Bad cop; good cop stories; Part II...

[AUDub]

We'll have to agree to disagree, but one of the 5 rules of gun safety is to be sure of your target and what is beyond. The cop did not realize he was shooting a kid. He was not sure of his target. Out of fear for his own life, he pulled the trigger on a 13 year old kid.

Sophistry. You are stretching that rule past its breaking point.

FWIW, it takes a fastball 0.4 seconds to reach home plate.

FWIW, that is about equivalent to the literal blink of an eye.

 

[AUDub]

This bothers me a lot. My best friend is a cop. We disagree on a lot regarding policing in America.

But there's no room for nuance or facts in the fervor many of the DEFUND THE POLICE, ACAB folks.

An example, officers in his (North) responded to a domestic in Smithfield last week. People in town have been holding vigils for the guy. Perpetrator got out of his car, gun in hand, and was subsequently shot. Should see some of the stuff that officer is getting on FB. People calling him a pig bastard that should be hung, people say they're going to rape his kids and his wife, stuff like that.

The current environment isn't good. We have to wait for the facts rather than fly off the handle immediately. Police aren't perfect but they don't have a 100% error rate.

 

[B1GTide]

The current environment isn't good. We have to wait for the facts rather than fly off the handle immediately. Police aren't perfect but they don't have a 100% error rate.

You are right, but the solution has to start with the police. They are, as a group, the ones who have crossed a line and Americans are just fed up. There is no way that I would consider being a police officer in this environment.

 

[Crimson1967]

It doesn’t help that my Facebook feed is flooded with memes saying “we always support the cops” and stuff like that. Not all cops are knights in blue.

 

[AUDub]

You are right, but the solution has to start with the police. They are, as a group, the ones who have crossed a line and Americans are just fed up. There is no way that I would consider being a police officer in this environment.

I have suggestions.

We need to do better in our hiring practices. Right now they'll bring you into the academy here in Birmingham fresh out of school. That's fine, but the training process needs to be longer and far more extensive so we're producing police officers, not just warm bodies.

We absolutely must eradicate the thinking behind "the blue wall" and increase oversight so the police police themselves effectively and the foxes aren't the ones guarding the henhouse. Eliminate the Unions in their current form while we're at it.

We must tone down the "warrior cop" mentality.

We need to - for lack of a better term - defund the police (I hate this slogan). I don't mean eliminate them, but we need to diversify spending so that they're not being asked to do things they're not qualified to do. For example, they do not need to be the first point of contact for a mentally ill individual suffering a crisis unless they are a threat to themselves or others.

 

[AUDub]

It doesn’t help that my Facebook feed is flooded with memes saying “we always support the cops” and stuff like that. Not all cops are knights in blue.

There's a middle ground to be found here.

 

[B1GTide]

I have suggestions.

We need to do better in our hiring practices. Right now they'll bring you into the academy here in Birmingham fresh out of school. That's fine, but the training process needs to be longer and far more extensive so we're producing police officers, not just warm bodies.

We absolutely must eradicate the thinking behind "the blue wall" and increase oversight so the police police themselves effectively and the foxes aren't the ones guarding the henhouse. Eliminate the Unions in their current form while we're at it.

We must tone down the "warrior cop" mentality.

We need to - for lack of a better term - defund the police (I hate this slogan). I don't mean eliminate them, but we need to diversify spending so that they're not being asked to do things they're not qualified to do. For example, they do not need to be the first point of contact for a mentally ill individual suffering a crisis unless they are a threat to themselves or others.

The primary skills of police officers should be that ability to deescalate volatile situations, and the desire to work within the community as social workers. Beat cops need to be human first, looking to serve and protect the public. If that isn't what they are looking for, look elsewhere.

We need to end SWAT teams, and that entire mentality. We need to end the thin blue line. Sadly, these things won't end unless we fire everyone at the top of these organizations because they are too far gone to be saved.

There is a working model in a very urban part of America:

7 years ago, this city disbanded its police force. It now serves as a model for others.

Crime dropped in Camden, but there’s more to the story, say advocates and longtime residents.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Crimson1967]

There's a middle ground to be found here.

Saying all cops are pigs isn’t the solution, either, I agree.

 

[92tide]

Most cops carry pistols with 4 inch barrels. That they hit anything is generally a surprise.

every one of them will swear the barrel is 9 inches

 

[TexasBama]

every one of them will swear the barrel is 9 inches

The nickname for their pistol is Holmes

 

[jthomas666]

This bothers me a lot. My best friend is a cop. We disagree on a lot regarding policing in America.

But there's no room for nuance or facts in the fervor many of the DEFUND THE POLICE, ACAB folks.

An example, officers in his (North) responded to a domestic in Smithfield last week. People in town have been holding vigils for the guy. Perpetrator got out of his car, gun in hand, and was subsequently shot. Should see some of the stuff that officer is getting on FB. People calling him a pig bastard that should be hung, people say they're going to rape his kids and his wife, stuff like that.

The current environment isn't good. We have to wait for the facts rather than fly off the handle immediately. Police aren't perfect but they don't have a 100% error rate.

These reactions are the result of cops in general not being help accountable for anything. If cops who CLEARLY step outside what could even remotely be considered decent behavior, we wouldn't be seeing such kneejerk reactions.

Trevor Noah freaking NAILS it here:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1382468962290601986

 

[Go Bama]

Sophistry. You are stretching that rule past its breaking point.

No, absolutely not. There is no exception to the rule. You don't shoot until you recognize what you are shooting. The cop shot before he identified his target. There is just no argument against this.

I understand the cop didn't want to get shot first, but by not identifying his target, he shot and killed a 13 year old, unarmed boy. He didn't see a gun, yet he fired. He knew the target was either a small man or a child. Without knowing which, he fired.

FWIW, that is about equivalent to the literal blink of an eye.

Again, just no.

150 bpm equals one beat every 0.4 seconds. Good musicians can play 16th notes (600 notes/minute) at this speed while improvising. Hey, I can blink my eyes at 300 bpm. Ask me how I know.

We all make decisions in fractions of seconds daily while driving, conversing, or deciding which urinal to use when entering a public bathroom.

Give the cop a pass if you want. I can't do it. He killed an unarmed kid that was raising his hands in surrender because he thought the little man he was chasing was going to shoot first. That's the decision that was premature. The cop ended the kid's life, ruined the kid's parents life, ruined his own life, and his family's life. Worst possible scenario.

I have no more to offer on this if you want the last word. I loved your post above (#105).

 

[crimsonaudio]

No, absolutely not. There is no exception to the rule. You don't shoot until you recognize what you are shooting. The cop shot before he identified his target. There is just no argument against this.

You're twisting the rule to match what you want - the rule exists so that you don't shoot something you don't intend to. The cop 100% intended to shoot the person that was armed until less than one second before the shot was fired.

If it wasn't a child you wouldn't be bent - the reality is the child could kill the cop as easily as an adult.

If you want to dive deep into Cooper's Four Rules, I'm game. The cop was right. It just sucks this kid put both of them in this situation.

 

[Go Bama]

You're twisting the rule to match what you want - the rule exists so that you don't shoot something you don't intend to. The cop 100% intended to shoot the person that was armed until less than one second before the shot was fired.

If it wasn't a child you wouldn't be bent - the reality is the child could kill the cop as easily as an adult.

If you want to dive deep into Cooper's Four Rules, I'm game. The cop was right. It just sucks this kid put both of them in this situation.

Sorry, Brad. I strongly disagree. There is no disputing the cop knew this may have been a child. I’ve stated my position and see no reason to pursue this further.

 

[jthomas666]

Sorry, Brad. I strongly disagree. There is no disputing the cop knew this may have been a child. I’ve stated my position and see no reason to pursue this further.

We're not disputing that either, because, sadly, it isn't relevant.

What is relevant is that the person being chased by the officer HAD A GUN. That is what the cop knew. If the victim had been more conspicuous about dropping the gun, or called out "I'm dropping my gun" and tossed it on front of the cop, it would have been a different story. Instead, he stood in partial shadow, next to a fence, and surreptitiously tossed the gun behind the fence where the officer couldn't see the action. The cop legitimately didn't know if the boy was turning to surrender or turning to fire. Could he have waited? Sure. Would it have been better if he had waited? In this case, yes. But if the guy had been turning to fire and the cop had waited, the cop might be dead.

I've been pretty vocal when cops cross the line, so it's not like I'm willing to let them get away with anything.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Sorry, Brad. I strongly disagree. There is no disputing the cop knew this may have been a child. I’ve stated my position and see no reason to pursue this further.

Thats fine, but you keep replying. What you seem to be missing is this - whether it was a kid or not doesn't matter. At all. Kids can kill cops just as easily as adults. He was DEFINITELY armed with a handgun and running from the cop. He waited until the last possible second (literally) to drop the firearm and then spun around.

The kid was stupid and paid the ultimate price. It sucks. And I'm sure the cop feels worse about it than any of us. But the cop wasn't wrong.

The kid played a stupid game and won a stupid prize.

 

[TexasBama]

Video of Adam Toledo's killing shows he dropped what appears to be a gun, put his hands up as instructed, and got shot all within 2 seconds

Eric Stillman of the Chicago Police Department fatally shot Toledo on March 29. Bodycam video released on Thursday prompted outrage.

www.insider.com

 

[AUDub]

Video of Adam Toledo's killing shows he dropped what appears to be a gun, put his hands up as instructed, and got shot all within 2 seconds

Eric Stillman of the Chicago Police Department fatally shot Toledo on March 29. Bodycam video released on Thursday prompted outrage.

www.insider.com

I posted this earlier and it's a pretty clear breakdown.

 

[Go Bama]

Thats fine, but you keep replying.

You sound like you are miffed. If I have angered you, I humbly and sincerely apologize. None of my posts have been meant to ruffle any feathers.

My first post to Dub was made at home this morning. My second was made from Bass Pro Shops after I had dropped my wife and daughter off at St Jude. My third was from the parking lot at St Jude when I was waiting to pick them up. Because of Covid, they only allow one parent at at time in the hospital after the first five days. The last posts were made after we returned home. I thought I was just checking in and responding to posts. I also thought your first post to me deserved a response rather than an ignore.

Maybe I'm overly sensitive to this because my child is also 13 and is threatened with death. I can relate so well to the parent of the dead child. In my mind, it most definitely makes a difference that it was a child. As far as I know, the parents weren't playing stupid games. They are the ones who will suffer the most.

I'm going to take a few days off from Tidefans. Peace.

 

[crimsonaudio]

You sound like you are miffed. If I have angered you, I humbly and sincerely apologize. None of my posts have been meant to ruffle any feathers.

No, not miffed at all, sorry if I somehow gave that impression.

Maybe I'm overly sensitive to this because my child is also 13 and is threatened with death. I can relate so well to the parent of the dead child. In my mind, it most definitely makes a difference that it was a child. As far as I know, the parents weren't playing stupid games. They are the ones who will suffer the most.

Absolutely understand this and considered it earlier in the discussion, honestly. How we view the world shifts according to our experiences, without question, and I understand how this looks differently to you than to me.

I suspect without the emotional involvement you currently have you might view this situation differently.