Who's the better Tide QB? I know we shouldn't jump the gun win JPW still has another year, but...what the heck. I say Brodie.
JPW vs. Brodie Croyle
- Thread starter Ugobama
- Start date
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I won't compare John Parker to anyone until I see him complete his senior year... As far as I'm concerned, the ability is there - he just needs to make some serious changes to the way he thinks on the field. He could win as many games as he could lose - let's hope he's part of the reason we win the conference.
For starters, Croyle protected the football. As a senior, he only threw two interceptions in conference play, and lost only one fumble. Of those three turnovers, they led to zero points, as all came against Mississippi State in their territory.
Here is a legitimate question for you: What would our 2007 conference record have been had Wilson committed only three turnovers -- all wholly meaningless ones at that -- in the eight conference games?
I'll guarantee you this much, we wouldn't have been sitting at 4-4 and heading to Shreveport. We would have probably been in Atlanta, and I don't mean for the Peach Bowl either. We would have beaten Arkansas by a much larger margin, and we would have beaten LSU and Mississippi State, too.
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Obviosuly this is a moot point as you cant prove anything. But based on my amateur opinion at games it seemed Brodie could see the receiver coming put of his break way earlier than JPW. JPW held on to the ball too long, and had more time to throw.
Again, both had problems and anyone could nitpick them to death.
I don't know.They both throw off their back foot alot.JPW learned from BC.The main difference I see is BC could because of a better arm.JPW may get introduced to bench next yr (late) if we are having a similar yr as 07 was both record and his lack luster performance.so that being said Brodie :biggrin2:
We'll have to wait for JPW's senior season to see how it all shakes down, but I'll say this - if BC didn't have a cannon of an arm, he wouldn't be dressing out on Sundays.
If Danny Weurffel would have had any kind of arm he'd still be in the NFL. Arm strength means a lot. It can mean the difference of a player being on an NFL roster and not.
does jpw get the nod if he beats the barn this year? They both hold passing records i think because of todays college football, but our best quarterbacks are to come.
But of the two, they accomplished about the same. And to me if jpw can beat the cow college he should get the nod
But of the two, they accomplished about the same. And to me if jpw can beat the cow college he should get the nod
That all depends on how he plays during the game.
You know...you just KNOW...that he's likely to be under pressure most of the game. That's why our running game is going to have to step up and be consistant from the Clemson game all the way through, hopefully, a BCS BOWL game.
"Run up in the stands and hit they mama's in the mouth"
Brodie's arm got him the door in the NFL, but a strong arm will only get you so far.
I crack up when people say, for instance, "Jamarcus Russell can throw the ball 70 yards on one knee!" And that will come in handy when? You have to be able to read defenses, plain and simple. You have to make good decisions, plain and simple. And obviously, it doesn't hurt to have a good supporting cast. See Tom Brady and Payton Manning for examples of all three. Payton throws one of the ugliest balls in terms of velocity and spin, but he gets it there and it usually gets there accurately. Brady throws a beautiful ball and it gets there accurately and on time. Peyton doesn't have a cannon, but it gets there and it doesn't usually go to the other team.
On the other hand, Brett Favre throws as many interceptions as anyone I've ever seen. When he has a good supporting cast, he can rely on a good running game, or he can make things happen with his legs. He can also thread a ball through tighter spaces than most people, and that helps him.
To summarize my rambling, arm strength only gets you so far.
I crack up when people say, for instance, "Jamarcus Russell can throw the ball 70 yards on one knee!" And that will come in handy when? You have to be able to read defenses, plain and simple. You have to make good decisions, plain and simple. And obviously, it doesn't hurt to have a good supporting cast. See Tom Brady and Payton Manning for examples of all three. Payton throws one of the ugliest balls in terms of velocity and spin, but he gets it there and it usually gets there accurately. Brady throws a beautiful ball and it gets there accurately and on time. Peyton doesn't have a cannon, but it gets there and it doesn't usually go to the other team.
On the other hand, Brett Favre throws as many interceptions as anyone I've ever seen. When he has a good supporting cast, he can rely on a good running game, or he can make things happen with his legs. He can also thread a ball through tighter spaces than most people, and that helps him.
To summarize my rambling, arm strength only gets you so far.
I agree your points here. Brodie could definitely see the field better and had the better arm. There is no question about that.
I was really thinking about the two based on game results more so than mechanics and statistics. If you go by achievements through their junior seasons it would be difficult to say that one was better than the other. Brodie didn't exactly set the world on fire until his senior season when he was good. IF JPW has a good year and eliminates the mistakes as Brodie was able to do in his senior season, then I'll put him right there with Brodie as far as achievements as an Alabama QB.
I'll try to give some qualifications to compare the two:
Game Management
Brodie proved to be quiet a good game manager by Senior year. In his freshmen and sophomore seasons, he threw almost as many picks as TDs. In his injury-shorten Junior year and sack-filled Senior year, he threw a combined 20 TDs to 4 INTs. In 2005, he lead three game winning fieldgoal drives against Ole Miss, Tennessee, and Texas Tech (Cotton Bowl). John Parker Wilson has thrown 35 TDs and 22 INTs in his two years of starting for Alabama. He makes more scoring plays than Croyle, but he also is a lot more mistake prone. Though he doesn't get sacked as much as Croyle, he seems to be far more prone to cough the ball up when hit.
Arm Strength
This is really an indisputable category. Wilson's arm is not that impressive. He has made plays downfield by lofting the ball and letting his receiver make a one-on-one plays over his defender. Croyle has the ability to laser a ball into a spot where only his receiver can catch it. Wilson seems to be far more successful than Croyle at not overthrowing his receiver but he does this by almost consistently underthrowing the ball and letting his receiver make an adjustment on it. This is really the crux of Wilson's INT problem, too many of his passes are tipped or stepped in front of by a safety because he chooses to put the ball behind the receiver instead of in front of him. Croyle might have seemed to always barely miss his receiver deep, but he made sure that his receiver was the only guy with a chance to catch it.
Playmaking Ability
I don't think that every quarterback must rush like Pat White, but I think being able to lean on your legs when the initial play breaks down is a key to winning quarterback play. Peyton Manning attempted to be an exclusive pocket passer for most of his NFL career until his Super Bowl year when he started trusting his ability to move out of the pocket and hit long developing routes downfield. He certainly wasn't bootlegging and scrambling at an impressive rate, but it was a slight adjustment that made him far more effective against blitzing defenses like Pittsburgh and New England. Neither Wilson or Croyle have been good at making plays with their feet. Croyle had the justified excuse of two reconstructed knees, but Wilson is far more mobile than Croyle yet he hasn't used it. Wilson's throwing ability on the run is pretty poor and he seems adverse to just tucking it and running when teams back off.
Winning
Being a quarterback boils down to one thing: does your team win? After the 2003 losing season, Croyle only lost two starts the rest of his career. After two full seasons with Wilson, Alabama sits at dead-even: 13-13. It may not be particularly fair to judge one player by a team's performance, but that is simply the nature of the position. No other player has the ball in his hands over the course of the game as much as the QB; he has the most opportunities to make positive or negative plays that affect the outcome of the game. Croyle has far more signature game-winning drives in his career, and Wilson has far more embarrassing collapses or mistakes to win the game for the opponent. Wilson is far more daring and willing to take risk, while Croyle seemed to value hitting the dump route and overthrowing the ball to prevent the opponent's defense from making a play.
Croyle never had the benefit of playing with the talent that was around Wilson. JPW has a far superior offensive line compared to the revolving door that our OL turned into by the end of 2005. After Prothro's injury, Croyle only had a young DJ Hall to go to as a consistent target. Wilson has had the benefit of Smith protecting his blind-side and DJ Hall, Brown, and Caddell all developing a decent set of hands. I think if you could swap the situation for Croyle and Wilson, you'd see Wilson regress even further and Croyle possibly cement himself as a top 10 pick in the draft. Croyle had a better arm, better smarts, and fewer mistakes...he would have beasted this year.
Game Management
Brodie proved to be quiet a good game manager by Senior year. In his freshmen and sophomore seasons, he threw almost as many picks as TDs. In his injury-shorten Junior year and sack-filled Senior year, he threw a combined 20 TDs to 4 INTs. In 2005, he lead three game winning fieldgoal drives against Ole Miss, Tennessee, and Texas Tech (Cotton Bowl). John Parker Wilson has thrown 35 TDs and 22 INTs in his two years of starting for Alabama. He makes more scoring plays than Croyle, but he also is a lot more mistake prone. Though he doesn't get sacked as much as Croyle, he seems to be far more prone to cough the ball up when hit.
Arm Strength
This is really an indisputable category. Wilson's arm is not that impressive. He has made plays downfield by lofting the ball and letting his receiver make a one-on-one plays over his defender. Croyle has the ability to laser a ball into a spot where only his receiver can catch it. Wilson seems to be far more successful than Croyle at not overthrowing his receiver but he does this by almost consistently underthrowing the ball and letting his receiver make an adjustment on it. This is really the crux of Wilson's INT problem, too many of his passes are tipped or stepped in front of by a safety because he chooses to put the ball behind the receiver instead of in front of him. Croyle might have seemed to always barely miss his receiver deep, but he made sure that his receiver was the only guy with a chance to catch it.
Playmaking Ability
I don't think that every quarterback must rush like Pat White, but I think being able to lean on your legs when the initial play breaks down is a key to winning quarterback play. Peyton Manning attempted to be an exclusive pocket passer for most of his NFL career until his Super Bowl year when he started trusting his ability to move out of the pocket and hit long developing routes downfield. He certainly wasn't bootlegging and scrambling at an impressive rate, but it was a slight adjustment that made him far more effective against blitzing defenses like Pittsburgh and New England. Neither Wilson or Croyle have been good at making plays with their feet. Croyle had the justified excuse of two reconstructed knees, but Wilson is far more mobile than Croyle yet he hasn't used it. Wilson's throwing ability on the run is pretty poor and he seems adverse to just tucking it and running when teams back off.
Winning
Being a quarterback boils down to one thing: does your team win? After the 2003 losing season, Croyle only lost two starts the rest of his career. After two full seasons with Wilson, Alabama sits at dead-even: 13-13. It may not be particularly fair to judge one player by a team's performance, but that is simply the nature of the position. No other player has the ball in his hands over the course of the game as much as the QB; he has the most opportunities to make positive or negative plays that affect the outcome of the game. Croyle has far more signature game-winning drives in his career, and Wilson has far more embarrassing collapses or mistakes to win the game for the opponent. Wilson is far more daring and willing to take risk, while Croyle seemed to value hitting the dump route and overthrowing the ball to prevent the opponent's defense from making a play.
Croyle never had the benefit of playing with the talent that was around Wilson. JPW has a far superior offensive line compared to the revolving door that our OL turned into by the end of 2005. After Prothro's injury, Croyle only had a young DJ Hall to go to as a consistent target. Wilson has had the benefit of Smith protecting his blind-side and DJ Hall, Brown, and Caddell all developing a decent set of hands. I think if you could swap the situation for Croyle and Wilson, you'd see Wilson regress even further and Croyle possibly cement himself as a top 10 pick in the draft. Croyle had a better arm, better smarts, and fewer mistakes...he would have beasted this year.
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I sometimes wonder what the 2004 season would have turned out like if Brodie hadn't been injured. I know we are not suppose to brow beat Mike shula anymore but that was one of the first signals i got that it wasn't gonna work out with shula. I mean up 40-0 on western carolina What is Brodie still doing in the game? once again im not trying to turn this into a bash shula thread I'm just throwing another variable that maybe some people haven't thought of: JPW got to have a junior year Brodie didnt. But i believe Brodie is the better QB with a stronger arm and better Accuracy and better decision making.
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