Politics: 2020 Dem POTUS candidate catch all discussion thread

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NationalTitles18

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I feel a need to comment on your assertions in regard to capitalism being the primary engine supporting the rise of the standard of living in the US. We could discuss the drivers of US prosperity for weeks but can likely agree that the excesses of unconstrained capitalism causes it to self-destruct. It would be difficult to argue against its boom and bust characteristics.

The main point I feel needs to be made is the role of countervailing power in preventing Capitalism's worst traits from its self destructive nature. I think of Eugene Debs who led organizing of railroad workers near the turn of the century, the hay market riots that ultimately led to organizing the agricultural equipment industry, the UMW who fought pitched battles across the entire US, including Alabama, to organize mines and improve working conditions and the UAW which became the most progressive labor organization in the world. As an aside the Lech Wałęsa led Solidarity movement in Poland took its name from the UAW motto in the US after he met with the UAW in Detroit.

Labor's political influence led to the Wagner Act and Occupational Health and Safety Act and supported the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts.

This leads me to believe that the perpetual struggle between labor and capitalism has been a significant benefit to our economy and is the engine that has generated the middle class prosperity in US.

We could likely agree that there has been no balance of power in this modern global economy and it is leading us to a major destruct cycle.
Point taken. Also, capitalism unbridled nearly removed bison from the Earth and does have a corrupt and destructive side, which is why I said "The best we can hope for is enough regulation to keep naked greed in check and enough awareness and respect (even if only by consumer pressure) for social responsibilities to keep behaviors in line with such sentiments."
 

TIDE-HSV

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I feel a need to comment on your assertions in regard to capitalism being the primary engine supporting the rise of the standard of living in the US. We could discuss the drivers of US prosperity for weeks but can likely agree that the excesses of unconstrained capitalism causes it to self-destruct. It would be difficult to argue against its boom and bust characteristics.

The main point I feel needs to be made is the role of countervailing power in preventing Capitalism's worst traits from its self destructive nature. I think of Eugene Debs who led organizing of railroad workers near the turn of the century, the hay market riots that ultimately led to organizing the agricultural equipment industry, the UMW who fought pitched battles across the entire US, including Alabama, to organize mines and improve working conditions and the UAW which became the most progressive labor organization in the world. As an aside the Lech Wałęsa led Solidarity movement in Poland took its name from the UAW motto in the US after he met with the UAW in Detroit.

Labor's political influence led to the Wagner Act and Occupational Health and Safety Act and supported the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts.

This leads me to believe that the perpetual struggle between labor and capitalism has been a significant benefit to our economy and is the engine that has generated the middle class prosperity in US.

We could likely agree that there has been no balance of power in this modern global economy and it is leading us to a major destruct cycle.
I picked up an interesting debate on whether the financial superstructure was safer or not than 2008. On the "pro" side was a former Federal Reserve officer. The "con" side was a former financial heavy hitter from, I think, Goldman-Sachs. I must say that I was more convinced of the "con" side and the banks keep pressing more and more to get back to where they can gamble with depositors' money...
 

TIDE-HSV

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Point taken. Also, capitalism unbridled nearly removed bison from the Earth and does have a corrupt and destructive side, which is why I said "The best we can hope for is enough regulation to keep naked greed in check and enough awareness and respect (even if only by consumer pressure) for social responsibilities to keep behaviors in line with such sentiments."
"Tragedy of the Commons"...
 

UAH

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I picked up an interesting debate on whether the financial superstructure was safer or not than 2008. On the "pro" side was a former Federal Reserve officer. The "con" side was a former financial heavy hitter from, I think, Goldman-Sachs. I must say that I was more convinced of the "con" side and the banks keep pressing more and more to get back to where they can gamble with depositors' money...
Over the years the greatest concern I have seen from the financial industry has been the Federal Reserve's, from Greenspan forward, unwillingness to allow a workout of excess capacity in banking or commerce in our system. Consequently we have gone from one bubble, technology to the next, housing. The prevailing attitude has been...we will inflate our problem away. It is undeniable if we look at a DOW of 8,200 in 2009 to a high of over 26,000 in 2018. No one could possible argue that there has been value creation to that magnitude. It is essentially the Fed printing press at work. A government entity creating money by purchasing its own debt and essentially providing free paper to the banking system. I might add, effectively robbing every holder of paper assets in the process.

Common sense tells us this portends Armageddon. A government creating deficits as far as the eye can see... so far beyond its ability to possibly service the debt. At some point, no one can say for sure, the dollar becomes virtually worthless.
 

92tide

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Over the years the greatest concern I have seen from the financial industry has been the Federal Reserve's, from Greenspan forward, unwillingness to allow a workout of excess capacity in banking or commerce in our system. Consequently we have gone from one bubble, technology to the next, housing. The prevailing attitude has been...we will inflate our problem away. It is undeniable if we look at a DOW of 8,200 in 2009 to a high of over 26,000 in 2018. No one could possible argue that there has been value creation to that magnitude. It is essentially the Fed printing press at work. A government entity creating money by purchasing its own debt and essentially providing free paper to the banking system. I might add, effectively robbing every holder of paper assets in the process.

Common sense tells us this portends Armageddon. A government creating deficits as far as the eye can see... so far beyond its ability to possibly service the debt. At some point, no one can say for sure, the dollar becomes virtually worthless.
as i have always generously offered, everyone please send me your worthless dollars. i will take care of disposing of them for you at no additional charge. ;)
 

RollTide_HTTR

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I haven't seen mention of him in this thread but I listened to (part) of an episode of Freakonomics on NPR yesterday and it was all about Andrew Yang, who is apparently running for President as a Democrat.

I had never heard of him and seriously doubt I'll vote for him but he at least sounded vaguely interesting even if unrealistic in some ways. The main platform of his campaign is installing a $1,000/month UBI.
 
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Bodhisattva

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I haven't seen mention of him in this thread but I listened to (part) of an episode of Freakonomics on NPR yesterday and it was all about Andrew Yang, who is apparently running for President as a Democrat.

I had never heard of him and seriously doubt I'll vote for him but he at least sounded vaguely interesting if not unrealistic in some ways. The platform of his campaign is installing a $1,000/month UBI.
My default position is to oppose welfare/subsidies (especially at the federal level) for able-bodied adults for many reasons. But, since the political reality is that these programs will exist, I'm curious to learn more about UBI. Perhaps it is a less bad alternative to what we have now.
 

seebell

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Interesting discussion folks. Thanks. I never thought much about corporatism vs. capitalism. I do think the central government needs to play an active role in the regulation of either.
 

rgw

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My default position is to oppose welfare/subsidies (especially at the federal level) for able-bodied adults for many reasons. But, since the political reality is that these programs will exist, I'm curious to learn more about UBI. Perhaps it is a less bad alternative to what we have now.
I'm a leftist, so this may surprise some but I have reservations about UBI. I think wellness is both parts of surety in your survival and fulfillment from doing things that have merit/worth. I think the UBI idea works well enough for keeping the consumption machine churning but doesn't really take into account that I imagine depression, self-harm, and violence will likely rise due to complacency and lack of life direction.
 

rgw

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I mean look at our opioid crisis. I don't think it happens quite to the degree it has without the dismantling of manufacturing jobs across this country leading to unemployed workers discovering "back injuries" then getting prescribed painkillers that they probably don't need so they sell them for extra money.
 

GrayTide

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Over the years the greatest concern I have seen from the financial industry has been the Federal Reserve's, from Greenspan forward, unwillingness to allow a workout of excess capacity in banking or commerce in our system. Consequently we have gone from one bubble, technology to the next, housing. The prevailing attitude has been...we will inflate our problem away. It is undeniable if we look at a DOW of 8,200 in 2009 to a high of over 26,000 in 2018. No one could possible argue that there has been value creation to that magnitude. It is essentially the Fed printing press at work. A government entity creating money by purchasing its own debt and essentially providing free paper to the banking system. I might add, effectively robbing every holder of paper assets in the process.

Common sense tells us this portends Armageddon. A government creating deficits as far as the eye can see... so far beyond its ability to possibly service the debt. At some point, no one can say for sure, the dollar becomes virtually worthless.
The 2008 financial crisis led to the failure of a large number of banks in the United States. The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) closed 465 failed banks from 2008 to 2012. In contrast, in the five years prior to 2008, only 10 banks failed.
 

twofbyc

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I'm a leftist, so this may surprise some but I have reservations about UBI. I think wellness is both parts of surety in your survival and fulfillment from doing things that have merit/worth. I think the UBI idea works well enough for keeping the consumption machine churning but doesn't really take into account that I imagine depression, self-harm, and violence will likely rise due to complacency and lack of life direction.
Some form of this will be a necessity in the years to come, when automation replaces mundane jobs that employ millions of Americans.
From truck driving to Macdonald’s, landscaping to laundries, many people will be out of work with no prospects for future employment. What then? Think they can all be brain surgeons? (Even that may be fully automated sooner than you think). And I dare a politician to say they can “learn to code”. I learned late in life (COBOL was my first), and I know a dozen truckers and maybe one MIGHT be able to learn how at a rudimentary level.
At some point, the government will be obligated to provide for its citizens when there are simply not enough jobs available. So although UBI isn’t necessary just yet IMO, it will be one day in the not-too-distant future.


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NationalTitles18

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Some form of this will be a necessity in the years to come, when automation replaces mundane jobs that employ millions of Americans.
From truck driving to Macdonald’s, landscaping to laundries, many people will be out of work with no prospects for future employment. What then? Think they can all be brain surgeons? (Even that may be fully automated sooner than you think). And I dare a politician to say they can “learn to code”. I learned late in life (COBOL was my first), and I know a dozen truckers and maybe one MIGHT be able to learn how at a rudimentary level.
At some point, the government will be obligated to provide for its citizens when there are simply not enough jobs available. So although UBI isn’t necessary just yet IMO, it will be one day in the not-too-distant future.


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You are most likely correct to one degree or another that this will happen sooner or later. I read last night about a Chinese AI that was able to diagnose childhood illnesses as well as a PA (physician's assistant). China has an advantage in this area due to data availability/sharing while privacy and the fractured data systems in the US hamper development. For at least a while after development I can see humans being needed to assure proper operations and being able to get out of unusual situations (and public reassurance/jobs PR). Some job areas will take longer than others, but it may very well happen in my lifetime. We will likely see employment shift toward technical skills even further and oversight, but when machines begin to design and perhaps conceptualize better than humans then what? Skynet, here we come!
 

TIDE-HSV

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The 2008 financial crisis led to the failure of a large number of banks in the United States. The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) closed 465 failed banks from 2008 to 2012. In contrast, in the five years prior to 2008, only 10 banks failed.
This shouldn't be a surprise, since the weaker banks got shaken out. However, the "con" debater I mentioned pointed out the constant pressure by the banking industry to go back to the pre-2008 rules, including drastically reducing reserve requirements and eliminating the now-mandatory "stress tests." Life was just a lot more profitable for them back then...
 

TIDE-HSV

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You are most likely correct to one degree or another that this will happen sooner or later. I read last night about a Chinese AI that was able to diagnose childhood illnesses as well as a PA (physician's assistant). China has an advantage in this area due to data availability/sharing while privacy and the fractured data systems in the US hamper development. For at least a while after development I can see humans being needed to assure proper operations and being able to get out of unusual situations (and public reassurance/jobs PR). Some job areas will take longer than others, but it may very well happen in my lifetime. We will likely see employment shift toward technical skills even further and oversight, but when machines begin to design and perhaps conceptualize better than humans then what? Skynet, here we come!
And - we're stuck with a president who wants to return us to the 1950s, with happy miners in blackface and every little town full of puffing smoke stacks...
 

rgw

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Some form of this will be a necessity in the years to come, when automation replaces mundane jobs that employ millions of Americans.
From truck driving to Macdonald’s, landscaping to laundries, many people will be out of work with no prospects for future employment. What then? Think they can all be brain surgeons? (Even that may be fully automated sooner than you think). And I dare a politician to say they can “learn to code”. I learned late in life (COBOL was my first), and I know a dozen truckers and maybe one MIGHT be able to learn how at a rudimentary level.
At some point, the government will be obligated to provide for its citizens when there are simply not enough jobs available. So although UBI isn’t necessary just yet IMO, it will be one day in the not-too-distant future.


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You are accurate but that is a bit over the horizon. Much further than, say, an ecological catastrophe due to carbon emissions and runaway consumption. UBI has some blindspots though. It isn't a cure all because we still don't know what to do with a society where most have no economic utility.
 

UAH

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The 2008 financial crisis led to the failure of a large number of banks in the United States. The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) closed 465 failed banks from 2008 to 2012. In contrast, in the five years prior to 2008, only 10 banks failed.
The point that I was making is that the Fed pumping money into the system to stave off the effects of the tech bust led directly to the housing bubble with the corresponding development of derivative instruments of mass destruction that led to the failure of the banking system. Instead of allowing a work out following the housing crisis the Fed has stepped in and re-inflated the credit market and the equity markets with its easy money policy. A good question to measure that today would be to ask oneself how many auto loans would be in default and how much credit card debt would be in default in an economic downturn. We just saw a glimpse of that with the government shutdown.

In regard to your comment on bank closings I believe Sheila Bair, who headed the FDIC at the time was definitely the right person at the right time to conduct a complete restructuring of the regional banking system. The banks that had inadequate balance sheets predominately due to their real estate loan portfolio were restructured and combined with larger banks that had higher deposit to loan ratios than the failed banks. Very few branches of any bank actually closed and most branch managers received new business cards and new signs appeared on the branches. In these restructurings tax payers through the FDIC assumed responsibility for the assets on the books of the failed banks after a five year period of collections and loan restructuring by the newly organized banks. The restructured banks were only required to demonstrate good faith in their restructuring efforts.

To Tide-HSV's point the physical banking structure is still there seeking a means to get back to the days of generating big profits and large bonuses that were generated during the housing bubble.
 
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twofbyc

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You are accurate but that is a bit over the horizon. Much further than, say, an ecological catastrophe due to carbon emissions and runaway consumption. UBI has some blindspots though. It isn't a cure all because we still don't know what to do with a society where most have no economic utility.
I don’t think it’s that far. When did the smart phone first come out?
Technology is advancing at breakneck speed ( for several reasons), and I think within 10-15 years it will be upon us; about the same time that Mother Earth starts extracting revenge, the way I see it.
If they begin to occur simultaneously and we aren’t prepared, things will get ugly quick.


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