Another HS shooting - Santa Fe, TX (South of Houston)

[92tide]

Tell me how that passes constitutional muster.

I can see it if you have reason to believe it may happen. I can't see it just because you own a weapon and a family members takes it to commit horrible crimes. That would be akin to leaving your car keys in a drawer and your son uses the car as a weapon. Would a reasonable person believe your son might do this? Then maybe you have some culpability. Would a reasonable person not think your son would do this beforehand? Then you are likely a victim as well.

i see it as an issue of gun owner responsibility. it's not really that big of a challenge to keep firearms secure, and imho it's not an unreasonable expectation that gun owners keep their firearms secure.

 

[92tide]

OK...how do we do that?

Are we tracking our success against school bullying? Social media bullying?

Is it something measurable?

there has been tons of work done on bullying in the past few decades with lots of readily available info on various approaches to the problems and the scope of the problems

 

[NationalTitles18]

i see it as an issue of gun owner responsibility. it's not really that big of a challenge to keep firearms secure, and imho it's not an unreasonable expectation that gun owners keep their firearms secure.

Secure, yes. But from whom? The outside world? As best you can. From your own family? That depends on whom you can or cannot trust.

 

[AlexanderFan]

I think a lot of the nonchalance with bullying now is the failure of the parents to comprehend the potential for exactly how enormous it can be. We lived in a time where it was school and potentially neighborhood bullies. With that shiny new cell phone and some clever hashtags and suddenly Junior is getting laughed at by hundreds of people he doesn't even know. All day, every day, until it dies down hopefully. I think that is an important aspect that needs to be addressed.


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[Bazza]

there has been tons of work done on bullying in the past few decades with lots of readily available info on various approaches to the problems and the scope of the problems

Thanks. Are we doing better now than we were last year or the year before, do you know? Just curious.

 

[92tide]

Secure, yes. But from whom? The outside world? As best you can. From your own family? That depends on whom you can or cannot trust.

minor children under their guardianship/in the household is what i was thinking.

 

[Bazza]

Secure, yes. But from whom? The outside world? As best you can. From your own family? That depends on whom you can or cannot trust.

My concept of being secure is that no one can get to them except the adults in the household, as a start.

Now, that said, I can see exceptions such as families that are very responsible where children are brought up properly.

Especially those in areas where perhaps hunting has been a family tradition. They are brought up to respect guns and how their are handled responsibly.

 

[92tide]

I think a lot of the nonchalance with bullying now is the failure of the parents to comprehend the potential for exactly how enormous it can be. We lived in a time where it was school and potentially neighborhood bullies. With that shiny new cell phone and some clever hashtags and suddenly Junior is getting laughed at by hundreds of people he doesn't even know. All day, every day, until it dies down hopefully. I think that is an important aspect that needs to be addressed.


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nonchalance with bullying? that has been a huge focus in schools for many years.

 

[chanson78]

Secure, yes. But from whom? The outside world? As best you can. From your own family? That depends on whom you can or cannot trust.

Federal law prohibits possession of handguns for those under 18. These recent shootings were done with long guns, for which there is no minimum age. Technically even possession of a pistol by someone under 18 might already incur some measure of liability. I am not a lawyer, so no idea really.

If my wife and I share a safe code, that’s a choice. Does my child need to know the code? No. I COULD make the choice to give him the combination, given a good enough reason, or enough trust build up. However, if I shared responsibility for my child’s actions or the actions of their friends, should they get together and decide to do something stupid, it would definitely change the calculus used to determine whether my child needed the combination for the safe. It would also make me think more about watching for changes in behavior and might prompt me to change the combination to the safe had I seen things that gave me pause.

We talk about all of these teachers and paid professionals that are paid to teach values etc, but it’s their parents that SHOULD know their child best. Maybe something like this will move the needle on the issue. I don’t think it would run afoul of 2A arguments except for those who believe bear arms means home protection.

I understand the car keys argument, and to be frank I have no idea how that wouldn’t apply here. However I’d say that would be a wonderful problem to have to solve if the issue was no longer about 18 year old kids mowing down kids with guns, and instead started having to post threads with titles similar to “WHEN WILL TOYOTA DO SOMETHING TO PREVENT ALL OF THESE MASS MINIVAN ACCIDENTS.” In my line of work there is a saying. Perfect is the enemy of good. This is the first idea that I’ve seen people from both sides thinking about it without wanting to burn down the opponents house and kill their dog. Maybe we should talk about it some more instead of borrowing trouble from far down the slippery slope. The kid doing something stupid with a car is future chanson78s problem.

 

[Bamaro]

Define negligence. You lock your guns in a safe, the members of the family know the combination, including your 18 year old son. He snaps and empties the safe and kills people. Are you negligent?

Being weird or an introvert doesn't automatically qualify you as a danger, does it?

You can call it negligence or not but you ARE responsible for what he does with your unsecured (from him) gun.

 

[NationalTitles18]

nonchalance with bullying? that has been a huge focus in schools for many years.

And yet despite this staff still ignore or encourage it in some cases.

 

[NationalTitles18]

Federal law prohibits possession of handguns for those under 18. These recent shootings were done with long guns, for which there is no minimum age. Technically even possession of a pistol by someone under 18 might already incur some measure of liability. I am not a lawyer, so no idea really.

If my wife and I share a safe code, that’s a choice. Does my child need to know the code? No. I COULD make the choice to give him the combination, given a good enough reason, or enough trust build up. However, if I shared responsibility for my child’s actions or the actions of their friends, should they get together and decide to do something stupid, it would definitely change the calculus used to determine whether my child needed the combination for the safe. It would also make me think more about watching for changes in behavior and might prompt me to change the combination to the safe had I seen things that gave me pause.

We talk about all of these teachers and paid professionals that are paid to teach values etc, but it’s their parents that SHOULD know their child best. Maybe something like this will move the needle on the issue. I don’t think it would run afoul of 2A arguments except for those who believe bear arms means home protection.

I understand the car keys argument, and to be frank I have no idea how that wouldn’t apply here. However I’d say that would be a wonderful problem to have to solve if the issue was no longer about 18 year old kids mowing down kids with guns, and instead started having to post threads with titles similar to “WHEN WILL TOYOTA DO SOMETHING TO PREVENT ALL OF THESE MASS MINIVAN ACCIDENTS.” In my line of work there is a saying. Perfect is the enemy of good. This is the first idea that I’ve seen people from both sides thinking about it without wanting to burn down the opponents house and kill their dog. Maybe we should talk about it some more instead of borrowing trouble from far down the slippery slope. The kid doing something stupid with a car is future chanson78s problem.

I didn't take time to go back and look but I thought I was referring to an 18yo having access. Whatever the case, the law should be followed and I thought that was just understood. So age restrictions should be followed barring extenuating circumstances.

The car keys argument is something that happens every single day thousands upon thousands of times a day. MY argument was less slippery slope and more a question of generally what constitutes negligence and how that is applied evenly and fairly. Of course cars are different than guns but both can be dangerous weapons or effective tools.

And I would not say that everyone is in one accord on this issue, if we are talking keeping guns in a safe at all times when not "in use". There are valid reasons why it would be too burdensome for some and generally unhelpful in a situation where the gun was needed the most. The public is no where near an agreement on this issue. That's why I would lean toward a law that it must be "secure" (deliberately vague) and that you must not be negligent (we pretty much have this, though it may not be "tough enough"). A prescriptive solution (must be kept in safe with ammo stored in separate safe) is too draconian and inflexible.

 

[NationalTitles18]

Define negligence. You lock your guns in a safe, the members of the family know the combination, including your 18 year old son. He snaps and empties the safe and kills people. Are you negligent?

Being weird or an introvert doesn't automatically qualify you as a danger, does it?


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For the record, this was the post I was responding to earlier.

 

[gtowntide]

Good news! The convicted felon and newly elected president of the NRA,Oliver North, knows what is causing the school shootings. It's the attention deficit disorder drug Ritalin. It seems like instead of some type of gun control, we just need to control Ritalin.What a brilliant man! Bring back bump stocks!

 

[TIDE-HSV]

I didn't take time to go back and look but I thought I was referring to an 18yo having access. Whatever the case, the law should be followed and I thought that was just understood. So age restrictions should be followed barring extenuating circumstances.

The car keys argument is something that happens every single day thousands upon thousands of times a day. MY argument was less slippery slope and more a question of generally what constitutes negligence and how that is applied evenly and fairly. Of course cars are different than guns but both can be dangerous weapons or effective tools.

And I would not say that everyone is in one accord on this issue, if we are talking keeping guns in a safe at all times when not "in use". There are valid reasons why it would be too burdensome for some and generally unhelpful in a situation where the gun was needed the most. The public is no where near an agreement on this issue. That's why I would lean toward a law that it must be "secure" (deliberately vague) and that you must not be negligent (we pretty much have this, though it may not be "tough enough"). A prescriptive solution (must be kept in safe with ammo stored in separate safe) is too draconian and inflexible.

Each house is different. We are, for example, empty nesters. We just don't have small children, even teenagers, in the house on any regular basis. When I had small children in the house, I was much more careful. A vague statute would lead to litigation but it might still be the best solution...

 

[Bazza]

JJ Watt offers to pay funerals of Santa Fe High School shooting victims

Houston Texans defensive end J.J. Watt has offered to pay funeral expenses for the 10 victims killed in the Sante Fe High School shooting in Texas, CBS affiliate KHOU-TV reports. The family of one victim, Shana Fisher, said they accepted his offer.

Watt is known for his humanitarian efforts in the aftermath of Hurricane Harvey. He helped raise more than $37 million and handed out supplies to people in Houston in need of resources. He personally donated $100,000.

Well done, JJ......

 

[Bazza]

Sabika Sheikh

Pakistan Association of Greater Houston/Facebook



The Pakistani Embassy in Washington, D.C., confirmed that exchange student Sabika Sheikh was killed in the shooting. Sabika was an exchange student with YES, which is funded by the U.S. State Department. It provides scholarships for secondary school students from countries with significant Muslim populations to spend one academic year in the U.S.

U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo sent his "deepest condolences" to her friends and family in a statement Saturday.
"Sabika's death and that of the other victims is heartbreaking and will be mourned deeply both here in the United States, and in Pakistan," Pompeo said.
Sabika's 9-year-old sister told the Los Angeles Times that they spoke on the phone on Friday, and Sabika "told me that in 20 days we will be together."
Sabika's father said the teen was planning to return to Karachi on June 9. "She was a great soul," he told the Times.
Her uncle said he didn't blame the "murder of my girl on American society but on that terrorism mindset that is there in all societies ... I do ask the American government to make sure weapons will not be easily available in your country to anybody. Please make sure this doesn't happen again. It really hurts."

 

[AlexanderFan]

nonchalance with bullying? that has been a huge focus in schools for many years.

I said parents, not schools. As adults some of us are still in the mindset that bullying is a semi harmless activity that occurs every now and again instead of the potentially endless hell that doesn't even stop when the child gets home because of technology.


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[AUDub]

Sabika Sheikh

Pakistan Association of Greater Houston/Facebook



The Pakistani Embassy in Washington, D.C., confirmed that exchange student Sabika Sheikh was killed in the shooting. Sabika was an exchange student with YES, which is funded by the U.S. State Department. It provides scholarships for secondary school students from countries with significant Muslim populations to spend one academic year in the U.S.

U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo sent his "deepest condolences" to her friends and family in a statement Saturday.
"Sabika's death and that of the other victims is heartbreaking and will be mourned deeply both here in the United States, and in Pakistan," Pompeo said.
Sabika's 9-year-old sister told the Los Angeles Times that they spoke on the phone on Friday, and Sabika "told me that in 20 days we will be together."
Sabika's father said the teen was planning to return to Karachi on June 9. "She was a great soul," he told the Times.
Her uncle said he didn't blame the "murder of my girl on American society but on that terrorism mindset that is there in all societies ... I do ask the American government to make sure weapons will not be easily available in your country to anybody. Please make sure this doesn't happen again. It really hurts."

Imagine sending your child to America only for her to be gunned down in a school shooting.

 

[Displaced Bama Fan]

Sabika Sheikh

Pakistan Association of Greater Houston/Facebook



The Pakistani Embassy in Washington, D.C., confirmed that exchange student Sabika Sheikh was killed in the shooting. Sabika was an exchange student with YES, which is funded by the U.S. State Department. It provides scholarships for secondary school students from countries with significant Muslim populations to spend one academic year in the U.S.

U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo sent his "deepest condolences" to her friends and family in a statement Saturday.
"Sabika's death and that of the other victims is heartbreaking and will be mourned deeply both here in the United States, and in Pakistan," Pompeo said.
Sabika's 9-year-old sister told the Los Angeles Times that they spoke on the phone on Friday, and Sabika "told me that in 20 days we will be together."
Sabika's father said the teen was planning to return to Karachi on June 9. "She was a great soul," he told the Times.
Her uncle said he didn't blame the "murder of my girl on American society but on that terrorism mindset that is there in all societies ... I do ask the American government to make sure weapons will not be easily available in your country to anybody. Please make sure this doesn't happen again. It really hurts."

Yep that sucks. I saw that too. I'm still waiting to see about the mother that was interviewed prior to knowing her daughter was one of the victims...I don't know if she was killed or just injured.