JessN: Michigan wrap-up: Bama needs a clean break from this identity

[tusks_n_raider]

I'll just add this. Team NAYSAYER was right.

Probably one of the few times I'll ever say this but...

BoB was right.

 

[JDCrimson]

He showed McCord the door then held it open for Judkins to walk in...

I aint putting Day on a pedestal...

That is why I have respect for Day. He may not be the best coach in the world, but he told a high profile player to go screw himself in an era where no other coach would.

 

[TideEngineer08]

I have no idea how this playoff will pan out, but you are right. If he can't figure out UM, he will be fired. OSU isn't Georgia. They kept Smart even though he simply cannot beat Alabama.

We're not really rivals though and that helps Smart. He also got us one time on the biggest stage, and followed it up with a 15-0 season.

It would be very different for Smart if his Alabama record were what he'd done vs. Florida.

 

[bamaltc]

Saban tried to get rid of him but TCU wouldn’t bow to his demands. There is a lot that I know but don’t wish to get into, but I will say Saban has alot of blame for this fiasco for not doing what was necessary in 2023.

I understand that you can’t compromise your sources and you shouldn’t. That being said, the secrecy and lack of disclosure has allowed this to perpetuate. If consumers are aware of a defective product, they quit buying it, and it forces the manufacturer to correct the defect.

 

[Bill from NYC]

This game was exactly what I dreaded. Now, MSN is saying that perhaps Milroe should remain in school. https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ot...or-performance-in-reliaquest-bowl/ar-AA1wMkJH

With Milroe at QB, we could have easily been even worse this season. Let's not forget, he almost gave away the South Carolina game with his two interceptions and four sacks.

Football vs South Carolina on 10/12/2024 - Box Score - Alabama Athletics

The official box score of Football vs South Carolina on 10/12/2024

rolltide.com

Milroe seems like a great person. He is smart, religious, and always seems like a person one would want as a friend. That said, he is NOT a quarterback. He doesn't step up in the pocket. If he did he would avoid sacks. Instead he rolls right and then it's all over. He has a deep arm but very little touch and/or accuracy on short to mid range passes.

Where I disagree with some fans is that I think that with any of our previous four quarterbacks, this Alabama team would be in the hunt for the title. I think our team was stacked with talent.

My question to you @JessN is: why didn't DeBoer pull him at various points of the season? Yesterday and the Oklahoma game he stunk up the field. Was it politics? I hope not. I also hope that DeBoer (already a well established coach), was able to learn from his mistakes. Maybe he was bust "settling in" at Tuscalossa.

Well, it's a new year and I for one expect improvement, if our receivers don't abandon ship.

Happy and Healthy New Year to everyone on this board, and RTR 4EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Saban4Ever]

Saban tried to get rid of him but TCU wouldn’t bow to his demands. There is a lot that I know but don’t wish to get into, but I will say Saban has alot of blame for this fiasco for not doing what was necessary in 2023.

One thing I'd like to know is did Deboer know about all this before he was hired, or was this fiasco a surprise to him once he signed to be our new coach? Maybe he didn't know the situation, or maybe he did and thought it would go away?

 

[Saban4Ever]

The thing is he wasn't a 'good soldier'.

He leveraged and manipulated his way into a vice grip on the QB1 position. He injected poison into the locker room.

He's a Good Student academically and that's all I can say that's positive.

But I didn't like the player or the personality.

It will be interesting to know what feedback Saban and Deboer will give to NFL scouts about Jalen.

 

[DrollTide]

...
I’ve been part of and led enough teams to believe I can spot a dysfunctional one a mile away. This was one, and not because of the W-L record. Rather, I’d wager the record reflected the lack of accountability to a behavioral standard…

I agree with Mr Isaiah. It is all about what you do, not the other guy - attention to detail and doing the right thing all the time, on the field or when noone is watching.

I was temporarily impressed by the "shirts tucked in" players only meeting, but this did not last long. This is what the team needs to go back to - the long hard low-prestige detail-oriented doing of the right thing all the time. No celebration, no showing out, respect for your opponent, your teammates, and the game.

 

[BamaMoon]

I actually was glad they went as far away from Saban as they could. There's basically two times you do that: When you're at the top, or at the bottom. And we were in the final four last year so we were as close to the top as you can get.

The thinking there is unless there truly is a Nick Saban II out there -- and if there is, it's Kirby Smart, who we weren't going to be able to attract under any circumstance -- if you start going down the tree you end up getting a copy of a copy, so to speak.

The other thing Alabama fans need to reconcile is that Saban's system was starting to show cracks, too. Not just in schemes but in the way the program was run. On top of that, the one guy that had enough Saban in him, potentially, and who Alabama could get to was Cignetti, who absolutely no Alabama fan would have been happy with Byrne for hiring at the time. Zero. I'm just being realistic and honest.

Finally, fans seem to like coaches who treat the kids like it's a military exercise but that's not how college football is running right now. You have players making more than their position coaches, but without the maturity of age or the structure of the NFL there to enforce some standards of organization. I think Byrne looked at all of that and (correctly) decided to take the guy he thought was the best talent available and on his book, that was DeBoer.

I believe you are 100% correct. Your approach is a little more scientific than mine. But, anecdotally, I'll just say in my chosen career, I've seen long-time, successful CEO types leave their job (retire/die) and IMO, you cannot try to hire a clone of the former successful guy because they do not exist.

The only choice, to give the next guy a chance, is to hire a different type of personality. In Bama's case, much of the anxiety about CKD starting to creep in pretty early about how different he was, how he dressed, and then when the losses came the whispers about how he's so different than CNS. Yes, he's different, but we now have to understand any coach would be different including a CNS legacy, who would have certainly lost games with this team too!

A thought-provoking post, Isaiah. I like the Lencioni reference, too.

I do agree this "team" was not a team. That's probably CKD's biggest challenge next year, other than identifying our next starting QB.

I'll just add this. Team NAYSAYER was right.

I was right there with you! It's nothing to "brag" about for us/others who felt this way because team naysayers being right means Bama failed. But I still don't understand what team LANK saw in JM that made them think he would suddenly figure it out.

 

[UAH]

We do not agree.

DeBoer has a track record any coach would be proud of. Next year -- minus the LANK idiots (and some insane behind-the-scenes politics we've learned only snippets about) -- will be the year to evaluate the wisdom of the CKD hire.

That being posted, if CKD doesn't have Bama solidly in the Top Ten nationally, THEN I might be persuaded he's a poor fit for Alabama.

It begs the question what track record are we referring to? The one at NAIA programs and at Boise State with two years at Washington at his last stop? Just not sure how that stacks up against programs in the SEC.

 

[BamaMoon]

I want to drill down a little about my belief you can't try to hire a "CNS version 2." Yes, it's easy to say "But what if we had hired Cignetti?" First, as JessN said, 100% of Bama fans would have said "No Way Jose" if that would have been the choice. Cignetti, for all his CNS likeness personality-wise is NOT a proven coach. IMO, Indiana caught lightning in a bottle this year with a weak/easy schedule and when they finally played a team with talent it showed. And imagine Cignetti trying to be CNS2 when we started losing games.

We've got to get this in our heads: There is no CNS2 waiting in the wings to get hired if CKD fails.

In JessN's article he paints the financial picture of why CKD will probably get at least 3 years. I'm glad to hear this if for no other reason because we don't won't to follow the "Auburn Strategy" of trying to hire the next great coach.

And for you older ones, let's revisit early 1983 when another legend was suddenly gone. He retired of his own volition too, only to die shortly thereafter. We hired a Bama boy who was nothing like his former coach, but he was a Bryant legacy. Remember how that went when he made some boneheaded choices/changes? After he left, we went on a long, tedious search trying to find the next "great one." While Coach Gene Stallings gave us a few years of hope, it took another 10 years or so of total failure to lead us to 2006. No, we didn't fire a coach after a year or two of bad seasons...albeit, like some programs seem to do. Can't recall, but maybe other than Mike Price and Shula, we didn't fire anybody. But all the unrest was basically the program chasing the next great one. Outside of the Stallings years, it was 20+ years of football mediocrity.

I say all of this to those who are saying "Fire CKD" to simply say "it's not that simple." We need to have the patience of Job to allow a man who has won 90% of his games in other places to adjust to following the Goat, to SEC play and to building a roster of players that fit his system. If that doesn't work after a few seasons, we'll look elsewhere. But chasing the "Ghost of Nick Saban" will only hurt our program if we don't have the proper patience much like trying to find the next "Coach Byrant" did in the 80's-2006.

 

[BamaMoon]

It begs the question what track record are we referring to? The one at NAIA programs and at Boise State with two years at Washington at his last stop? Just not sure how that stacks up against programs in the SEC.

I'll give you that "coaching" in the SEC is not "apples to apples" with NAIA, Fresno St. or even Washington, but the nuts and bolts of successful coaching works anywhere.

I think the point is "give the man some time" and he'll probably figure it out.

 

[B1GTide]

I'll give you that "coaching" in the SEC is not "apples to apples" with NAIA, Fresno St. or even Washington, but the nuts and bolts of successful coaching works anywhere.

I think the point is "give the man some time" and he'll probably figure it out.

It is a little more complicated. Head coaches have to be able to adapt their style to their players everywhere, but they also have to be willing to adapt their styles based on the opponents. Some systems simply will not work against some offenses or defenses. We will have to see if DeBoer's system will work in the SEC. I was not sure that Meyer's could, but it did. If it doesn't, how will DeBoer adapt?

This year doesn't count. Won't hold Milroe against him (though he should not have made it through the entire season, losing the LANK squad be damned).

Let's see what he does in 2025.

 

[BamaMoon]

It is a little more complicated. Head coaches have to be able to adapt their style to their players everywhere, but they also have to be willing to adapt their styles based on the opponents. Some systems simply will not work against some offenses or defenses. We will have to see if DeBoer's system will work in the SEC. I was not sure that Meyer's could, but it did. If it doesn't, how will DeBoer adapt?

This year doesn't count. Won't hold Milroe against him (though he should not have made it through the entire season, losing the LANK squad be damned).

Let's see what he does in 2025.

His style worked all the way to the semis last year after just a couple of recruiting classes and "getting the right QB." I know it wasn't the SEC, but that was a great team he assembled in a short time!

I'm fully convinced his Air Raid system will work in the SEC, but as you said, we can't hold JM against him, because it's 100% clear that's not how his offensive system works.

And, it'll eventually come out, but there was just waaaaay too much locker room drama for this "team" to do great things and I'm fully believe that's why he never sat JM. This "team" was playing on a keg of dynamite and I believe CKD knew sitting JM would light the fuse.

It's easy to say, kick 'em all off the team, but until we went to OU in the next to the last game of the season we were still in the playoff hunt.

 

[tusks_n_raider]

I want to drill down a little about my belief you can't try to hire a "CNS version 2." Yes, it's easy to say "But what if we had hired Cignetti?" First, as JessN said, 100% of Bama fans would have said "No Way Jose" if that would have been the choice. Cignetti, for all his CNS likeness personality-wise is NOT a proven coach. IMO, Indiana caught lightning in a bottle this year with a weak/easy schedule and when they finally played a team with talent it showed. And imagine Cignetti trying to be CNS2 when we started losing games.

We've got to get this in our heads: There is no CNS2 waiting in the wings to get hired if CKD fails.

In JessN's article he paints the financial picture of why CKD will probably get at least 3 years. I'm glad to hear this if for no other reason because we don't won't to follow the "Auburn Strategy" of trying to hire the next great coach.

And for you older ones, let's revisit early 1983 when another legend was suddenly gone. He retired of his own volition too, only to die shortly thereafter. We hired a Bama boy who was nothing like his former coach, but he was a Bryant legacy. Remember how that went when he made some boneheaded choices/changes? After he left, we went on a long, tedious search trying to find the next "great one." While Coach Gene Stallings gave us a few years of hope, it took another 10 years or so of total failure to lead us to 2006. No, we didn't fire a coach after a year or two of bad seasons...albeit, like some programs seem to do. Can't recall, but maybe other than Mike Price and Shula, we didn't fire anybody. But all the unrest was basically the program chasing the next great one. Outside of the Stallings years, it was 20+ years of football mediocrity.

I say all of this to those who are saying "Fire CKD" to simply say "it's not that simple." We need to have the patience of Job to allow a man who has won 90% of his games in other places to adjust to following the Goat, to SEC play and to building a roster of players that fit his system. If that doesn't work after a few seasons, we'll look elsewhere. But chasing the "Ghost of Nick Saban" will only hurt our program if we don't have the proper patience much like trying to find the next "Coach Byrant" did in the 80's-2006.

I agree with you to a point in that we can't just up and can him and expect anyone else to take the job.

But I still think Cignetti did a great job this year at IU and I'm not going to criticize him for losing to two 2 Top 5 teams.

That's not me saying 'fire CKD hire Cig'.

Just want to give that guy credit and fwiw.... He beat a full strength Mich team that beat us yesterday with the guys who were on the bench vs IU.

 

[SMOKIESBAMAFAN]

Question for those that want to fire DeBoer. Who do you realistically think we would get? Seriously name one coach that would actually take the job and be better.

I know that, for some reason, people no longer like Dabo, but he would have 100% made the playoffs with this team.

 

[gtgilbert]

I know that, for some reason, people no longer like Dabo, but he would have 100% made the playoffs with this team.

Not with JM at QB.

 

[Bpilktree]

I want to drill down a little about my belief you can't try to hire a "CNS version 2." Yes, it's easy to say "But what if we had hired Cignetti?" First, as JessN said, 100% of Bama fans would have said "No Way Jose" if that would have been the choice. Cignetti, for all his CNS likeness personality-wise is NOT a proven coach. IMO, Indiana caught lightning in a bottle this year with a weak/easy schedule and when they finally played a team with talent it showed. And imagine Cignetti trying to be CNS2 when we started losing games.

We've got to get this in our heads: There is no CNS2 waiting in the wings to get hired if CKD fails.

In JessN's article he paints the financial picture of why CKD will probably get at least 3 years. I'm glad to hear this if for no other reason because we don't won't to follow the "Auburn Strategy" of trying to hire the next great coach.

And for you older ones, let's revisit early 1983 when another legend was suddenly gone. He retired of his own volition too, only to die shortly thereafter. We hired a Bama boy who was nothing like his former coach, but he was a Bryant legacy. Remember how that went when he made some boneheaded choices/changes? After he left, we went on a long, tedious search trying to find the next "great one." While Coach Gene Stallings gave us a few years of hope, it took another 10 years or so of total failure to lead us to 2006. No, we didn't fire a coach after a year or two of bad seasons...albeit, like some programs seem to do. Can't recall, but maybe other than Mike Price and Shula, we didn't fire anybody. But all the unrest was basically the program chasing the next great one. Outside of the Stallings years, it was 20+ years of football mediocrity.

I say all of this to those who are saying "Fire CKD" to simply say "it's not that simple." We need to have the patience of Job to allow a man who has won 90% of his games in other places to adjust to following the Goat, to SEC play and to building a roster of players that fit his system. If that doesn't work after a few seasons, we'll look elsewhere. But chasing the "Ghost of Nick Saban" will only hurt our program if we don't have the proper patience much like trying to find the next "Coach Byrant" did in the 80's-2006.

There probably is one at getting performance on the field and with recruiting bringing in players and on field adjustments but he burned way too many bridges off the field to get the job.

 

[64met]

Not one in the know, but what logical reason has CKD given for not benching JM at any point in the season given his erratic play? Is it tied to NIL garbage? We might not ever know but I want someone to ask Deboer WHY?

 

[gtgilbert]

Not one in the know, but what logical reason has CKD given for not benching JM at any point in the season given his erratic play? Is it tied to NIL garbage? We might not ever know but I want someone to ask Deboer WHY?

Even if asked directly, he can't directly answer because the truth hurts to much. He's not going to get in front of a mike and tell the world that he didn't bench NILroe because JM has him by the balls with NIL being paid to other players so he had to agree to JM being the unquestioned starter to keep the team together.