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It's official - Russia enters Crimea

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

crimsonaudio said:
I'm not suggesting there are any clear answers, just that the whole point of the UN is to be able to mobilize for this sort of situation, but then they include bylaws that essentially neuter themselves.
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Any really decisive action under UN Charter Chapter VII (like the Korean War) would have to be adopted by UNSC. The Permanent Five have a veto. Russia is a P5 member.
The UN is powerless against a P5 member (something the John Birchers and the "Get us out of the UN" crowd would do well to remember.
 
Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Tidewater said:
Any really decisive action under UN Charter Chapter VII (like the Korean War) would have to be adopted by UNSC. The Permanent Five have a veto. Russia is a P5 member.
The UN is powerless against a P5 member (something the John Birchers and the "Get us out of the UN" crowd would do well to remember.
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I get what you're saying and it's a valid point, particularly if done in a huff and unilaterally. Also valid, though, is that the UN would have a difficult time enforcing anything if the US weren't ponying up over 20% of the financial costs. If the US along with Japan and even a third of the NATO countries were backed into a corner enough to choose leaving, the whole organization would fall like house of cards. If brinkmanship is your game, the threat of American/Western secession needs to be viable.
 
Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Tidewater said:
Any really decisive action under UN Charter Chapter VII (like the Korean War) would have to be adopted by UNSC. The Permanent Five have a veto. Russia is a P5 member.
The UN is powerless against a P5 member (something the John Birchers and the "Get us out of the UN" crowd would do well to remember.
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The Koch Brothers say "Thank you."
 
Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

bamachile said:
I get what you're saying and it's a valid point, particularly if done in a huff and unilaterally. Also valid, though, is that the UN would have a difficult time enforcing anything if the US weren't ponying up over 20% of the financial costs. If the US along with Japan and even a third of the NATO countries were backed into a corner enough to choose leaving, the whole organization would fall like house of cards. If brinkmanship is your game, the threat of American/Western secession needs to be viable.
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I believe that, if the US gave up its veto by leaving the UN entirely, you would suddenly find the organization to be reinvigorated. Lots of people around the world would suddenly care very deeply what the UN was doing and could do.
And, there are traitors on the United States Supreme Court who say that widespread international custom amounts to a treaty, and treaties trump the Constitution, therefor, we must do whatever the "international community says we have to do." Thus, if the UN Gen Assembly agreed that every country would cut their carbon emissions in half (or adopt sharia law, or ban the color crimson or whatever silly idea the "international community" chose), there are Quislings in the US who would go along because that would be international law, and the US would have to go along, member or not.
 
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Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

bamachile said:
IOW, Putin doesn't want to conquer Czechoslovakia, he just wants the Sudeten Germans to have the right to self-determination, free from their current oppressors.

Edit - no blue font due to cell phone
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I think that is exactly right. Not sure what to do about it. The Europeans are so squishy and we have no power to spare even if we wanted to. I would tell those eastern Ukrainians to get ready to change their "i"s back to "и"s and be happy about it.
Ukraine might be better off without Donetsk and Lugansk anyway. Think about the impact on Ukrainian domestic elections.
 
Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Tidewater said:
I think that is exactly right. Not sure what to do about it. The Europeans are so squishy and we have no power to spare even if we wanted to. I would tell those eastern Ukrainians to get ready to change their "i"s back to "и"s and be happy about it.
Ukraine might be better off without Donetsk and Lugansk anyway. Think about the impact on Ukrainian domestic elections.
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Europe needs to grow a pair and back some meaningful sanctions. But in all seriousness, I wonder if we would be doing even as little as we are if Russia had us where they have the Europeans concerning energy.
IMO, we should begin supplying some MPATS (man-portable anti-tank systems) to Ukraine. Give the Russians something to worry about.
 
Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Tidewater said:
I think that is exactly right. Not sure what to do about it. The Europeans are so squishy and we have no power to spare even if we wanted to. I would tell those eastern Ukrainians to get ready to change their "i"s back to "и"s and be happy about it.
Ukraine might be better off without Donetsk and Lugansk anyway. Think about the impact on Ukrainian domestic elections.
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That might be true over the very long haul, since the rest of Ukraine would definitely turn away from Russia and orient towards the west (boy, that's a mix). Problem is, on the short haul, the Donbas has most of the industrial capacity of Ukraine, which both Kiev and Moscow know...
 
Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Bamaro said:
Europe needs to grow a pair and back some meaningful sanctions. But in all seriousness, I wonder if we would be doing even as little as we are if Russia had us where they have the Europeans concerning energy.
IMO, we should begin supplying some MPATS (man-portable anti-tank systems) to Ukraine. Give the Russians something to worry about.
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Never heard the term MPATS, but I think that would be useful. The Javelin is a bad hombre. AT-4 ain't no slouch.
I understand the Europeans' position. Still wish they'd let Putin know that invading another country and carving it up is unacceptable. Appeasement did not work so well in 1936-39.
As for my plan (consider letting Donetsk and Lugansk go), I don't know if Putin would be satisfied with just that or whether it would simply whet his appetite and then he would go for Odessa and Transdnestria.
I'm afraid he will keep going until someone pushes back as hard as he is pushing.
 
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