Defending the HUNH

[imauafan]

And Saban can bring in someone experienced at defending the HUHN

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not being critical of Smart at all. I think he is probably an outstanding DC in his own right. I just think he may be at a point in his career where he would be better off to get out from under CNS's wing and run his own show assuming he has aspirations of being a HC at a major program one day. If he is happy being a career DC then he should stay right where he is.

 

[RTRCharlotte]

I concur. I just think that Saban may need someone to offer different thoughts about defense through what I expect to be a transitional period. That means - how do we practice, work out, recruit, game plan, etc. Ultimately, Saban is the captain of the ship.

 

[teamplayer]

You know odds are Saban has realized this a year or so ago and is in the process of making the change. But these type changes simply don't happen over night. Especially when you've got five other recruiting classes already on the team built for a different style of football.

I think I mentioned that in one of the game threads last night. We are built to beat teams like LSU, and we have beaten them three times in a row, which isn't an easy task. However, I don't think that we are going to be able to just have one style. We will need to be able to beat the LSU type teams and the Auburn type teams in order to win championships, but there seem to be more and more of the HUNH teams because it gives teams with less talent a chance to level the playing field. However, if our coaches figure out an effective game plan against it, we will still be playing with more talent than others and will be just fine. Like others have said, I would definitely investigate what LSU and Stanford have done against that style the last few years.

 

[tmv85]

Many of our current recruits appear to be more 'hybrid-like' - a cross between the huge guys CNS has historically brought in and the smaller, quicker guys. I think we need to tweak the overall personnel slightly, not drastically, so from what I've been seeing we're right on target.

I honestly don't understand the hand-wringing by some - we have what many think may be the GOAT as HC, and he's a defensive specialist, so give him time and he'll get it right...

Thanks! I trust completely that he'll get the defense where it needs to be. Should we expect another year or so of some struggles though until we have the type players who will be successful at these faster offenses?

 

[RTR91]

We can talk about getting "leaner" players all we want, but they don't stay that way when they get on campus. Hubbard and Dickson were supposed to be lean guys. Hubbard was 6'5 and 227 coming out of high school. He played this season at 265. Dickson has gained 30 pounds since he arrived in 2011. Those numbers are from Rivals, which probably gave the players a little extra weight.

Bama fans pride ourselves on Cochran and the Fourth Quarter Program. That may need to be an area of adjustment, so guys don't bulk up so much once they're on campus.

 

[AlistarWills]

And Saban can bring in someone experienced at defending the HUHN

and lose repeatedly because you can't stop LSU from ramming the ball between the tackles and making you like it....

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I think I mentioned that in one of the game threads last night. We are built to beat teams like LSU, and we have beaten them three times in a row, which isn't an easy task. However, I don't think that we are going to be able to just have one style. We will need to be able to beat the LSU type teams and the Auburn type teams in order to win championships, but there seem to be more and more of the HUNH teams because it gives teams with less talent a chance to level the playing field. However, if our coaches figure out an effective game plan against it, we will still be playing with more talent than others and will be just fine. Like others have said, I would definitely investigate what LSU and Stanford have done against that style the last few years.

I agree. Having a 295 DT rather than 310 DT could make all the difference in the world. On top of that rotating multiple DT's of that same size throughout the game could also help. We don't do that as of now. We will have to move toward a more hybrid type player to keep up.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

We can talk about getting "leaner" players all we want, but they don't stay that way when they get on campus. Hubbard and Dickson were supposed to be lean guys. Hubbard was 6'5 and 227 coming out of high school. He played this season at 265. Dickson has gained 30 pounds since he arrived in 2011. Those numbers are from Rivals, which probably gave the players a little extra weight.

Bama fans pride ourselves on Cochran and the Fourth Quarter Program. That may need to be an area of adjustment, so guys don't bulk up so much once they're on campus.

This. Auburn and Stanford (that we know of) have stopped implementing lifting to get "bulk" results. But have gone to a more cross fit type program. Which I would assume produces leaner more versatile type players.

 

[imauafan]

We can talk about getting "leaner" players all we want, but they don't stay that way when they get on campus. Hubbard and Dickson were supposed to be lean guys. Hubbard was 6'5 and 227 coming out of high school. He played this season at 265. Dickson has gained 30 pounds since he arrived in 2011. Those numbers are from Rivals, which probably gave the players a little extra weight.

Bama fans pride ourselves on Cochran and the Fourth Quarter Program. That may need to be an area of adjustment, so guys don't bulk up so much once they're on campus.

It's not just defensive players. I thought that both Ingram and Richardson bulked up too much and lost speed after their freshmen years. Early in the season last year I actually thought Lacy had bulked up too much but he seemed to be able to carry the weight better and it actually benefitted him because he added the element of power to his game. But in general I think we need to re-evaulate our bulk-over-speed philosophy in the S&C program.

 

[imauafan]

and lose repeatedly because you can't stop LSU from ramming the ball between the tackles and making you like it....

and therein lies a problem with making too dramatic of a change to the defense. LSU and also Arky are going to be very physical teams that we will have to deal with.

 

[BamaFlum]

And the other side of the ball will help. We tweak the defense but keep the power run/PA pass offense against these lighter defenses. Play for 5 min drives to keep the opposing offense off the field and we may have the blueprint for another successful run.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk, so my fat fingers cause misspellings and autocorrect makes my ships into...

 

[bamaslaw]

I agree. Having a 295 DT rather than 310 DT could make all the difference in the world. On top of that rotating multiple DT's of that same size throughout the game could also help. We don't do that as of now. We will have to move toward a more hybrid type player to keep up.

IMO - you need a Nick Gentry to go with a Cody/Chapman. And yes sometime you may need to use a timeout to get that Nick Gentry on the field on critical third downs vs the HUNH.

 

[JDCrimson]

I agree. Having a 295 DT rather than 310 DT could make all the difference in the world. On top of that rotating multiple DT's of that same size throughout the game could also help. We don't do that as of now. We will have to move toward a more hybrid type player to keep up.

Problem is I cant see how you can recruit enough of 300+ NG/tackles that can move to keep an effective rotation against these tempo offenses. This is the problem we face similar to LSU this year. Defensively, they could matchup with us for the full game and we won in the second half while we neutralized their running game.

I know we won against TAMU early in the season, but I would venture to say that had we played them in late October/Nov like last year that we might not have won that game either...

 

[JDCrimson]

I will add another comment on this...

I distinctly remembered when CNS and Muschamp were at LSU they were reveled for their creative blitzing attacking style of defense. Those LSU defenses were great at playing on the offense's side of the LOS creating havoc in the backfield with TFLs and Sacks.

However, if you compare that defensive philosophy to what is run at Bama now it appears diametrically different in that we are built to hold/clog the LOS rather than trying to create a negative play. In theory this should limit the defense's exposure to the QB scrambles up the middle and draw plays but it seems wholely ineffective against a Zone read spread attack coupled with tempo. You have to create a negative play on first down to win against the Zone spread running attack, imo, which means you have to get penetration up field to disrupt some of the options the QB has to distribute the ball.

I think coach is going to have to revive some of his defensive philosophy that he used at LSU to curtail some of this stuff.

 

[TexasRed]

and lose repeatedly because you can't stop LSU from ramming the ball between the tackles and making you like it....

Sure, but there's a point where your returns diminish. I think bill polian (former Indy gm) conducted a study for draft planning purposes on player size and winning percentage and found that heavier teams did not win more than lighter ones. I think we can probably afford to give up a few pounds and still compete with pro style teams.

 

[stlimprov]

I find myself wondering about improvisation vs. execution. The two don't have to be exclusive, but they can be different mental skill sets. It would seem that there is an argument to be made that Saban's process places heavy emphasis on precise execution.

If the goal of HUNH is to 1. limit substitution, and 2. limit systemic adjustments before the snap, this puts more decision making responsibility on individual defenders. As I understand it, both Leach-type passing offenses and read option running offenses are based around the idea of having relatively few plays within which there are numerous options. Whether it is novelty (which is defeated over time with acclimation) or a persistant strength of these schemes, it would appear that these schemes demand a type of decision making on the part of defenders which is more like improvisation and less like a systemic decision tree. (Again, not saying that the two are exclusive.)

I've heard mention that our defenders look slow. I'd put forth that while one element of this could be anatomical phenotype, it could also be that they are being put into a position that requires a kind of decision making which is uncomfortable. In uncomfortable situations one tends to think slow, and if one thinks slow, one moves slow. If Alabama defenders are routinely bigger and faster in raw terms, cognitive disruption becomes the only strategy to minimize this disadvantage. Like guerrilla warfare, a smaller force could not hope to compete in conventional terms with a (conventionally) superior force, so they must change the rules of engagement to have any chance. In improv comedy/acting, there's a frequently used phrase about "getting too much in my head" in which the performer is overthinking each decision during performance, to the detriment of his ability to act. Is there something about this sort of scheme (which, from the highly trained systemic viewpoint looks like to lack structure) that gets our defenders in their head and leads to playing that bit slower?

So...presuming that there's something to this, how does one modify the Saban process to develop more of the sort of "chaotic" decision making capacity (preferably without significantly sacrificing the systemic decision making)? Both types of thinking are skills and can be developed. The two are not mutually exclusive. But I find myself wondering if the successful adaptation to Saban's process is this sort of cognitive "chaos" that emphasizes quickness and flexibility and the ability to be comfortable in that (seemingly chaotic) environment.

Then on the far end of this spectrum is the sort of thing raised by Heart of Darkness or Apocalypse Now: following the guerrilla war analogy, at what point in response to this do your "methods become unsound"?

 

[LuckyDucky]

I got away from football for a while with the regular season ending, so I haven't posted in a while (not that I posted a bunch anyway). As one of the few Oregon fans on here obviously I'm completely biased!! But it's interesting reading the discussion here and seeing the difference in football philosophies. As a football fan in general, I don't want to see every team playing the same way. I like that some teams have the "smashmouth" identity, others have the speed, others have some combo of the two. Trends ebb and flow over time, and what's "cool" now will likely be adapted to. For all we know 10 years from now no one will have the HUNH, but some variation of an older style.

As a fan from another conference far away, it's interesting to see that you guys are actually talking about some of the same stuff we are, in a way - as in, do our teams need to make major changes in our defensive philosophy, or the personnel we recruit, etc. With back to back Stanford losses some UO fans are wondering if we need some major changes in our defense. But I think your style is as part of your identity as O's spread/speed/etc. are part of our identity. Both of our teams probably need to evolve, adjust, and continue to adapt with the game. Clearly what Alabama's done has worked well, with back to back titles, and very few slip-ups, and while Oregon has been good lately we still have a ways to go in my opinion.

I think any scheme has at least a couple weaknesses that can be overcome by good enough teams. Part of what makes my yellow-and-green fun for me to watch, is also what can cause us problems. To do well, our O-line has to block well, protect the QB, and the D needs to get the opponent off the field quickly to give our offense chances to get into a rhythm. As some here have said, our D has to be in excellent shape since if the offense scores quickly, they're on the field a lot more. It can leave our quarterbacks vulnerable. As such, the pro style has its own rare weaknesses if the opposing team is good enough to take advantage of them. So yeah. Football is fun! And I am learning a lot and have a lot to learn.

 

[RTR91]

I find myself wondering about improvisation vs. execution. The two don't have to be exclusive, but they can be different mental skill sets. It would seem that there is an argument to be made that Saban's process places heavy emphasis on precise execution.

If the goal of HUNH is to 1. limit substitution, and 2. limit systemic adjustments before the snap, this puts more decision making responsibility on individual defenders. As I understand it, both Leach-type passing offenses and read option running offenses are based around the idea of having relatively few plays within which there are numerous options. Whether it is novelty (which is defeated over time with acclimation) or a persistant strength of these schemes, it would appear that these schemes demand a type of decision making on the part of defenders which is more like improvisation and less like a systemic decision tree. (Again, not saying that the two are exclusive.)

I've heard mention that our defenders look slow. I'd put forth that while one element of this could be anatomical phenotype, it could also be that they are being put into a position that requires a kind of decision making which is uncomfortable. In uncomfortable situations one tends to think slow, and if one thinks slow, one moves slow. If Alabama defenders are routinely bigger and faster in raw terms, cognitive disruption becomes the only strategy to minimize this disadvantage. Like guerrilla warfare, a smaller force could not hope to compete in conventional terms with a (conventionally) superior force, so they must change the rules of engagement to have any chance. In improv comedy/acting, there's a frequently used phrase about "getting too much in my head" in which the performer is overthinking each decision during performance, to the detriment of his ability to act. Is there something about this sort of scheme (which, from the highly trained systemic viewpoint looks like to lack structure) that gets our defenders in their head and leads to playing that bit slower?

So...presuming that there's something to this, how does one modify the Saban process to develop more of the sort of "chaotic" decision making capacity (preferably without significantly sacrificing the systemic decision making)? Both types of thinking are skills and can be developed. The two are not mutually exclusive. But I find myself wondering if the successful adaptation to Saban's process is this sort of cognitive "chaos" that emphasizes quickness and flexibility and the ability to be comfortable in that (seemingly chaotic) environment.

Then on the far end of this spectrum is the sort of thing raised by Heart of Darkness or Apocalypse Now: following the guerrilla war analogy, at what point in response to this do your "methods become unsound"?

On the pregame show for the Iron Bowl, Phil told Eli "Coach Saban wants his players to react rather than think. Gus Malzahn wants to make the defenders think. Football is a game of reaction rather than thinking." I don't have enough football knowledge to figure out the way to stop it.

You mentioned Leach's air raid offense having numerous options. That is why he used "Four Verticals."

 

[stlimprov]

On the pregame show for the Iron Bowl, Phil told Eli "Coach Saban wants his players to react rather than think. Gus Malzahn wants to make the defenders think. Football is a game of reaction rather than thinking." I don't have enough football knowledge to figure out the way to stop it.

You mentioned Leach's air raid offense having numerous options. That is why he used "Four Verticals."

Yes, in both cases at the moment of action one needs to be able to react, which may be just being able to make decisions very quickly and trust the decision making process. I'm wondering if what we're seeing isn't variance in schemes which require different types of decision making skills.

Love Chris Brown and Smart Football. My point was that while the two offenses would appear on one level to be different (passing vs. running), it can be argued that they share the same basic philosophy, which is to emphasize a different sort of decision making process in a way that puts the defense in a situation of cognitive chaos.

Everything is chaos until you are at ease with the systems particular patterns.

 

[47Wins]

OK, look, you've posted three times in some seven years of membership, and the only two in recent times have been snarky posts defending Oklahoma. I've never understood opposing fans posting only after victories, but whatever. That said, we've been here discussing this for a long time and you're adding nothing to the discussion, so either add something worthwhile or stop typing.

My response to the remarks was not intended to be "snarky", nor was I particularly defending OU. In fact I didn't mention OU. The conversation is about whether UA should keep on keeping on or adapt their style of play to changes in the game.

The poster I responded to seems to think that if a team doesn't play according to the image of the game in his mind then they are "sissies". It's simply a matter of adapting and giving your team the best opportunity to win. For years OU was wishbone football, another gimmick. When we first started running the bone we killed people. Gradually teams figured out how to defend the bone and it lost it's effectiveness. OU didn't stand around saying it wasn't fair to stack the box to kill the run, we went out and found another offense that could exploit the weakness of the opponents. Currently OU has changed to a 3/4 specifically aimed at the other teams in our conference, why?? because our first goal is winning the conference.(yes I know, it didn't work this year).

I see Alabama as this great behemoth of huge immovable linemen and thick necked running backs that can run through a brick wall. I would continue that course until it becomes untenable, then I would adapt to the current need. UA will end up 10-2 and consider it a down year. Unfortunately I haven't seen UA make any effort to adapt to changes in the game and sooner rather than later it will cost you. I believe that your current identity still gives you the best chance of success in your conference, but a time is coming when that will no longer be the case.

One of my favorite quotes is by Mark Cuban, "work like there is someone out there working 24 hours a day trying to take it away from you". There are other very capable coaches out there spending untold hours scheming to beat UA's style of play and they will do it. I see no other option than to adapt and evolve or learn to live with 9-3, 10-2.