Minnesota Players Boycotting All Football Activities After 10 Players Suspended...

[PaulD]

Here is an article from the St. Paul newspaper: LINK

I heard the writer talk on SiriusXM this afternoon.

One point is that the students (like most people) felt that a prosecutor's decision to not bring charges is a finding of not guilty. As a former military and state prosecutor, I can assure you that it isn't. It is a determination that for various reasons the prosecutor can't see his or her way to being able to prove every element of the offense beyond a reasonable doubt. That is all that it means.

The University received a complaint under Title IX and was required to investigate. It did and filed an 82 page report that recommended five players be expelled, four suspended for a year, and one placed on probation. These investigations don't use the beyond a reasonable doubt standard. Instead they use (as civil suits do) a preponderance of the evidence standard, which is that it is more likely than not that something happened. It's not unheard of for a person found not guilty of murder to be found liable for the wrongful death of the victim. (See Simpson, O.J.) If your primary investigative agency makes these findings against student-athletes, I don't see how any university can allow them to play. Again this isn't a criminal process, so don't start hollering "presumption of innocence."

If all the students were asking for is for the President and AD to say "we're sorry that we didn't explain this better" this might go away, but it isn't. I don't see how the University can accept the players' demands that the suspensions be canceled. It may mean that they withdraw from the bowl in favor of Northern Illinois (tough challenge for NIU this late in the game, but then Washington St. won't have prepared for them either) and cancel scholarships. The players' shop steward has already said that UM can't afford to do that for 120 players. (If they have really have 120 on scholarship, the NCAA will come calling.) I recognize that it would cast the team to a level in the Big 10 with Rutgers, but what choice do you have? Do you say that there is a special Title IX process for when the student involved is also an athlete?

 

[rgw]

Most of the big state colleges have a significant female student body majority. I think over the next several years we're going to see an aggressive over-correction in response to the failures of universities in the past w/r/t protecting women. Gotta protect the profit center and frankly women are more and more becoming the profit center of universities. So we must be aware for when to push back on policies that are devoid of common sense or just replace one injustice with another injustice that is more palatable in the current environment.

 

[Tidewater]

If this happened to my son, I would sue the school and I am almost certain that I would win.

Guy's father was an attorney.
No lawsuit.
Title IX folks do not play around, probably due to schools playing fast and loose and sweeping too many actual assaults under the carpet. The procedures and rules of evidence they have in place now drastically favor the prosecution. That doesn't make it fair, nor do I approve, just stating my assessment.
For example, the student's defense attorney (provided at the defendant's expense) adopted the cute defense of "Prove that my client was ever in contact with the alleged assault victim." The Title IX rep never even tried to prove that. "The victim said (a week after the events) that she was assaulted. Guilty."

 

[B1GTide]

Guy's father was an attorney.
No lawsuit.
Title IX folks do not play around, probably due to schools playing fast and loose and sweeping too many actual assaults under the carpet. The procedures and rules of evidence they have in place now drastically favor the prosecution. That doesn't make it fair, nor do I approve, just stating my assessment.
For example, the student's defense attorney (provided at the defendant's expense) adopted the cute defense of "Prove that my client was ever in contact with the alleged assault victim." The Title IX rep never even tried to prove that. "The victim said (a week after the events) that she was assaulted. Guilty."

Doesn't mean that he shouldn't have sued. I would spend a small fortune on this if it happened to my son. I would also make it very public, and very ugly.

This is the kind of thing that can follow a kid around for the rest of his life.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Different rules of evidence and different burden of proof.
I've had a student deal with Title IX sexual assault allegations. With Title IX, the accused is guilty until proven innocent. In my student's case, there was no evidence whatsoever to indicate any sexual contact at all, much less sexual assault. It was he said, she said. My student was expelled from school.

That is absolutely wrong. I know Mommy and Daddy like to think their little precious angel is as pure as the driven snow and is sitting in her dorm room on Thursday nights studying her Sunday School lesson. But unfortunately that simply isn't the case. I lived in an athletic dorm for two years and I can't even begin to count the number of times these sweet precious angels would sneak into the dorms and look to "lay hands" on anyone they could.

 

[CrimsonEyeshade]

Sounds like the inmates are running the asylum.

From the Universities standpoint...
I suspect that there have been 'CODE OF CONDUCT VIOLATIONS' at the very least.
The Players choose a very bad way to protest. Where the heck is the coach. I gather he doesn't attempt to control or discipline his players.

From the players stand point...
What? Has Minnesota became another Berkley.
Some of these guys must have been easily led.

From my standpoint...
I am an Authoritarian... I would have told them they have the right to boycott, but I have the right to demand they turn in their uniforms. They would be voluntarily giving up their Scholarships. I would give them an 'I' for Incomplete for their grade.
Right or Wrong the players boycotting will ultimately be judged to be in the wrong.

That would be your right, and a lot of fans would support your decision. Wonder what those same fans would say on the next Signing Day when you and UNA would be fighting for the same kids?

 

[PaulD]

U can take action in sexual assault cases, even if police or prosecutors don't

Here's an article from the Minneapolis Star-Tribune that talks about the Title IX process. I see that the Board of Regents is getting involved, which it usually shouldn't do. In fact, if the Board overrules the President or AD, and I were either one of them, I'd be resigning tonight and saying why. The Board needs to let the process play out and not jump in because football players are involved.

"[FONT=&quot]In fact, the university is required to investigate reports of sexual assault, and take appropriate action, under federal guidelines that apply to all colleges and universities receiving government funds."

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"Last year, the university adopted what’s known as an “affirmative consent” or “yes means yes” policy. That defines sexual assault as any sexual contact that lacks “clear and unambiguous words or actions ... [that] communicate a willingness to participate in a mutually agreed upon sexual activity.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Under the university’s policy, which is posted online, a complaint of sexual assault triggers an investigation by the Office of Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action. In some cases, students can be suspended temporarily pending the outcome of an investigation."
[/FONT]

 

[B1GTide]

"Last year, the university adopted what’s known as an “affirmative consent” or “yes means yes” policy. That defines sexual assault as any sexual contact that lacks “clear and unambiguous words or actions ... [that] communicate a willingness to participate in a mutually agreed upon sexual activity.”

These policies should be illegal as they place the burden of proof on the accused. The accused has to prove somehow that they were given consent. I am not sure how one could do that. A girl says yes, has fun, and then either has regrets or just gets her panties in a twist and the guy is now guilty because he didn't ask her to sign a letter of consent before sex. Heck, even if she signed she could claim that she was coerced. A woman evil enough to falsely accuse a man of rape is capable of anything.

I am 100% supportive of rape victims, but I worry for my sons in this world.

 

[russtang]

One thing that's clear is the Minnesota Administration and coaching staff have done a crap poor job of communication with the team, each other, and the public.

 

[Tidewater]

Doesn't mean that he shouldn't have sued. I would spend a small fortune on this if it happened to my son. I would also make it very public, and very ugly.

This is the kind of thing that can follow a kid around for the rest of his life.

I was simply stunned when the results were announced. (It wasn't "guilty" I think it was "responsible.")
The relevant facts were she had proudly proclaimed to female underclassmen (underclasswomen?) of her sexual conquests, including sleeping with her graduate teaching assistant (inadmissible evidence at this "trial").
She had waited a week and only brought forth the assault charge when she was afraid she would get in trouble for violating the "alcohol in the dorm" policy.
Immediately after the "assault" she sent a text to the perp saying simply, "Thanks." (studying together had been the subterfuge both had used to set up the encounter). What rape victim says "Thanks" to her rapist?
No evidence of assault was ever introduced. She said it. That settled it.
It was the darnedest thing I ever saw.
It wasn't that the preponderance of evidence. No evidence besides her testimony was ever introduced. None. She said rape. That settled things as far as the Title IX folks were concerned.
She never got into any trouble for violating the alcohol in the dorm policy, not for violating the female in a males dorm room policy. She walked (which was all she was ever really after in my view). He was expelled and given the opportunity to come back a year later to finish his degree (which may be why a suit was never filed.
The whole thing was a big joke, except a young man's life was turned upside down.
This tragicomedy reminded me of this quote.

"The federal government is unfit to exercise minor police and local government, and will inevitably blunder when it attempts it."

 

[RTR91]

KSTP Exclusive: 80-Page Report Outlines U of M Investigation into Gophers Football Players

 

[MN-Tide]

The Gophers football and basketball program have been tainted by scandal so often in recent years, it is ridiculous. While I am a graduate of the University of Minnesota, when it comes to sports, I am so glad that I grew up in Alabama, so I can continue to roll with the Tide. On a happier note in Minnesota, the temperature tomorrow will be -23 degrees. That's not the wind chill, that's the real temperature.

 

[rgw]

The Gophers football and basketball program have been tainted by scandal so often in recent years, it is ridiculous. While I am a graduate of the University of Minnesota, when it comes to sports, I am so glad that I grew up in Alabama, so I can continue to roll with the Tide. On a happier note in Minnesota, the temperature tomorrow will be -23 degrees. That's not the wind chill, that's the real temperature.

As all our grandmothers would say: "bless your heart"

 

[Tidewater]

KSTP Exclusive: 80-Page Report Outlines U of M Investigation into Gophers Football Players

I guess that about says it all.
If I was the football coach, I'd have the players read this and then ask them what they would like the University to do now.

 

[KrAzY3]

Timeline.
My reading is that the students are protesting the appearance of double jeopardy.
Law enforcement decides not to prosecute.
Title IX folks want their pound of flesh anyway.

So Winston is innocent because charges weren't pressed? She identified him, had his DNA on her, almost immediately reported the crime, and had bruising appear on her during the interview. No prosecution though, so he's not guilty right? No, that's not how that works at all.

Sandusky wasn't prosecuted for decades either. I guess that made him innocent right? He was reported, there were "investigations" but nothing came of them. Holding that up as double jeopardy or proof if innocence is specious.

I don't know all the details in this case. However, from what I have seen? From things that have gone on at places like Tennessee, Baylor, Penn State, and Florida State? It seemed like Minnesota actually acted with some moral character for once. Seems like it could have been handled better, but football players getting away with sexual abuse has been a thing for decades.

 

[rgw]

I think the facts are different in this case. The school and police were on top of this whole ordeal. There wasn't a conspiracy cover-up or outright police department bungling of the process.

 

[KrAzY3]

I think the facts are different in this case. The school and police were on top of this whole ordeal. There wasn't a conspiracy cover-up or outright police department bungling of the process.

Reading the account though, there is no question at all that Minnesota was fully justified in taking action against these individuals. Even if you give them every benefit of the doubt, you are still left with compelling evidence that several of them had sex with the same inebriated woman. This included pictures, video, and encouraging others to participate. What college would condone that sort of behavior, with a recruit present no less, from their student athletes?

I've said before that I don't care about what goes on with consenting adults, but A: I'm not even sure the recruit was an adult, and B: In the very least the woman's ability to fully consent was impaired. C: Pretty much everyone on the planet knows the proper response after having sex with a drunk woman doesn't include inviting your friends over to have sex with her to.

I do understand why the team took a stand though. They clearly were... no pun intended, in this together.

 

[Tidewater]

So Winston is innocent because charges weren't pressed? She identified him, had his DNA on her, almost immediately reported the crime, and had bruising appear on her during the interview. No prosecution though, so he's not guilty right? No, that's not how that works at all.

Sandusky wasn't prosecuted for decades either. I guess that made him innocent right? He was reported, there were "investigations" but nothing came of them. Holding that up as double jeopardy or proof if innocence is specious.

I don't know all the details in this case. However, from what I have seen? From things that have gone on at places like Tennessee, Baylor, Penn State, and Florida State? It seemed like Minnesota actually acted with some moral character for once. Seems like it could have been handled better, but football players getting away with sexual abuse has been a thing for decades.

Krazy, don't get me wrong. I believe that Winston is an unconvicted rapist. The Tallahassee law enforcement community just refused to do their duty.
I'm just explaining how the football players probably see it.
As I said above, if I were the head coach, I'd have the players read the redacted report and then ask them what they would like the University to do.
As Paul D explained above, the standard is not "beyond a reasonable doubt" (this isn't a criminal trial), it is "preponderance of evidence."
And as I explained above, with Title IX folks, it is not really even about preponderance of evidence. It is whether the female student alleges she was raped. If she does, they're "responsible" in the eyes of the University. As PaulD asked above, do we really want to have one standard for football players and another for general population students?

 

[KrAzY3]

do we really want to have one standard for football players and another for general population students?

I would like to respond to just this part. I think we should have a higher standard for football players. They are being given a full scholarship, they're being placed on a pedestal. There are team rules, there are standards that extend beyond the rules of the university itself, and beyond the law. So, in terms of football players, I think the standard should be higher. They need to behave in a manner showing themselves to be worthy of the full ride scholarship and the recognition they are getting. Having said that, I'm not here to decide what the standard should be. There is also the element of behavior as a team.

I would add that I've been expelled from two different (high) schools. We can debate the merits of public education and what not, but while we all can argue with individual cases (I felt completely wronged in one scenario), I still fully defend the right for a school to make their own determination in terms of who is allowed to attend. College should be a privilege, not a right. They should be allowed to have their own behavioral standards. Looking at what went on, I just don't see how they were supposed to look the other way on this. I do see why some are afraid that pitchforks will come out in the future, and completely innocent people will be treated unjustly. However, this just doesn't seem to be one of those incidents.

 

[Tidewater]

I would like to respond to just this part. I think we should have a higher standard for football players. They are being given a full scholarship, they're being placed on a pedestal. There are team rules, there are standards that extend beyond the rules of the university itself, and beyond the law. So, in terms of football players, I think the standard should be higher. They need to behave in a manner showing themselves to be worthy of the full ride scholarship and the recognition they are getting. Having said that, I'm not here to decide what the standard should be.

I would add that I've been expelled from two different (high) schools. We can debate the merits of public education and what not, but while we all can argue with individual cases (I felt completely wronged in one scenario), I still fully defend the right for a school to make their own determination in terms of who is allowed to attend. College should be a privilege, not a right. They should be allowed to have their own behavioral standards. Looking at what went on, I just don't see how they were supposed to look the other way on this. I do see why some are afraid that pitchforks will come out in the future, and completely innocent people will be treated unjustly. However, this just doesn't seem to be one of those incidents.

Krazy, I'm with your brother. I believe an outsider could look at this and say that the football players are asking to be held to a lower standard than general population students, that the University should cut the football players some slack because they are football players. I wouldn't support that and I don't think your would.
Please (if you have the time) go back and read my posts in this thread.