I think one reason for the disagreements on this board regarding CMG is the difference in the way he is judged. Many of you only remember the dark days of David Hobbs and feel CMG can do no wrong. I for one can remember back to some of the great teams of CM Newton. They were far better than the Elite 8 bunch, but because of the way the tourney was run in those days would be forced into early round games against some of the best teams in the country. Some years they didn't even make the trny because only the SEC champ got in, despite being a potential top ten team. Wimps teams had some talent but were always well coached, it was a little harder to recruit in those days before all the TV deals that put us on TV regularly. Now you have CMG who I am not saying is a terrible coach. I do however feel that he has hit the ceiling, and that we will never truly get better as a program, or become a national contender on a consistant basis. If just making the trny 75% of the time, and making a little run every 8 to 10 years is your idea of success then he is your guy. If you are like me and would like to see us become a real player in college basketball then we either need to make a change, or CMG needs to swallow his pride and go ask for some help by hiring some assistants who really bring something to the table and are willing to challenge him, and by being willing to change some of his philosophies as needed to match the personnel.
Combined CMG thread - please don't start new ones...
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Re: How do you judge CMG?
Had several of C.M.'s teams shot 70 percent from the foul line, they wouldn't have lost a game. Some of them were that good. Even his less-talented teams succeeded because they played well together and always attacked your weakness with their strengths.
Wimp was a nut, but he built real teams, and his teams always fought and almost always peaked at season's end.
Three questions about Mark:
Does he see the court?
Do his teams play hard?
Do the teams and players improve under his hand?
I still don't know the answers. Maybe that's an answer in itself.
Had several of C.M.'s teams shot 70 percent from the foul line, they wouldn't have lost a game. Some of them were that good. Even his less-talented teams succeeded because they played well together and always attacked your weakness with their strengths.
Wimp was a nut, but he built real teams, and his teams always fought and almost always peaked at season's end.
Three questions about Mark:
Does he see the court?
Do his teams play hard?
Do the teams and players improve under his hand?
I still don't know the answers. Maybe that's an answer in itself.
Re: How do you judge CMG?
I have never actually thought that CMG was a great in game coach, ever. He's really good at the other stuff, recruiting, public speaking, keeping the program clean, etc. but as far as coaching? Not sure he's really capable of utilizing all of the talent that he's able to recruit. Give him credit for bringing them in. The question is- Is he capable of taking them to the next level? In most cases, I would have to say no. I would also have to say that the players, some of the time, has been able to overcome that deficiency by winning games on talent alone (Les Miles style, although I think CMG deserves more credit than Miles b/c at least they are the players he recruited). Either way, it's a very debatable subject.
I have never actually thought that CMG was a great in game coach, ever. He's really good at the other stuff, recruiting, public speaking, keeping the program clean, etc. but as far as coaching? Not sure he's really capable of utilizing all of the talent that he's able to recruit. Give him credit for bringing them in. The question is- Is he capable of taking them to the next level? In most cases, I would have to say no. I would also have to say that the players, some of the time, has been able to overcome that deficiency by winning games on talent alone (Les Miles style, although I think CMG deserves more credit than Miles b/c at least they are the players he recruited). Either way, it's a very debatable subject.
Re: How do you judge CMG?
We were at our best when TR Dunn was on the staff. He probably had more to do with the SEC Championship than anyone.
If we cannot shoot free throws better than what we do now, that is unexcusable. We have boatloads of talent, yet this team is fundamentally a step behind other teams.
We have great talent, yet we are not even close to our potential.
Consider me a CMG supporter who is now on the fence. How this season plays out, will decide a lot for me.
We were at our best when TR Dunn was on the staff. He probably had more to do with the SEC Championship than anyone.
If we cannot shoot free throws better than what we do now, that is unexcusable. We have boatloads of talent, yet this team is fundamentally a step behind other teams.
We have great talent, yet we are not even close to our potential.
Consider me a CMG supporter who is now on the fence. How this season plays out, will decide a lot for me.
Re: How do you judge CMG?
You would think after 9 years in CMG's program we would be further along than we are. Ron Steele (not being available) is being cited as the main reason we aren't any better than we are.....does this mean we shouldn't expect to be any better once his eligibility runs out? I have wondered why we don't have another point guard than could at least run the offense, dish out assists & play some D even he couldn't score like Steele.
I like CMG but am beginning to wonder about our future with him at the helm. Seems like something is missing........a 2 point win over SELA & a 2 point loss to Belmont doesn't make me think we'll be in contention for a division title much less a conference championship. If we are going to field a team in any sport I think we should try to be the best we can be.....I don't think we have been that lately in basketball.
You would think after 9 years in CMG's program we would be further along than we are. Ron Steele (not being available) is being cited as the main reason we aren't any better than we are.....does this mean we shouldn't expect to be any better once his eligibility runs out? I have wondered why we don't have another point guard than could at least run the offense, dish out assists & play some D even he couldn't score like Steele.
I like CMG but am beginning to wonder about our future with him at the helm. Seems like something is missing........a 2 point win over SELA & a 2 point loss to Belmont doesn't make me think we'll be in contention for a division title much less a conference championship. If we are going to field a team in any sport I think we should try to be the best we can be.....I don't think we have been that lately in basketball.
Re: How do you judge CMG?
http://www.nba.com/coachfile/tr_dunn/index.html
If a change were to be made, I would hope Dunn would be the first person we would call.
I also want to add that losing Rah Rah Scott hurt as well. Great guy and a great coach.
http://www.nba.com/coachfile/tr_dunn/index.html
If a change were to be made, I would hope Dunn would be the first person we would call.
I also want to add that losing Rah Rah Scott hurt as well. Great guy and a great coach.
Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective
I apologize for the length of this post, but when I got started, I just couldn't quit.
When I visited the basketball board for the first time since last season a few days ago, I mentioned how I had gone from being an avid supporter of Crimson Tide basketball to one who just doesn't care anymore. In actuality, it's not that I don't care anymore. It's just that there is nothing about it at this point to grab my interest. I've read with interest the comments both pro-Gottfried and anti-Gottfried over the last several days. I've also contributed on the anti-Gottfried side and in doing so, I've been more critical than I've been of any other Bama personality since the beginning of TideFans.com. At some point during the last 24 hours or so, it dawned on me that those who are supporting and defending Gottfried and his record likely have a significantly different perspective than do those that are being most critical.
For instance, the first Bama basketball game I attended was as a small child when Bama still played in Foster Auditorium. After that experience, my next memories of Bama basketball are from the C M Newton years. I recall that during his tenure, the NIT was still perceived to be the more prestigious of the post season tournaments and Bama was making the NIT quite frequently. I really became an avid Bama Basketball fan about the time that Wimp became the head coach. At that time I began to attend games regularly and really began paying attention. During Wimp's tenure, Bama Basketball became a fixture in the finals of the newly renewed SEC Basketball Tourney. Bama Basketball also became a fixture in the NCAA tournaments. Going to the NCAA was expected. Anything less was a subpar season and not making the sweet 16 became a disappointment. Wimp truly raised the bar for Alabama Basketball.
Of course, Wimp was succeeded by Hobbs and then Gottfried. Sure, Gottfried got us beyond the sweet 16--once; however, does anyone think that we are truly better off?
Personally, I'd prefer to be at a level where we are watching on selection Sunday to see how high we are seeded as opposed to watching to see if we even managed to get in. It's truly sad that we've become a fan base that just hopes that we make it to the NIT. My perspective is that of one who witnessed the rise of Bama Basketball during Newton's tenure and saw it elevated to an even higher level under Sanderson. I have now seen it fall to a level that can most generously be described as mediocre. If I seem overly critical, it's because the product I'm seeing on the court falls so far short of the that which I grew to expect.
Once I had the epiphany I referenced above, it subsequently dawned on me that anyone under about 25 likely has only a vague recollection of the Sanderson years. Therefore, they don't remember frequently seeing Bama in the conference tourney finals and going to the 1st and 2nd round NCAA games fully expecting to be making another trip the next weekend. Fans below 25, naturally including current UA students, know the post season as hoping for an extra home game or two in the first couple of rounds of the NIT.
It's actually sad that we've reached a point of hoping for mediocrity as opposed to expecting excellence.
I think we had about reached that point with Bama football before we finally about reached bottom and went out and hired a top tier coach.
Now, if all we want is decent seasons of .500 or slightly better with trips to the NIT, then we've got who we need; however, if we want to strive for excellence and attempt to match and even surpass the successes of the 70s and 80s, then we have to make a change.
I apologize for the length of this post, but when I got started, I just couldn't quit.
When I visited the basketball board for the first time since last season a few days ago, I mentioned how I had gone from being an avid supporter of Crimson Tide basketball to one who just doesn't care anymore. In actuality, it's not that I don't care anymore. It's just that there is nothing about it at this point to grab my interest. I've read with interest the comments both pro-Gottfried and anti-Gottfried over the last several days. I've also contributed on the anti-Gottfried side and in doing so, I've been more critical than I've been of any other Bama personality since the beginning of TideFans.com. At some point during the last 24 hours or so, it dawned on me that those who are supporting and defending Gottfried and his record likely have a significantly different perspective than do those that are being most critical.
For instance, the first Bama basketball game I attended was as a small child when Bama still played in Foster Auditorium. After that experience, my next memories of Bama basketball are from the C M Newton years. I recall that during his tenure, the NIT was still perceived to be the more prestigious of the post season tournaments and Bama was making the NIT quite frequently. I really became an avid Bama Basketball fan about the time that Wimp became the head coach. At that time I began to attend games regularly and really began paying attention. During Wimp's tenure, Bama Basketball became a fixture in the finals of the newly renewed SEC Basketball Tourney. Bama Basketball also became a fixture in the NCAA tournaments. Going to the NCAA was expected. Anything less was a subpar season and not making the sweet 16 became a disappointment. Wimp truly raised the bar for Alabama Basketball.
Of course, Wimp was succeeded by Hobbs and then Gottfried. Sure, Gottfried got us beyond the sweet 16--once; however, does anyone think that we are truly better off?
Personally, I'd prefer to be at a level where we are watching on selection Sunday to see how high we are seeded as opposed to watching to see if we even managed to get in. It's truly sad that we've become a fan base that just hopes that we make it to the NIT. My perspective is that of one who witnessed the rise of Bama Basketball during Newton's tenure and saw it elevated to an even higher level under Sanderson. I have now seen it fall to a level that can most generously be described as mediocre. If I seem overly critical, it's because the product I'm seeing on the court falls so far short of the that which I grew to expect.
Once I had the epiphany I referenced above, it subsequently dawned on me that anyone under about 25 likely has only a vague recollection of the Sanderson years. Therefore, they don't remember frequently seeing Bama in the conference tourney finals and going to the 1st and 2nd round NCAA games fully expecting to be making another trip the next weekend. Fans below 25, naturally including current UA students, know the post season as hoping for an extra home game or two in the first couple of rounds of the NIT.
It's actually sad that we've reached a point of hoping for mediocrity as opposed to expecting excellence.
I think we had about reached that point with Bama football before we finally about reached bottom and went out and hired a top tier coach.
Now, if all we want is decent seasons of .500 or slightly better with trips to the NIT, then we've got who we need; however, if we want to strive for excellence and attempt to match and even surpass the successes of the 70s and 80s, then we have to make a change.
Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective
great post. i'm a soph. at bama right now. i don't remember wimp at all. i don't even remember hobbs, really. i've been a basketball fan my entire life, just not a bama basketball fan. i didn't start paying attention to bama bball untill i was in jr. high. gottfried was the coach then. i have followed ever since then. i do know that we have the ability to be a fixture in the sweet sixteen again, but gottfried isn't going to do it for us. we are getting too much talent to not be doing better than we are.
great post. i'm a soph. at bama right now. i don't remember wimp at all. i don't even remember hobbs, really. i've been a basketball fan my entire life, just not a bama basketball fan. i didn't start paying attention to bama bball untill i was in jr. high. gottfried was the coach then. i have followed ever since then. i do know that we have the ability to be a fixture in the sweet sixteen again, but gottfried isn't going to do it for us. we are getting too much talent to not be doing better than we are.
Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective
i feel as a fan and alumnus, that this program has reached a stagnant point. i reserve hard feelings until this season plays out. we have plenty of talent sans steele, to be competitive in a down year. that said, if this team makes the tourney, i will stand by cmg. if they do not, i will question his leadership.
TEACH THESE KIDS TO SHOOT FREE THROWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i feel as a fan and alumnus, that this program has reached a stagnant point. i reserve hard feelings until this season plays out. we have plenty of talent sans steele, to be competitive in a down year. that said, if this team makes the tourney, i will stand by cmg. if they do not, i will question his leadership.
TEACH THESE KIDS TO SHOOT FREE THROWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective
Don't the repetitive nature of these posts get tiring after awhile? I'm 38, remember CMs teams from my early years vaguely......I remember Anthony Murray, and TR Dunn and Reggie King, and that's about it. I really started to pay attention in the Phillip Lockett, Eddie Adams, Mike Davis, Eddie Phillips, timeline.......Then of course through the Farmer, Gottfried, McKey, Ansley, Coach Sanderson years.
It's not that there is the Pre Hobbs and Post Hobbs fans that split their allegience to Coach Gottfried, its the traditional Half Full/Half Empty fans that split it. Some fans will always support their coach, because he is the coach, and he knows more about his sport than we do. Some fans will always rip their coach after any loss, because they "THINK" they know more about the sport than he does. The majority of the ones that post here are the extremists on each side, a few from the gray middle post as well, but not as many, so you have nothing but extremists posting usually, so you get the obvious separation.
The ones that support their coach are not settling for mediocrity they are supporting their team, their players and their coaches.......until someone smarter than them makes the changes that "they" see fit in making. Until then it's Roll Tide!
Don't the repetitive nature of these posts get tiring after awhile? I'm 38, remember CMs teams from my early years vaguely......I remember Anthony Murray, and TR Dunn and Reggie King, and that's about it. I really started to pay attention in the Phillip Lockett, Eddie Adams, Mike Davis, Eddie Phillips, timeline.......Then of course through the Farmer, Gottfried, McKey, Ansley, Coach Sanderson years.
It's not that there is the Pre Hobbs and Post Hobbs fans that split their allegience to Coach Gottfried, its the traditional Half Full/Half Empty fans that split it. Some fans will always support their coach, because he is the coach, and he knows more about his sport than we do. Some fans will always rip their coach after any loss, because they "THINK" they know more about the sport than he does. The majority of the ones that post here are the extremists on each side, a few from the gray middle post as well, but not as many, so you have nothing but extremists posting usually, so you get the obvious separation.
The ones that support their coach are not settling for mediocrity they are supporting their team, their players and their coaches.......until someone smarter than them makes the changes that "they" see fit in making. Until then it's Roll Tide!
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Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective
Also......i'd love to have more than one pure shooter on the team, Riley is really the only pure shooter, the rest of our guards are ball handlers, and slashers.......Gee is more of a slasher......
I think the further along I get........I really miss Earnest Shelton........he may end up being one of my favorite players ever.
Personally, I think that they are taught free throws......because if you look at shooting form (sans Hendrix - ugly form, lol), they all look fundamentally sound. I think it's pressure that hurts them. I think high school kids are taught to shoot threes and dribble drive and dunk..........and that's it. Then they get to college and they haven't had to learn how before.....
Also......i'd love to have more than one pure shooter on the team, Riley is really the only pure shooter, the rest of our guards are ball handlers, and slashers.......Gee is more of a slasher......
I think the further along I get........I really miss Earnest Shelton........he may end up being one of my favorite players ever.
Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective
I was a huge fan of Wimp, but I am also a fan of CMG. We do get talent to compete during a much tougher time to get that talent. In the days of the great players being 1 or 2 years and gone, CMG puts very good players on the floor every year. This year with a young team we have lost 1 game we should have won. We have lost 2 games (one on the road) to final four contenders. CMG has had a good deal of success over his tenure at Bama. Wimp had us in the tourney every year and usually in the sweet 16, but if you take a look at it, basketball is different now. Look at Arkansas, KY, Louisville and others. The smaller schools are making it much tougher to be a consistent power in a conference or national rankings. I know that everyone is entitled to their opinion and mine is we are not that bad off. We have a great deal of talent and a very good class coming in next year along with the return of a great point guard. We DO have a coach that has taken us to an elite eight and a number one ranking. I am looking forward to the rest of this year and next!
I was a huge fan of Wimp, but I am also a fan of CMG. We do get talent to compete during a much tougher time to get that talent. In the days of the great players being 1 or 2 years and gone, CMG puts very good players on the floor every year. This year with a young team we have lost 1 game we should have won. We have lost 2 games (one on the road) to final four contenders. CMG has had a good deal of success over his tenure at Bama. Wimp had us in the tourney every year and usually in the sweet 16, but if you take a look at it, basketball is different now. Look at Arkansas, KY, Louisville and others. The smaller schools are making it much tougher to be a consistent power in a conference or national rankings. I know that everyone is entitled to their opinion and mine is we are not that bad off. We have a great deal of talent and a very good class coming in next year along with the return of a great point guard. We DO have a coach that has taken us to an elite eight and a number one ranking. I am looking forward to the rest of this year and next!
Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective
The only rating that counts is at the end of the year. I make a distinction between supporting the team and supporting the particular coach. I've never wavered in my support of any Bama team, but I certainly did not support Dubose after I found out what was going on and I certainly did not support Shula his last couple of years, once again after I found what was happening under the hood. I support the USA. That doesn't mean that I support every president we've had. There've been some I literally couldn't wait to see depart. That's my perspective - no blind support...
The only rating that counts is at the end of the year. I make a distinction between supporting the team and supporting the particular coach. I've never wavered in my support of any Bama team, but I certainly did not support Dubose after I found out what was going on and I certainly did not support Shula his last couple of years, once again after I found what was happening under the hood. I support the USA. That doesn't mean that I support every president we've had. There've been some I literally couldn't wait to see depart. That's my perspective - no blind support...
Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective
As for perspective, I was in the stands at Coleman Coliseum in 1972 when an Alabama team led by two African-American kids named Wendell Hudson and Raymond Odums beat strong UT and UK squads back to back.
I walked up and down a street in St. Louis with a transistor radio trying to find a clearer signal of the 1976 IU-Alabama NCAA regional semi-final game where undefeated IU, the eventual National Champion, had to play their very best to catch us at the end. I was in the stands in the early 80's when a top - ranked and eventual Final 4 Kentucky team came to Tuscaloosa and couldn't get the ball in against the withering press of a Bama team so thin that Wimp gambled that the TV timeouts would give us just the amount of recovery time to pull it off.
It is more than wins and losses. It is quality, passion, and pride; all those qualities we demand from our football team. We should expect no less from our basketball team. We really shouldn't.
HKT, everything you say is true yet the big picture things you emphasize would make the Alabama basketball program look pretty solid. I guess I, and maybe other critics of Coach Mark, am wallowing in the little things that indicate something less: our alarming lack of competitiveness on the road when we get down, our inability to run our offense in crunch time, the lack of depth in a 10-year old "solid" program has me scratching my head, the continual absence of flexible approach to game strategy (Is going zone on defense our only recourse?), and the, as one poster put it, "just OK" quality to play is wearing on me.
As for perspective, I was in the stands at Coleman Coliseum in 1972 when an Alabama team led by two African-American kids named Wendell Hudson and Raymond Odums beat strong UT and UK squads back to back.
I walked up and down a street in St. Louis with a transistor radio trying to find a clearer signal of the 1976 IU-Alabama NCAA regional semi-final game where undefeated IU, the eventual National Champion, had to play their very best to catch us at the end. I was in the stands in the early 80's when a top - ranked and eventual Final 4 Kentucky team came to Tuscaloosa and couldn't get the ball in against the withering press of a Bama team so thin that Wimp gambled that the TV timeouts would give us just the amount of recovery time to pull it off.
It is more than wins and losses. It is quality, passion, and pride; all those qualities we demand from our football team. We should expect no less from our basketball team. We really shouldn't.
Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective
As for Gottfried, I would compare him to Houston Nutt. I am not sure why people want to fire him so bad. Would I like to have a team that feels as if it should be in the tournament every year? Of course. But finding that coach is tough, and Gottfried is steady enough to hold on to until that name surfaces or we find a guy with interest in the job.
You can't really change someones free throw percentage. You may get lucky and raise it a point or two, but it is basically like catching a football at this stage. You generally have it or you dont. Shaq has spent probably 20,000 dollars learning to shoot free throws. Doesnt help any...
As for Gottfried, I would compare him to Houston Nutt. I am not sure why people want to fire him so bad. Would I like to have a team that feels as if it should be in the tournament every year? Of course. But finding that coach is tough, and Gottfried is steady enough to hold on to until that name surfaces or we find a guy with interest in the job.
Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective
Year Bama's % Leader %
2007 70.8 villanova 78.1
2006 70.8 st. joes 79.9
2005 73.6 utep 79.2
2004 70.9 nc state 79.9
2003 71.3 manhattan 78.8
2002 73.6 morehead st 78.4
If you want CMG replaced that's fine but let's give the free throw shooting a rest. At some point you have to put this years free throw results on the players.
BamaLaw, please show me a post where anyway has said making the NIT is acceptable and desirable.
I know this will fall on deaf ears but here are some statistics for the viewing pleasure of the CMG doesn't know how to teach free throw shooting camp. On more that one occasion we have led the SEC in free throw shooting during this tenure.
Year Bama's % Leader %
2007 70.8 villanova 78.1
2006 70.8 st. joes 79.9
2005 73.6 utep 79.2
2004 70.9 nc state 79.9
2003 71.3 manhattan 78.8
2002 73.6 morehead st 78.4
If you want CMG replaced that's fine but let's give the free throw shooting a rest. At some point you have to put this years free throw results on the players.
BamaLaw, please show me a post where anyway has said making the NIT is acceptable and desirable.
Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective
Though no one has said it in so many words, in my opinion, when someone is defending Gottfried and the seasons he has produced, they are accepting records which can only hope to get us into the NIT and supporting continued mediocrity. Folks don't have to spell it out. People can certainly read what is said and draw logical inferences.
Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective
I'm very interested in reading everyone's list of possible replacements that would want to come here and not use us as a stepping stone.
I don't have a law degree, so maybe my inferences aren't logical but I would argue those calling for new coaches have changed their expectations of this program.
I'm very interested in reading everyone's list of possible replacements that would want to come here and not use us as a stepping stone.
Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/teams/stats?teamId=333
http://www.rolltide.com/fls/8000/files/mbasketball/2007-08/teamcume.htm?DB_OEM_ID=8000
and i never implied Gottfried should be fired just because of free throws.
I would like to know where you got these bogus numbers. RollTide.com and ESPN.COM show us shooting 58% this year. If you watched the games, you would know we dont shoot 70%.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/teams/stats?teamId=333
http://www.rolltide.com/fls/8000/files/mbasketball/2007-08/teamcume.htm?DB_OEM_ID=8000
and i never implied Gottfried should be fired just because of free throws.
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