Instacart fires employees for unionizing

B1GTide

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This is gonna get messy.
JMO, and I am generally pro-union, but if you take a job as a gig worker you accept the fact that it is a job without benefits. Unionizing destroys the business model, and you now have no job. So I have no sympathy for these folks or the business. The business is taking advantage of people, paying them less than a living wage. The people took the job knowing what they were taking and are willing to burn it all down to get more.
 
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Cruloc

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JMO, and I am generally pro-union, but if you take a job as a gig worker you accept the fact that it is a job without benefits. Unionizing destroys the business model, and you now have no job. So I have no sympathy for these folks or the business. The business is taking advantage of people, paying them less than a living wage. The people took the job knowing what they were taking and are willing to burn it all down to get more.
I agree. Still gonna get messy.
 
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uafanataum

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So how do gig employees get health insurance if it is a job without benefits? I do not mind them not getting paid vacation. As a gig employee you can take a vacation any time you want.
 

CrimsonNagus

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So how do gig employees get health insurance if it is a job without benefits? I do not mind them not getting paid vacation. As a gig employee you can take a vacation any time you want.
You mean the ACA open marketplace isn’t good enough. Imagine that, even the “affordable” plans are not affordable. One day this country will wake up and realize that healthcare should be a guaranteed right not a privilege.
 

CrimsonNagus

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JMO, and I am generally pro-union, but if you take a job as a gig worker you accept the fact that it is a job without benefits. Unionizing destroys the business model, and you now have no job. So I have no sympathy for these folks or the business. The business is taking advantage of people, paying them less than a living wage. The people took the job knowing what they were taking and are willing to burn it all down to get more.
Couldn’t you say that about any job though? People who take a job at McDonalds for $10 an hour know what they are getting into but that doesn’t stop them from demanding more. All these delivery type businesses and things like Lyft and Uber only exist to make the owner wealthy on the backs of their poorly paid peasants. I despise all these companies for how they treat there employees.

Quite frankly, I’m just sick and tired of the top 1% in this country. They hoard 99% of the wealthy and don’t give a crap about anyone else. They will be the true downfall of this country, not the GOP or Democrats. They would rather see this country crumble than lift it up.
 

uafanataum

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You mean the ACA open marketplace isn’t good enough. Imagine that, even the “affordable” plans are not affordable. One day this country will wake up and realize that healthcare should be a guaranteed right not a privilege.
I do not know alot about healthcare right now. Most of my coworkers get theirs through my job and would not have health insurance if my job did not help out. I get mine because i am a veteran so i never have to worry about my employer. But i have gotten a bill before i was a veteran or had an employer that helped with insurance and it was scary. I was just wondering how gig employees do it. I am not familiar with the "ACA open marketplace."
 

4Q Basket Case

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You mean the ACA open marketplace isn’t good enough. Imagine that, even the “affordable” plans are not affordable. One day this country will wake up and realize that healthcare should be a guaranteed right not a privilege.
Somebody’s gotta pay for it.

Somewhere, somehow, whether it’s a direct tax or payroll deduction, or folded into something else, or a lottery, or some other subterfuge, the buildings, equipment, staff, pharma and R&D all cost money....into the Billions, if not Trillions of dollars.

The question is whether you choose to pay those costs (and if so, how), or choose to tolerate deteriorating buildings and equipment, slower to non-existent advances, and deteriorating quality of staff.

You will have one or the other.

If the ACA doesn’t work for you (BTW — it would work if the mandate for participation by all people — read: young, healthy people — hadn’t been removed by Trump), what is your suggestion?
 
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uafanataum

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Somebody’s gotta pay for it.

Somewhere, somehow, whether it’s a direct tax or payroll deduction, or folded into something else, or a lottery, or some other subterfuge, the buildings, equipment, staff, pharma and R&D all cost money.

The question is whether you choose to pay those costs (and if so, how), or choose to tolerate deteriorating buildings and equipment, slower to non-existent advances, and deteriorating quality of staff.

You will have one or the other.

If the ACA doesn’t work for you (BTW — it would work if the mandate for participation by all people — read: young, healthy people — hadn’t been removed by Trump), what is your suggestion?
There was some business in the state of Washington ( I cannot think of it off the top of ny head) that raised the cost of all employees by making the lowest paid employees very well compensated. A couple of years later they are more profitable rather than less. It turns out well compensated employees are more productive.
 
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4Q Basket Case

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There was some business in the state of Washington ( I cannot think of it off the top of ny head) that raised the cost of all employees by making the lowest paid employees very well compensated. A couple of years later they are more profitable rather than less. It turns out well compensated employees are more productive.
I would get there from a slightly different angle, but I don’t dispute your conclusion.

Still, I’m not sure I see where the concept that employees who make more money are more productive, fits into paying for universal healthcare, which is what CrimsonNagus advocates..
 
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CrimsonNagus

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The pandemic has proven how broken our healthcare is in this country. All these people that have lost there jobs, ended up in the hospital for COVID, what do you think they are going to do when the bills start rolling in, for thousands and thousands of dollars. It’s pathetic that the only people that can truly afford healthcare in this country are the wealthy.

For many people, even those who have insurance, their first thought when needing medical attention is “can I afford a doctor/hospital visit right now.” I went to the ER for about 3 hours for a kidney stone last year and even after my co-pay of $250, I got billed for almost an additional $300 that insurance wouldn’t cover. So, I’m paying hundreds a month out of my pay checks, plus the copay, and still the blood sucking insurance devils refuse to cover all the cost. It is maddening that so many people think this is how it should be and are perfectly okay with this crappy system.

The reason staff, equipment, pharma and R&D cost so much is because the insurance companies artificially inflate the cost of everything in the healthcare system. If the insurance companies had never existed, those cost wouldn’t be as high as they are now.

Yes, I’m in favor of a payroll tax to fully fund a national healthcare system. When you walk into a hospital or doctor’s office, you shouldn’t have to bring a wallet. You get the care you need and go home, no bills flooding your mail box for months.

I don’t know all the answers. All I know is that I’m sick and tired of the current system, and I have never been without employer provided healthcare for more the 5-6 months in my working adult life (yes, I’m lucky). That is also why I’m so frustrated with the system. I see how much leaves my pay checks every year and how much we still have to pay in co-pays and deductibles and yet, on top of all that, we still get bills for stuff not covered completely. Enough is enough, I’m tired of helping insurance companies get wealthier and wealthier.

At the very least, if a NHS is never possible, insurance companies should be forced to cover 100% of everything beyond co-pays and deductibles. You should be able to walk into any doctor/hospital knowing exactly what it is going to cost. There shouldn’t be any mystery about it, pay your co-pay and your done.
 

JDCrimson

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The government should insure wages up to 25 and over 70. Everything in between should be part public and private options. If you opt for a public option you should pay your premium through your tax return.
 

uafanataum

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I would get there from a slightly different angle, but I don’t dispute your conclusion.

Still, I’m not sure I see where the concept that employees who make more money are more productive, fits into paying for universal healthcare, which is what CrimsonNagus advocates..
My reply was for employers to provide GOOD insurance universally. Not for universal insurance. You said essentially that you could pay for health insurance and have deteriorating buildings etc. (Or maybe i am misunderstanding you). I think that employers providing insurance along with other good benefits could motivate their employees to be productive enough to offset the costs incurred by the employer. I would argue that if instacart gave their employees what they are demanding that the employees would work so much harder that instacart would gain money rather than losing it by providing these benefits.
 

4Q Basket Case

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My reply was for employers to provide GOOD insurance universally. Not for universal insurance. You said essentially that you could pay for health insurance and have deteriorating buildings etc. (Or maybe i am misunderstanding you). I think that employers providing insurance along with other good benefits could motivate their employees to be productive enough to offset the costs incurred by the employer. I would argue that if instacart gave their employees what they are demanding that the employees would work so much harder that instacart would gain money rather than losing it by providing these benefits.
I may not have been clear.

I was replying to CrimsonNagus' statement that healthcare should be a right of all, not a privilege reserved to those who can pay for it.

Your observation is rooted in a micro-economic view -- the economics of the firm. I'm talking about macro-economics.

My position is that, at a macro-economic level, there is no free lunch. Or free cancer treatment. Or free knee replacement. Or free bypass surgery, etc., etc. ad infinitum.

There are lots of ways to skin the cat, but the bottom line is that someone, somewhere, somehow, will pay for it ("it" being healthcare, not necessarily an insurance premium). Or they won't and we'll have deterioration in the quality of healthcare, along with attendant increase in physical discomfort, economic drag from a larger population of sick people, and death rates.

Yeah...there's a reason economics is called the Dismal Science.
 
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4Q Basket Case

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.....

At the very least, if a NHS is never possible, insurance companies should be forced to cover 100% of everything beyond co-pays and deductibles. You should be able to walk into any doctor/hospital knowing exactly what it is going to cost. There shouldn’t be any mystery about it, pay your co-pay and your done.
An admirable desire. Two questions:

1. Who should determine what the co-pay and/or deductible should be?

2. Where should the insurance company get the money to cover the difference between the bill and the co-pay / deductible, however those might be determined?

I actually think the ACA, as originally envisioned, will work. You just have to have an enforced mandate whereby everybody has to have either private insurance, or a policy through an exchange. Then, there are subsidies for low income.

After some early fits and starts, it was actually working for everybody, including the insurance companies. Then the Trump administration blew up the individual mandate and the fundamental underpinnings fell away.
 
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Bamaro

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Somebody’s gotta pay for it.

Somewhere, somehow, whether it’s a direct tax or payroll deduction, or folded into something else, or a lottery, or some other subterfuge, the buildings, equipment, staff, pharma and R&D all cost money....into the Billions, if not Trillions of dollars.

The question is whether you choose to pay those costs (and if so, how), or choose to tolerate deteriorating buildings and equipment, slower to non-existent advances, and deteriorating quality of staff.

You will have one or the other.

If the ACA doesn’t work for you (BTW — it would work if the mandate for participation by all people — read: young, healthy people — hadn’t been removed by Trump), what is your suggestion?
Business taxes would be a good place to start. It would be somewhat of a wash for most businesses.
 
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CrimsonNagus

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An admirable desire. Two questions:

1. Who should determine what the co-pay and/or deductible should be?

2. Where should the insurance company get the money to cover the difference between the bill and the co-pay / deductible, however those might be determined?

I actually think the ACA, as originally envisioned, will work. You just have to have an enforced mandate whereby everybody has to have either private insurance, or a policy through an exchange. Then, there are subsidies for low income.

After some early fits and starts, it was actually working for everybody, including the insurance companies. Then the Trump administration blew up the individual mandate and the fundamental underpinnings fell away.
I don’t know, I’m not that smart. All I know is what we have to pay out of pocket even with insurance. Part of the problem is the prices the doctors and hospitals charge the insurance companies. Look at any hospital bill and the prices for things are outrageous. If prices were reasonable, insurers could easily cover 100%. I think they could anyway, insurers make billions in profits each year.

Anyway, I think I’ve highjacked this thread enough and will let it get back on track. I agree that Trump gutted the ACA but I don’t think it was perfect beforehand. People shouldn’t have to worry about health care and the out of pocket cost. My wife has had trouble sleeping for years but, refuses to go to a sleep study because it’s not full cover and the sleep machine is not full covered. She worries about the added cost it would cause us when we already live paycheck to paycheck. That’s just not how it should be in this country.
 
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B1GTide

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Medicine should be paid for by the government. Doctors and nurses should be employees of the government. The services should be paid for through taxation.

We need to end the idea that people should be allowed to get rich off of the suffering of humanity and begin to actually serve humanity.