I agree. But the doing it correctly is the part I'd probably struggle with. But I've actually done it before. But this particular situation here I don't think I'd handle right. So I don't.
How is the church (Christian Church) suppose to operate without tithes?
- Thread starter Bamabuzzard
- Start date
-
HELLO AGAIN, Guest! We are back, live! We're still doing some troubleshooting and maintenance to fix a few remaining issues but everything looks stable now (except front page which we're working on over next day or two) Thanks for your patience and support! MUCH appreciated! --Brett (BamaNation) if you see any problems - please post them in the Troubleshooting board!
Not in every church. If this bothers you as it does me, maybe it is time to find another church.
If you approach a brother honestly, sincerely, and in the right manner (see referenced scripture) in order to tell them of a behavior that you believe is sinful and that brother does not treat your approach in the same manner, then that brother is sinning in his reaction to you if nothing else.
And the problem, in the specific case referenced, is not that they simply aren't giving enough. The problem is their attitude that leads to that action. That attitude is what makes the action a sin. Choosing not to give, for whatever reason, is not a sin in and of itself. However, if the attitude (or heart, or desire) that leads to the action is one that is damaging to the church, divisive to church, or contradictory to your responsibilities as a Christian then that action does become a sin, because of the sinful attitude.
If a brother approaches you in such a manner because they believe your attitude towards giving, for whatever reason, is sinful and you laugh at him and walk away, then you have most likely sinned twice over.
If a brother approaches you the way he should to address what he perceives as a sin, then you have a responsibility as a Christian to either address or alleviate that brothers concern. Either you change your behavior, explain your behavior so that the brother understands and his perception is changed, or you end up taking it to the church to decide. Doing anything else is wrong.
Do we live life as God, or as a humans? Such is life. We are humans first, created this way by God. To fail to take that imperfection into account is to fail. You can console yourself with this if you want to, but you will still have failed.
It doesn't bother me that bad. There are problems in every church. Big ones, small ones and those in between.There is a need for my family in our current church. We've been able to start a Bible study that many people had been wanting for a long time but no one wanted to take the responsibility to do so. We've been able to use our talents God has given us to serve through our church and make a difference. In serving, God has in turn blessed us so much. I know we're in the right place at this time.
Whether or not we can live perfectly has nothing to do with it. My statements on confession and addressing sin are based purely on scripture. I claim neither authority nor opinion over those statements.
In fact, the reason that scripture addresses, and makes necessary, both confession and the addressing of each others sins is because we are ALL imperfect.
Paul Washer, a very controversial preacher to modern day American churches, says that churches cannot deal with sin in the church anymore in American churches due to taking on worldly politically correct views and attitudes. He said even though the bible (same verses you've posted) gives a process in how to deal with sin amongst believers. But he said watch what happens when the church tries to deal with sin in the church with a church member.
This is my point, and it reflects reality. We have enjoyed the fruits of our labor as we have "grown", but that growth comes with a huge price tag - hubris.
I
It's On A Slab
Guest
The whole concept of tithing is nebulous in and of itself. It comes from the Old Testament, and isn't even mentioned A.D. Certainly not in the red letters of the NT.
But a church is a business and is always interested in more $$$ in the collection plate.
Agreed, and I support asking for more if more is needed. But to use guilt or accusation of sin to accomplish that is pretty sad.
we are studying Crazy Love in our Sunday morning class. Not a bad book. A little over the top in some ways, but dead on in others.
I have not read all the posts, but I will add my two cents. The New Testament teaches the idea of giving and giving generously out of whatever amount you are blessed with. It does not teach the idea of a strict 10% tithe, however.
First of all, the tithe is not ever referred to at all in the New Testament. All references are in the Old Testament. While Abraham gave a tithe like offering prior to the giving of the law, it is never called a tithe, and the practice seems connected to the Jewish law.
In the New Testament, we see a difference teaching on the matter:
1 As Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. 2 He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. 3 “Truly I tell you,†he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. 4 All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.â€Â
Notice that the two copper coins were not a strict 10%. It was actually a very small amount of money, but it says that it was all she had to live on. What was more important then the amount she gave was the attitude and faith she displayed in giving it. The rich gave out of their abundance, which is easy to do. Jesus knew that.
2 Corinthians 8 has provides perhaps the strongest model for Biblical giving. The point is generosity, not to be stingy. These Christians were eager to give what they could, beyond what they thought they were financially able to do. Again, the Lord awarded their faithfulness.
1 And now, brothers and sisters, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches. 2 In the midst of a very severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity. 3 For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own, 4 they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the Lord’s people.
For further reading
The Tithing Debate - Is tithing really a biblical command for christians?
Tithing is Unscriptural Under the New Covenant - L. Ray Smith
First of all, the tithe is not ever referred to at all in the New Testament. All references are in the Old Testament. While Abraham gave a tithe like offering prior to the giving of the law, it is never called a tithe, and the practice seems connected to the Jewish law.
In the New Testament, we see a difference teaching on the matter:
1 As Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. 2 He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. 3 “Truly I tell you,†he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. 4 All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.â€Â
Notice that the two copper coins were not a strict 10%. It was actually a very small amount of money, but it says that it was all she had to live on. What was more important then the amount she gave was the attitude and faith she displayed in giving it. The rich gave out of their abundance, which is easy to do. Jesus knew that.
2 Corinthians 8 has provides perhaps the strongest model for Biblical giving. The point is generosity, not to be stingy. These Christians were eager to give what they could, beyond what they thought they were financially able to do. Again, the Lord awarded their faithfulness.
1 And now, brothers and sisters, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches. 2 In the midst of a very severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity. 3 For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own, 4 they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the Lord’s people.
For further reading
The Tithing Debate - Is tithing really a biblical command for christians?
Tithing is Unscriptural Under the New Covenant - L. Ray Smith
My opinion is that this is at least partly related to the big church thing. I've seen this play out several times.
Situation 1: Person left her husband, and was living with her boyfriend. Kids involved. Elders approached her, and confronted the whole cohabitation thing. Of course, having rarely had conversations with her before about anything else, she scoffed at the idea, and kept doing what she wanted. They confronted her again, this time, with her parents who also attended the church. Since she already threw up that barrier, there was no breaking through.
Situation 2: I had probably six friends at my old church that I'd call "close." One of them was a career ladder guy. He was an accountant at a big four firm, and was climbing the ladder. During the busy time, he was working probably 90 hours a week or more. He had a two year old at the time. Nothing "sinful" necessarily about that.
But, his wife was talking to my wife, and she just broke down, bawling about how she never sees her husband. The talk got deeper, and my wife found out that even when he was home, he never talked to the wife, and never interacted with the kid. He would work 90 hours a week, come home, and play Xbox, watch TV, or get on the Internet and never talk to his family.
So, myself and two other friends "kidnapped" him one night and went to get coffee, came back to our house, and we talked to him about it. He broke down himself, and talked about being so mentally exhausted when he got home from work, but that he was working toward a better life for them. At the end of the conversation, he committed himself to working less and spending more time with his family. He ended up quitting that job a few weeks later, and went to work with another guy at church who ran his own business that focused on business management. His pay went down a little, but he was working 35-40 hour weeks some, and would occasionally work 60 hour weeks during busy season. But, he has said many times that his family is much better off for it.
Had the elders who didn't know him well been the ones that confronted him, nothing likely would have happened. Some might not really say that was "sinful" but I think the same thing applies. We could do that because we knew him very well. Elders and preachers often don't know "their flock" very well. For any elders and preachers out there, I don't mean that about you necessarily - just where I've been involved.
2 Corinthians 9:7 "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."
2 Corinthians 8:12 "For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have."
God wants you to give if you want to. Even if the thirtysomething wealthy crowd that mentioned gave, even though they didn't desire to, God is not interested in that, according to scripture. I know blessings come from giving, and I know God touches finances when you've given in hard times. I'm not disputing that. But God is interested in what's going on in your heart, not piles of money in the offering plate. He's also not interested in you stretching yourself thin, or breaking your family, just to please him. He will test your faith, yes, but I wouldn't just do things because I merely "thought" He wanted me to. You know when God has personally told you to do something. Either way, people should want to give, but we are living in an increasingly stingy society (including me at times), that don't want to give more than they have to. The modern church will only survive here and there. The Crystal Cathedrals of the world, and the those trying to go beyond their means, simply won't make it.
2 Corinthians 8:12 "For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have."
God wants you to give if you want to. Even if the thirtysomething wealthy crowd that mentioned gave, even though they didn't desire to, God is not interested in that, according to scripture. I know blessings come from giving, and I know God touches finances when you've given in hard times. I'm not disputing that. But God is interested in what's going on in your heart, not piles of money in the offering plate. He's also not interested in you stretching yourself thin, or breaking your family, just to please him. He will test your faith, yes, but I wouldn't just do things because I merely "thought" He wanted me to. You know when God has personally told you to do something. Either way, people should want to give, but we are living in an increasingly stingy society (including me at times), that don't want to give more than they have to. The modern church will only survive here and there. The Crystal Cathedrals of the world, and the those trying to go beyond their means, simply won't make it.
I heard some church had demanded copies of people's W-2's before granting them membership. I suppose to see if they were going to tithe according to the rules. I would tell a church that demanded that from me to take a hike.
I won't bash churches over tithing because they do have to survive and pay the bills. If churches do not grow in membership and continue to reach out to the community and draw in new members, they will eventually cease to exist or have trouble keeping an effective pastor and staff.
Despite the church bashing which is usually manifested through a limited and very narrow line of thinking, they serve a very worthwhile service in communities through charity, battered women's shelters, volunteerism (Katrina, for example), etc. Without churches, I'd envision societal breakdown. Some of us do not have it in us to behave without a little reminder.
Maybe that's why government and its minions don't generally favor churches - they provide competition.
I won't bash churches over tithing because they do have to survive and pay the bills. If churches do not grow in membership and continue to reach out to the community and draw in new members, they will eventually cease to exist or have trouble keeping an effective pastor and staff.
Despite the church bashing which is usually manifested through a limited and very narrow line of thinking, they serve a very worthwhile service in communities through charity, battered women's shelters, volunteerism (Katrina, for example), etc. Without churches, I'd envision societal breakdown. Some of us do not have it in us to behave without a little reminder.
Maybe that's why government and its minions don't generally favor churches - they provide competition.
It is a much better known fact that humans who fear no consequences behave poorly.
There is quite a gulf between the concepts of rejecting church and fearing no consequences.
Trending content
Latest threads
-
ESPN: Congress wants info on NCAA letting players bet- Started by TideFans Reporter
- Replies: 0
-
ESPN: Wetzel: Louisiana Gov. made finding next LSU coach harder
- Started by TideFans Reporter
- Replies: 0
-
-
ESPN: ASU QB Leavitt to have season-ending surgery
- Started by TideFans Reporter
- Replies: 0