would not put Lily in a garbage school - public or private, When we moved to Florida, Lily attended public school because the quality was very good. Not sure why lefties are so concerned about what people want to do with their own money. Spend your money however you want. Raise your kids however you want. Do me the same courtesy.
"If government/union schools were of good quality, there wouldn't be the clamor for something better." There is plenty of clamoring for something better (well, different anyway) in Florida, home of the high-quality public schools. Billions of tax dollars sent to private schools with very little oversight. Every single public school and district has to account for the money they spend and the results they achieve. If private schools (particularly corporate for-profit and religious types) want tax dollars, they should be held accountable as well.
 
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Who provides the oversight? A government school bureaucrat or union member? I can decide how to best spend my money. The market decides what restaurants/mechanics/movies/etc. succeed. Don't need someone else telling me what school I could send Lily to.
 
Who provides the oversight? A government school bureaucrat or union member? I can decide how to best spend my money. The market decides what restaurants/mechanics/movies/etc. succeed. Don't need someone else telling me what school I could send Lily to.
Elected school boards and DeSantis appointees provide the oversight. You know that. No one is telling you how to spend your money. Vouchers aren't your money. Are you advocating that public schools be eliminated and everyone just send their kids where they want? Let the free market educate our children?
 
Elected school boards and DeSantis appointees provide the oversight. You know that. No one is telling you how to spend your money. Vouchers aren't your money. Are you advocating that public schools be eliminated and everyone just send their kids where they want? Let the free market educate our children?

If I have to pay for a school I don't send my kid to, then yes, I'm being told how to spend my money. Florida provided a better experience than Virginia.

I'm advocating that garbage schools be eliminated based on market forces. Why would anyone continue to champion schools that suck? Losers should be allowed to fail, not continually subsidized and propped up.
 
If I have to pay for a school I don't send my kid to, then yes, I'm being told how to spend my money. Florida provided a better experience than Virginia.

I'm advocating that garbage schools be eliminated based on market forces. Why would anyone continue to champion schools that suck? Losers should be allowed to fail, not continually subsidized and propped up.
If I have to pay for a war that I don't support, I'm being told how to spend my money.

Let's take that philosophy further then. Those without kids in school shouldn't have to pay taxes for schools. Those with kids send them to the school based on what they can afford. A few can send their 8 year old to the fancy school with great teachers, most to the mediocre school with average teachers, and some to the poor school with uncertified teachers and laughable curriculum. No pesky government oversight or treacherous union folks to impede the glory of the free market. Will everything be better then?

Garbage schools won't be eliminated. There will just be a subset who either use them or do without. I respect the admirable charity work you do, but there aren't nearly enough people with your situation or outlook around to take care of those that free market education will leave out.
 
If I have to pay for a war that I don't support, I'm being told how to spend my money.{/Quote]

Big government is stupid and expensive. Limited government is stupid and far less expensive. I prefer the second option.

Let's take that philosophy further then. Those without kids in school shouldn't have to pay taxes for schools. Those with kids send them to the school based on what they can afford. A few can send their 8 year old to the fancy school with great teachers, most to the mediocre school with average teachers, and some to the poor school with uncertified teachers and laughable curriculum. No pesky government oversight or treacherous union folks to impede the glory of the free market. Will everything be better then?

If not the originator, Milton Friedman was a champion of what came to be known as vouchers. Everyone got an equal share of the tax revenue earmarked for education. The parents would pick the best option for their kids, not dummies in government. If enough people decided a particular school sucks, it ceases to exists. As it should. I will always trust markets over government dictates.

Garbage schools won't be eliminated. There will just be a subset who either use them or do without. I respect the admirable charity work you do, but there aren't nearly enough people with your situation or outlook around to take care of those that free market education will leave out.

Garbage schools should be eliminated. It boggles the mind that people keep making excuses for failure. Don't kids matter? The free market doesn't leave people out. Government/union schools do. Just look at what the public schools in NY, Seattle, LA, Chicago, DC, Baltimore, etc. do. They are terrible. Millions of kids are graduating that are barely functional.
 
Big government is stupid and expensive. Limited government is stupid and far less expensive. I prefer the second option.
OK.
If not the originator, Milton Friedman was a champion of what came to be known as vouchers. Everyone got an equal share of the tax revenue earmarked for education. The parents would pick the best option for their kids, not dummies in government. If enough people decided a particular school sucks, it ceases to exists. As it should. I will always trust markets over government dictates.
That works better as a slogan than as education policy. Parents do not all have the same choices, transportation, time, or information, and private schools can simply reject the kids they do not want.

Markets serve customers they find profitable. Public schools have to serve every child, including disabled students, poor students, and difficult students. When a school fails, the children do not vanish with the business. They pay the price.

The free market doesn't leave people out.
The free market leaves people out all the time. It leaves out anyone who is too expensive, too difficult, too disabled, too poor, or too inconvenient to serve profitably.

Public schools have serious problems, especially in some big cities. But private schools get to choose their students, remove the ones they do not want, and often avoid the hardest cases entirely. That is not proof the market serves everyone. It is proof that excluding people makes your numbers look better.
 
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OK.

That works better as a slogan than as education policy. Parents do not all have the same choices, transportation, time, or information, and private schools can simply reject the kids they do not want.

Markets serve customers they find profitable. Public schools have to serve every child, including disabled students, poor students, and difficult students. When a school fails, the children do not vanish with the business. They pay the price.


The free market leaves people out all the time. It leaves out anyone who is too expensive, too difficult, too disabled, too poor, or too inconvenient to serve profitably.

Public schools have serious problems, especially in some big cities. But private schools get to choose their students, remove the ones they do not want, and often avoid the hardest cases entirely. That is not proof the market serves everyone. It is proof that excluding people makes your numbers look better.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how markets work. With more demand for good schools, there will be more supply of good schools. Just like with anything else. Less demand for garbage schools, there will be less supply of garbage schools. Both results are desirable.

Relying on garbage schools to magically become good schools is dooming kids to ignorance and violence. If the government has a magic wand, why isn't it using it to make things better? Instead we get fraud at an obscene level. Many school systems just graduates thousands of kids that don't attend schools. Grades less than a C are banned. Allowing kids to use a butchered form of the English language is perfectly acceptable. For the money that is spent on many public schools, kids could be sent to quality alternatives.

As I wrote earlier: You wouldn't go back to a restaurant that overcharged you and gave you food poisoning. You wouldn't go back to a mechanic that destroyed your car. You wouldn't go back to a doctor that mutilated you.

Why does the left demand so little of our education system?
 
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This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how markets work. With more demand for good schools, there will be more supply of good schools. Just like with anything else. Less demand for garbage schools, there will be less supply of garbage schools. Both results are desirable.

Relying on garbage schools to magically become good schools is dooming kids to ignorance and violence. If the government has a magic wand, why isn't it using it to make things better? Instead we get fraud at an obscene level. Many school systems just graduates thousands of kids that don't attend schools. Grades less than a C are banned. Allowing kids to use a butchered form of the English language is perfectly acceptable. For the money that is spent on many public schools, kids could be sent to quality alternatives.

As I wrote earlier: You wouldn't go back to a restaurant that overcharged you and gave you food poisoning. You wouldn't go back to a mechanic that destroyed your car. You wouldn't go back to a doctor that mutilated you.

Why does the left demand so little of our education system?
I can't speak for the left (though I'm likely to the left of you), but it's probably because a school is not a restaurant, mechanic, or doctor, and children are not interchangeable customers.

The market does leave people out. Profit is the ultimate goal, of course. A private school can reject a disabled child, expel a difficult one, or charge more than the voucher covers. Public schools cannot simply stop serving the kids who are hardest and most expensive to educate.

Nobody is demanding less of public schools. The disagreement is over whether the answer to failing schools is to fix them or drain money from them and hand it to greedy and self-serving private operators with less oversight and few standards. Calling that “the market” does not magically make every child profitable to serve. Most free market absolutists know this but happily ignore it, as it's not something that will personally affect them.
 
Where we raised our chirruns (Memphis) the public schools are absolutely atrocious, both acaemically and socially. We tried private school, but that came with it's own compromises, so eventually we chose to homeschool. No regrets.

That said, I'm happy to pay property taxes that fund the public school system - did when we had younger kids and chose not to utitlze public education and do so now that our kids are all grown. We feel this way because good schools are fundmental to an educated society, which is what we want to live in.

That said, poor schools should be allowed to 'fail' - that doesn't mean tear it down and sell the land, but rather wholesale cleaning out of the administrators and teachers, as needed. This seems to be where the failure occurs the most (from the outside) - too many crappy administrators and teachers continue to remain employed at some level when they should be fired for poor performance. That's the part the market gets right, but GOOD public schools are absolutely needed.
 
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