I'm an aTm aggie: Our up tempo no huddle throw it around offense...

[bobmack12champs]

don't bank too much on what you see in the spring (controlled scrimmage) game. As a rule, it's just the 15th scheduled practice of the spring, a lot of show for the fans. The Ducks thought they would wear down LSU but you see who won in the end.
Oh, by the way, welcome to one of the best sites you'll find and come back......

 

[CrimsonProf]

As well as the fact that contact on a QB or WR is all but forbidden in the NFL. It literally makes financial sense to pass all the time and run sparingly.

True enough, but the offensive transition had been under way for years before the rules changes.

I think our offense is well-balanced, but the air raid will never consistently win championships as long as you have teams like Alabama and LSU playing blue collar football up front.

 

[rammerjammer69]

Another big issue with the 'run & shoot' style offenses is practice. In order to run any offense well you have to spend the majority of your practice time in it. So most A&M practices their defense will be spread out defending the pass, making them susceptible to big 300lb road grater OL and running it right up the middle. There's no way for them to effectively simulate teams like us, LSU, etc grinding it out. Sure they'll run our plays in practice, but you can't duplicate the cumulative effect of it over 4 quarters with practice limitations today. Also up tempo offenses tend to do much better against marginal teams with average to weak defensive depth. Against teams with a lot of talented defensive players (especially in the secondary) they usually don't fare very well.

It's a good point that the spread style offenses offenses have only worked in the SEC with 'supermen' QB's. I'd point out though that the Florida's '06 team won it more with their defense-they weren't running a true spread with Leak at QB. In '08 we took Florida and Tebow into the 4th qtr of the SECCG without much elite talent on defense or offense. Then in '10, *U was quite possibly the luckiest team in history and without our lack of secondary depth and Barron's injury, they wouldn't have beat us. So you can say the spread has won in the SEC and won NCs, but it's been far from dominant and I'd consider it more of an anomaly.

 

[tidefan39817]

HSV, it may not work, but you just listed three NC teams from the SEC who ran it.

true he named UF and TSDTR as two examples of teams having short term success with a superman QB who usually made up 50% or more of the offense. In TSDTR's case their free agent QB was over 60% of the offense. but the point is what happened to the teams after the superman QB left? Meyer developed health problems and Gus Mahlzan (sp) took a $650k paycut to get out of town. compare that to what has happened at Bama since Saban took over.

 

[pluckngrit]

I graduated from texas a&m and I'm very excited we are in the SEC. So I just watched our spring game and I'm interested to see from experienced SEC fans like yourselves what you think about our plan. Our plan is to try to get into a track meet type games. In the spring game the QB did not line up under center 1 time and did not huddle 1 time. The average time between plays is about 20 seconds. The offense is going to be like Oklahoma State and West Virginia last year. Try to run as many offensive plays as fast as possible to tire out the DL and LB's and keep the defense from substituting and giving presnap looks. The hope is that given only 3 days to prepare it will be difficult to stop. One of my main concerns however is how does our defense get prepared to face the offenses in the SEC when all they have seen in the spring is the hurry up spread.

I think it's worth a try. The alabama defense and LSU defense will be formidable regardless of the offensive scheme they face just curious how you think it will work against the rest of the SEC.

two words your team will need to learn and learn quickly. ball control!

 

[UnNFormedFan]

My question is in an up tempo spread it around no substitute type of offense, aren't the offensive players on the field the same amount of time as the defense you are planning on wearing out? If they are not substituting their offensive players and just trying to gas the defense, I don 't see them lasting as long as the conditioned defenses that seem to run in the SEC.

I don't know I may not be seeing the big picture but that is my thoughts on it.

 

[mdb-tpet]

One interesting thing I noticed last year about LSU was how many points they scored on defense or defense related plays. So, you can count on them being ball hawks and turning some passes/fumbles into points. The more you sling the ball, the more they have time to figure out your passing routes and jump on them for a quick defensive score.

 

[MOAN]

If the hurry up, pass happy offense has all the right ingredients it can upset a Bama or LSU from time to time especially if one of those teams are bringing in mass new talent and you catch them early in the season. It almost happened to Bama in '10 against Arkansas and did the next week against S. Car. The problem that these types offenses generally have is they will play great, especially in a rivalry or against a much hyped team and then fall flat against a lesser team down the road, usually right after a big upset. Why?

Well I think that is because with a pass happy team you have to be in sync with timing, route running, passing, blocking and snapping every game. Its so much harder to do consistently as say line up and play smash mouth run the ball offense and mix in play action passing every week. Of course when you have an inexperienced QB and receivers it is even more tough so those kinds of offenses pretty much dictate having a pro type QB and receivers.

The Mannings, Cam Newtons and Tebows don't come around very often and coach Saban as well as most SEC coaches know this. But if they ever acquire one of those types of QB's it would'nt surprise me if they exploited their talents and go pass happy. Sumlin may have one and we have yet to see him. But if he don't then he may never get the chance to find one if that offense falls flat right out of the box. If the SEC makes A&M look silly the first year and he has to go recruiting for that type of talent that can run that type of offense he may be gone before it comes to fruition.

In the SEC defense wins championships even if you have a great offense. Even though Auburns defense gave up big numbers in '10 their defense flat out shut offenses down in the second halves of their games. If I was Sumlin I would put the best talent I have on defense and go from there. Then if anyway possible I would play ball control offense and hope to make it to the 4th quarter with a chance. Only then would I pull out the stops and take chances.

 

[mittman]

 

[MS TN NC Tidefan]

The Aggies should probably run their hurry-up spread for a year or two. They probably have enough talent to win against the lower tier SEC teams with that offense. But they need to recruit for a pro-style offense and learn that defense is the priority. If they try to stick with the spread, then I believe they lose the benefit of joining the SEC should give them in recruiting. If I was Sumlin, I would be recruiting with the message of "Come play in the best league, and we are going to prepare you for the NFL by switching to a pro-style offense and by playing against the best competition."

If they don't make the change in offensive, then they might as well have joined the WAC. They won't be positioned to compete for the top consistently. And with their area to recruit and their tradition, they should be able to compete at the top level.

My opinion of the spread is it is a high school offense that is favorable when there is a good quarterback with running back capabilities. I'm not saying it's not fun to watch, but when you have the other team line up and smash it down your throat for a while; cute gets old really quick.

 

[b2v4ua]

My point was that both won with a once-in-a-generation QB. When Meyer lost that QB, his butt quit and he left. When Malzahn lost that QB, he ran. I swear, I don't understand the infatuation with that offense. It will only take you so far - unless you have a Tebow or a Cam. Otherwise, you're perpetually stuck at the 9-10 game level (if you're lucky). I see nothing in Meyer's brief success with Tebow or Malzahn's with Cam to inspire me to predict great things for another team running a similar offense in the SEC. I predicted that the success would be short-lived and would flame out when the supermen QBs left. I do know one thing for sure and that's anyone waiting for CNS to run it, as a base offense, better not hold his breath...

I totally agree with you on this ^^^^^^^^, also The Barn is getting away from this offense and is suppose to be going back to power football this season. All I got to say is "DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS" so run it all you want to aTm.

 

[uafan4life]

4life, Florida won twice.

I think his point is that almost any team in the country would be happy with the results that Florida (and most likely Auburn) got using the spread. Whether it works consistently or not who cares when you have two crystal footballs as a result. Most teams in the country are probably ok with having a fun offense that if you catch lightning in a bottle can win the national championship.

The problem is that it's simply an incorrect analogy.

Florida was not running an up-tempo, pass-happy offense when Florida won those titles. Really, the barn wasn't either. While Malzhan's offense is definitely unorthodox it is nowhere near what Sumlin's offense is. I think you two are confusing "spread" with "pass-happy" and "up-tempo" and that simply is very wrong. And, while Florida was running an offense based upon Meyer's "patented" spread, when they won those titles the offense he ran was vastly different from the offense he ran at Utah and even what he ran his first year at Florida.





Let's look at some actual numbers, shall we?





Here is what Sumlin's offense, in a nutshell, looked like last year (pay special attention to the offensive plays per game):

Houston 2011:
682 Passing Attempts versus 420 Rushing Attempts.
6301 Passing Yards versus 2086 Rushing Yards.
An Average of 78.7 Offensive Plays per Game.


Let's compare that to the barn's offense in 2010 and Florida's offenses in 2008 and 2006:

barn 2010:
296 Passing Attempts versus 652 Rushing Attempts.
3002 Passing Yards versus 3987 Rushing Yards.
An Average of 67.7 Offensive Plays per Game.

Florida 2008:
329 Passing Attempts versus 545 Rushing Attempts.
2995 Passing Yards versus 3236 Rushing Yards.
An Average of 62.4 Offensive Plays per Game.

Florida 2006:
399 Passing Attempts versus 476 Rushing Attempts.
3305 Passing Yards versus 2240 Rushing Yards.
An Average of 62.5 Offensive Plays per Game.


Well, now, there's a huge difference in offensive style and, especially, offensive tempo between Houston of last year and those teams you referenced. Of course, those are - according to you guys - similar offenses. So, let's compare them to a more smash-mouth style of offense like Alabama's last two National Championship teams in 2011 and 2009:

Alabama 2011:
357 Passing Attempts versus 508 Rushing Attempts.
2797 Passing Yards versus 2788 Rushing Yards.
An Average of 66.5 Offensive Plays per Game.

Alabama 2009:
346 Passing Attempts versus 601 Rushing Attempts.
2631 Passing Yards versus 3011 Rushing Yards.
An Average of 67.6 Offensive Plays per Game.



Wow, that's interesting. Comparing Houston last year to those barn and Florida teams mentioned as well as the last two Bama NC teams shows some interesting results:
Only 1 team had more passing attempts than rushing attempts: Houston 2011.
Only 3 teams had more passing yards than rushing yards: Houston 2011, Alabama 2011, and Florida 2006.
Only one team averaged more than 68 offensive plays per game: Houston 2011.

It seems that the closest of those SEC teams' offenses to Houston's offense of last year, in terms of tempo - which is pretty much the whole point of what you were attempting to rebut with the barn and Florida references, is the barn from 2010. Even so, Houston averaged 11 more plays per game than the barn. Heck, Alabama's 2009 offense was only 0.1 play per game less "up-tempo" than the barn's "super-fast-spread" of 2010.

You should also notice the pass/rush production ratio percentages (the percentage that the total passing yards is greater than the total rushing yards):
Houston 2011: 202.06%
Alabama 2011: 0.32%
barn 2010: -24.71%
Alabama 2009: -12.62%
Florida 2008: -7.45%
Florida 2006: 47.54%

All of those SEC teams mentioned had a fairly balanced ratio. Only Florida in 2006 is an outlier but even that pales in comparison to Houston in 2011. Houston's offense was very, very pass-happy. None of those SEC offenses were even close to being pass happy. Of course, there is another offense in the SEC that we all consider to be pass-happy and that might make for a better comparison: Arkansas. Petrino's a pass-happy guy who runs an up-tempo offense, right? And last year, right before the season, he lost his best running back (by far) for the season. That would have likely made his offense even more pass-happy than normal, so the 2011 Arkansas offense should make for an excellent comparison. Let's see what those numbers are:

Arkansas 2011:
471 Passing Attempts versus 412 Rushing Attempts.
3909 Passing Yards versus 1786 Rushing Yards.
An Average of 67.9 Offensive Plays per Game.
A Pass/Run Production Ratio of 118.87%.

While Arkansas is definitely closer to what Sumlin likes to run it is still nowhere near as pass-happy (or at least pass dependent) nor as up-tempo as what Sumlin likes to run. Houston last year averaged over 10 more plays per game than the closest thing the SEC had last year to his style of offense.




If Sumlin tries to run an offense at Texas A&M that is anything like what he ran at Houston then the Aggie fans had better get ready to see a lot of 40+ point tallies on the scoreboard under their opponents' names.

 

[Jon]

I hear "pass happy" and SEC and think Kentucky under Hal Mumme, we all know how well that worked out and they did have a QB in Tim Couch. Spurriers fun and gun only worked when they had a dominant rusher and a very, very good to great D. Even though it was pass happy they still had more balance than what I see from Sumlin

I would be interesting to see the stats from those two programs (UAfan, feel like putting this together?)

 

[uafan4life]

I hear "pass happy" and SEC and think Kentucky under Hal Mumme, we all know how well that worked out and they did have a QB in Tim Couch. Spurriers fun and gun only worked when they had a dominant rusher and a very, very good to great D. Even though it was pass happy they still had more balance than what I see from Sumlin

I would be interesting to see the stats from those two programs (UAfan, feel like putting this together?)

Maybe later. The stats I got were easy to get from cfbstats.com and espn.com. Cfbstats.com has stats back through 2007 so I had to get the Florida 2006 stats from espn.com. Espn.com only goes back to 2004. So, getting stats for, say, Hal Mumme's best year(s) and Spurrier's best year(s) at Florida would require a bit of digging.

It might not be that difficult to find, though. All you need for the stats I was using is a team's total Games Played, Passing Attempts, Rushing Attempts, Passing Yards, and Rushing Yards for that particular season.

 

[JeffAtlanta]

This type of offense will work pretty well against many of the SEC teams, but against the top tier (especially Alabama & LSU) it will end up like the Arkansas & UGA offenses when they went up against top tier defenses.

 

[uafan4life]

I hear "pass happy" and SEC and think Kentucky under Hal Mumme, we all know how well that worked out and they did have a QB in Tim Couch. Spurriers fun and gun only worked when they had a dominant rusher and a very, very good to great D. Even though it was pass happy they still had more balance than what I see from Sumlin

I would be interesting to see the stats from those two programs (UAfan, feel like putting this together?)

Maybe later. The stats I got were easy to get from cfbstats.com and espn.com. Cfbstats.com has stats back through 2007 so I had to get the Florida 2006 stats from espn.com. Espn.com only goes back to 2004. So, getting stats for, say, Hal Mumme's best year(s) and Spurrier's best year(s) at Florida would require a bit of digging.

It might not be that difficult to find, though. All you need for the stats I was using is a team's total Games Played, Passing Attempts, Rushing Attempts, Passing Yards, and Rushing Yards for that particular season.

Ok, after saying it might be easy I decided to do a quick Google search. It wasn't nearly as easy as was getting the more recent statistics but still only took about 5 minutes or so. Interestingly enough, Florida's archives apparently has at least a pdf file or two that is infected with a virus, including the one for the 1996 season stats.

Ok, so here are the stats for the 1996 Florida offense and the 1998 Kentucky offense. I picked the 1996 Florida offense because that was when they won the National Championship. I picked the 1998 Kentucky offense because that was their best season, at 7-5 overall, being led by Tim Couch at QB who then entered the draft and was the number 1 overall pick.

Florida 1996:
412 Passing Attempts versus 442 Rushing Attempts.
4007 Passing Yards versus 2378 Rushing Yards.
An Average of 65.7 Offensive Plays per Game.
A Pass/Run Production Ratio of 68.50%.

Kentucky 1998:
622 Passing Attempts versus 369 Rushing Attempts.
4870 Passing Yards versus 1468 Rushing Yards.
An Average of 82.6 Offensive Plays per Game.
A Pass/Run Production Ratio of 231.74%.


Apparently even Spurrier's Fun-n-Gun offense, at the height of its success at Florida, wasn't any more "pass-happy", pass dependent, or up-tempo than any of those recent National Championship winning SEC offenses.

Kentucky, however, appears to be pretty close. Now, Texas A&M should be able to recruit much better talent than Kentucky. However, Kentucky's best team (by far) with its most productive offense being led by a number 1 overall NFL Draft pick at Quarterback was only able to muster a 7-5 record. Hal Mumme's offense was able to pull off a few upsets, including one against a fairly mediocre Alabama team, but was prone to losing at lest a couple games every season that they should have won.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


I haven't looked up the stats every year but I can say with virtual certainty that no team has ever won the SEC Championship Game (1992 to present) while doing either of these things:
1) Relying on the passing game to provide 2/3rds or more of their total offensive production, or
2) Running an up-tempo offense that averages 70 or more offensive plays per game.

I see absolutely no reason why that trend would not continue into the future, barring rules changes.

Sumlin, based on his past offenses, seems to want to try to do both of those things.

 

[MBA_99]

I love this thread.

Go watch the 2011 Iron Bowl. Auburn was in the same situation. Decent OL, receivers, QB, great RB. Mediocre defense. They probably correctly strategized to beat Bama by outscoring them on offense. Didn't work for two key reasons:

1) Entropy (chaos) always prevails in the universe. It is easier to disrupt a play than to execute it.
2) Tired Defense: It takes a lot more energy to cover a guy than to get open. A receiver can time his breathing and his sprints, but a DB has to sprint harder and breathe out of rhythm to keep up with him. Similarly it takes more to push an O-lineman than to run block a defender. (Not more SKILL, but more ENERGY expended.) So a defense needs more rest and gets tired faster than an offense. So a team with a fast-paced offense leaves its defense on the field for a much higher percentage of the game, and for a longer time (number of minutes, snaps) before resting. The balanced team has an advantage.

 

[uafan4life]

At this point I'm very curious as to what 257WBY and RollTide1224 have to say about the past few posts. :biggrin2:

 

[Bamabuzzard]

The balanced offensive attack has less "holes" in it by design. It doesn't expose your defense to constantly having to be on the field. It doesn't expose your offense to being one QB injury away from kissing your season goodbye. The balanced attack allows for a "second option" when option one isn't working. For example, like someone said, when the passing game is having a "bad day" what do you do? Hope to god you don't get upset by a Iowa St? A balanced attack can turn around and start handing the ball off with a legitimate running game in hopes to get something going.

This isn't rocket surgery folks. :wink:

 

[257WBY]

At this point I'm very curious as to what 257WBY and RollTide1224 have to say about the past few posts. :biggrin2:

You win. I just don't happen to agree that the recent Gator teams along with Auburn were that much different from the basic idea that TAMU will run. At least the offenses were a lot more open than Alabama or LSU. The one advantage TAMU may have along these lines is that Texas is full of talented QB's to run their system. We'll also get a better look at this type offense this season with the Big 12 additions plus Ole Miss. I still have to point out that Alabama went away from Trent and more to the pass to beat LSU for the title.