Abortion

[Huckleberry]

The father has absolutely no input in this decision. If he wants to keep the baby and she doesn’t, the baby is toast. If he wants to abort the baby and she doesn’t, he’s on the hook for support. She has no body autonomy though.

Your blue font is a bit misplaced. In the situation you describe, the mother has bodily autonomy. No one would claim otherwise. You're the one advocating taking that right away.

 

[NationalTitles18]

First off, unfortunately, the father has minimal in this discussion. While you may believe you can swap from male to female at will, the harsh reality is that females carry the children and bear the brunt of the ramifications of these decisions. The father has absolutely no input in this decision. If he wants to keep the baby and she doesn’t, the baby is toast. If he wants to abort the baby and she doesn’t, he’s on the hook for support. She has no body autonomy though.

Not having unprotected sex isn’t some monumental achievement. This isn’t some abstinence/abortion debate. There are so many precautions that can be taken to prevent pregnancy. All are better than the abortion alternative for everyone involved.

Obviously abortions are far more convenient than having and raising a child. Nice try on clouding the water.

The question you have to ask yourself is why would someone who doesn’t want children take the risk of having children? Pregnancy isn’t a surprise, it’s known what causes it.

Joe didn't present a gotcha. He is simply saying the male has a responsibility to prevent pregnancy as well.

But even when birth control is used perfectly, it is not perfect. Depending on the method(s) used, the failure rate will vary, but there is always a chance of failure.

But if preventing unwanted pregnancies is an agreed upon goal as most of us believe it should be, why is it that multiple large conservative groups are pushing an end to birth control?

And if we can agree that saving the life and health of the mother in all cases is also a mutual goal then why are conservatives creating laws that place mothers at risk? Why do they want to outlaw medication abortion that is very effective in the roughly 2% of pregnancies that are ectopic and 100% nonviable? Why make a woman wait until she is septic and/or emergently near death before she can receive a medical abortion?

 

[jthomas666]

Until society accepts that unprotected sex creates life, and a whole bunch of responsibility with it, things won’t change.

So you would support sex education in schools?

 

[Jon]

First off, unfortunately, the father has minimal in this discussion. While you may believe you can swap from male to female at will, the harsh reality is that females carry the children and bear the brunt of the ramifications of these decisions. The father has absolutely no input in this decision. If he wants to keep the baby and she doesn’t, the baby is toast. If he wants to abort the baby and she doesn’t, he’s on the hook for support. She has no body autonomy though.

Not having unprotected sex isn’t some monumental achievement. This isn’t some abstinence/abortion debate. There are so many precautions that can be taken to prevent pregnancy. All are better than the abortion alternative for everyone involved.

Obviously abortions are far more convenient than having and raising a child. Nice try on clouding the water

The question you have to ask yourself is why would someone who doesn’t want children take the risk of having children? Pregnancy isn’t a surprise, it’s known what causes it.

making my argument for me

you want to control women. In your case their sex lives

I could state all the obvious things like broken condoms or other failed contraception or of course the biggie, rape

but I don't think it matters

you just want sex, for women, to always have consequences while hand waving any male responsibility

 

[NationalTitles18]

Yea, federal mandates are compromises.

So we can compromise a woman's right to control her health but not anyone's right to own a mechanical device like a gun that places others' health in danger when improperly handled? I mean, I don't want to shift the debate at all, but a woman's right to control her own well being is at least just as much a right as owning a gun, perhaps even more sacred.

 

[Jon]

Joe didn't present a gotcha. He is simply saying the male has a responsibility to prevent pregnancy as well.

But even when birth control is used perfectly, it is not perfect. Depending on the method(s) used, the failure rate will vary, but there is always a chance of failure.

But if preventing unwanted pregnancies is an agreed upon goal as most of us believe it should be, why is it that multiple large conservative groups are pushing an end to birth control?

And if we can agree that saving the life and health of the mother in all cases is also a mutual goal then why are conservatives creating laws that place mothers at risk? Why do they want to outlaw medication abortion that is very effective in the roughly 2% of pregnancies that are ectopic and 100% nonviable? Why make a woman wait until she is septic and/or emergently near death before she can receive a medical abortion?

Call on me I can answer the why

 

[Huckleberry]

It’s absolutely relevant in the discussion. How many abortions would be avoided if half the women who had them decided to hold off on sex until precautions could be taken? Hundreds, if not thousands of lives would be impacted in a positive way, if you believe the women that say abortions take a huge toll on a person. (Of course it does).

What’s so wrong with having standards?

There's no question that many abortions could be avoided if men and women abstained from unprotected sex. That's not the point. Denying bodily autonomy is.

There are a multitude of personal decisions made every day that negatively impact both personal lives and society. How many of them are you in favor of regulating?

Standards? The standard is that women have the right to control their own bodies.

 

[NationalTitles18]

Is this what conservative members call "ganging up" on them and "bullying" them?

Like Joe, I once had a very different view on abortion. It's actually my classical liberal/libertarian leaning side that informs me that a woman should be trusted with her doctor and whomever else she decides to involve to make that decision more than I should trust the government to make this decision for her without involving her or the doctor in the process. This is also fundamentally a conservative position by default as well, as part of the small government mantra.

 

[crimsonaudio]

I can clearly understand both sides of the argument. I agree the woman should have bodily autonomy, but I also understand why the fetus is considered a human life. Both sides of the argument have merit, but have detractions.

It's a subject I'm not sure we'll ever all agree on.

 

[JDCrimson]

I think the issue of pro or against turns on another aspect as well. This is always debated from the third person point of view. Amd third persons really offer nothing in first person issues.

There will always be rape, incest, medical disabilities contributing to unwanted pregnancies. This are the easy scenarios to resolve and compromise on the abortion issue, imo.

But here is the reality there will always be unprotected and illicit sex among teenagers, among adulterous people, etc. There will be pro-life people who have affairs or their children have affairs who will in that first person moment want the personal autonomy to abort the pregnancy either through Plan B options or medically. Not just the women but the men too. People who are not comitted to raising and supporting this child.

So why bring this child into being? At some point this child will learn they are unwanted, a mistake, or a unpleasant surprise, however you want to label it. Who and how are going to emotionally support that child through that pivotal event? Society currently sees no need to do so. The child loses personal autonomy too because they must deal with circumstances of their birth for the rest of their life. So who is it really helping taking away abortion save for the pious third person?

The same argument can be said for capital punishment. Easy to be against it as a third person until someone heinously kills your significant other(s)...

 

[NationalTitles18]

abort the pregnancy either through Plan B

For clarification:
Plan B is not abortion. No implantation=no pregnancy=no abortion.

 

[Maudiemae]

It’s absolutely relevant in the discussion. How many abortions would be avoided if half the women who had them decided to hold off on sex until precautions could be taken? Hundreds, if not thousands of lives would be impacted in a positive way, if you believe the women that say abortions take a huge toll on a person. (Of course it does).

What’s so wrong with having standards?

As a woman who has known many girls, very young ones and somewhat older ones, as well as women, who were the victims of rape and incest, I will begin screaming at you now. Since you apparently are one of those males who has absolutely no earthly idea how much those terrible things happen to females and are not, yourself, a female-----GET BACK!!!!!!!!! Since you are a male, you need to do that anyway. Since you don't know what carrying a child to term or giving birth is like from having the actual experience personally, you also need to do that. Have you ever known a divorced woman who found herself pregnant in the process? A divorced woman who was married to an abusive man and finally freed herself? You have no earthly business deciding these things for the bodies, hearts or minds of people you don't know and, for the most part, know nothing about. If you haven't guessed, I was a victim. Don't you DARE demand that woman who was victimized and became pregnant to carry that baby to term unless it is her choice. You shouldn't demand it of any woman or girl at all. Are you serious?! How about demanding males keep their zippers up?! How about birth control on the male's part, too?! Yes, this really is an attack. If you understood more about this, you'd know why I am attacking!

 

[AWRTR]

I think an interesting question was asked earlier, but no one ever answered it. If a woman has the bodily autonomy to either carry the child to term or abort the child then what autonomy does the man have? If he doesn't want the child should he be forced to provide and care for the child? If the answer is yes then make that make logical sense for me. Why does one side of the coin get to make decisions and have autonomy and one doesn't? As a stand-up comedian said one time, "My money my choice. If you can kill the kid then I should at least be able to abandon him."

 

[JDCrimson]

This crass statement is precisely why it should be a personal decision rather than legislated by outsiders.

But, to answer your question, we as men probably should bear the greater responsibility because there is no child without our seed. And until men are ready to take on the greater responsibility in this issue we probably ought to bow out of any determination of what happens thereafter.

I think an interesting question was asked earlier, but no one ever answered it. If a woman has the bodily autonomy to either carry the child to term or abort the child then what autonomy does the man have? If he doesn't want the child should he be forced to provide and care for the child? If the answer is yes then make that make logical sense for me. Why does one side of the coin get to make decisions and have autonomy and one doesn't? As a stand-up comedian said one time, "My money my choice. If you can kill the kid then I should at least be able to abandon him."

 

[Go Bama]

First off, unfortunately, the father has minimal in this discussion. While you may believe you can swap from male to female at will, the harsh reality is that females carry the children and bear the brunt of the ramifications of these decisions. The father has absolutely no input in this decision. If he wants to keep the baby and she doesn’t, the baby is toast. If he wants to abort the baby and she doesn’t, he’s on the hook for support. She has no body autonomy though.

Not having unprotected sex isn’t some monumental achievement. This isn’t some abstinence/abortion debate. There are so many precautions that can be taken to prevent pregnancy. All are better than the abortion alternative for everyone involved.

Obviously abortions are far more convenient than having and raising a child. Nice try on clouding the water.

The question you have to ask yourself is why would someone who doesn’t want children take the risk of having children? Pregnancy isn’t a surprise, it’s known what causes it.

Part of the problem here is people using the word “baby” when in fact a baby has been born. It is a fetus from 10 weeks until birth.

The mother absolutely should get to make all the decisions without the father’s input because she has to bear the brunt of the pregnancy.

You keep harping about women not getting pregnant. It’s irrelevant to the discussion. Everyone already knows a mistake has been made and everyone knows how it happened. The question is what to do about the unwanted pregnancy.

But I’ll go ahead and answer silly question “why would someone who doesn’t want children take the risk of having children?” It’s because the couple is young and stupid and in the heat of the moment, they couldn’t help themselves. It happens and it is always going to happen. Why do I overeat sometimes? Why don’t I exercise everyday? Why do some people smoke, drink to excess, or do drugs. Literally every person I know has made some poor decisions.

As a woman who has known many girls, very young ones and somewhat older ones, as well as women, who were the victims of rape and incest, I will begin screaming at you now. Since you apparently are one of those males who has absolutely no earthly idea how much those terrible things happen to females and are not, yourself, a female-----GET BACK!!!!!!!!! Since you are a male, you need to do that anyway. Since you don't know what carrying a child to term or giving birth is like from having the actual experience personally, you also need to do that. Have you ever known a divorced woman who found herself pregnant in the process? A divorced woman who was married to an abusive man and finally freed herself? You have no earthly business deciding these things for the bodies, hearts or minds of people you don't know and, for the most part, know nothing about. If you haven't guessed, I was a victim. Don't you DARE demand that woman who was victimized and became pregnant to carry that baby to term unless it is her choice. You shouldn't demand it of any woman or girl at all. Are you serious?! How about demanding males keep their zippers up?! How about birth control on the male's part, too?! Yes, this really is an attack. If you understood more about this, you'd know why I am attacking!

I didn’t respond to him earlier in hope that you would see this thread. Your words carry so much more meaning than mine. Thank you for this amazing post.

 

[Maudiemae]

Part of the problem here is people using the word “baby” when in fact a baby has been born. It is a fetus from 10 weeks until birth.

The mother absolutely should get to make all the decisions without the father’s input because she has to bear the brunt of the pregnancy.

You keep harping about women not getting pregnant. It’s irrelevant to the discussion. Everyone already knows a mistake has been made and everyone knows how it happened. The question is what to do about the unwanted pregnancy.

But I’ll go ahead and answer silly question “why would someone who doesn’t want children take the risk of having children?” It’s because the couple is young and stupid and in the heat of the moment, they couldn’t help themselves. It happens and it is always going to happen. Why do I overeat sometimes? Why don’t I exercise everyday? Why do some people smoke, drink to excess, or do drugs. Literally every person I know has made some poor decisions.

I didn’t respond to him earlier in hope that you would see this thread. Your words carry so much more meaning than mine. Thank you for this amazing post.

I appreciate this so much! I have steered clear of this thread for a while since it is such a sensitive topic for me. A very painful one. Not just for me but for so many. And we all know many mothers! Pregnancy is a journey in which every emotion possible is experienced. There's no way to describe it. My son and daughter were very much wanted and are precious to me. Both pregnancies and births were relatively easy...compared to those my daughter experienced which were very rough. Other people have an even harder time. "Inconvenient" as someone here called it, is laughably outrageous and makes me wish he had to go through it. It was still amazing in spite of that. But if you are too young or pregnant from some nightmare of trauma or even if the reasons for not having a child are due to things none of us can know---going through a pregnancy to term is not a blip in life and will probably turn that life upside down whether or not the baby is kept. None of us knows someone else's circumstances but it's just as silly to think that a girl or woman could go through an entire pregnancy, put the child up for adoption and then just meld seamlessly back into life as it is to think that always happens after having had an abortion. Thank you for understanding.

 

[AWRTR]

In all seriousness we will never find middle ground on this. The reason is the difference in when the sides believe life begins. Some say at birth, some at viability, and some at conception. I don’t think there is a desire to control someone’s bodily autonomy as many on here present it. There are people that genuinely believe life begins at conception. There desire is to protect that life. Many will disagree with that desire and see the matter in a different way. Mostly one of the other two options. The bottom line is the different ideas about when a person is a person. That’s what divides us all on this issue. If it’s just a clump of cells then who cares, but if it’s a life then we all should care. That difference is the root of it all.

 

[AWRTR]

This crass statement is precisely why it should be a personal decision rather than legislated by outsiders.

But, to answer your question, we as men probably should bear the greater responsibility because there is no child without our seed. And until men are ready to take on the greater responsibility in this issue we probably ought to bow out of any determination of what happens thereafter.

There is no child without an egg either. You didn’t give a real answer to the question. Why can one parent determine the outcome completely alone and one can be taken to court to participate even if they don’t want to? Where is their autonomy. Why can the other parent force them along with the government to participate in raising a child they don’t want when a woman can terminate the preganancy with no input from the father? Make that make logical sense from an equality point of view?

 

[Jon]

In all seriousness we will never find middle ground on this. The reason is the difference in when the sides believe life begins. Some say at birth, some at viability, and some at conception. I don’t think there is a desire to control someone’s bodily autonomy as many on here present it. There are people that genuinely believe life begins at conception. There desire is to protect that life. Many will disagree with that desire and see the matter in a different way. Mostly one of the other two options. The bottom line is the different ideas about when a person is a person. That’s what divides us all on this issue. If it’s just a clump of cells then who cares, but if it’s a life then we all should care. That difference is the root of it all.

the problem here of course is that the end results of acquiescing to your desires above is that you will have to control women to do it. I am sincere in the belief that most who hold these views don't intend to control women, but make no mistake this is doing it.

 

[AWRTR]

the problem here of course is that the end results of acquiescing to your desires above is that you will have to control women to do it. I am sincere in the belief that most who hold these views don't intend to control women, but make no mistake this is doing it.

I understand your point of view completely. We limit the options and decisions of people all the time to protect others. I know this is different in some ways, but that's how pro-life people view it right or wrong.