Obama Trying Very Hard To Be Worse Than Bush

[SoldierForTide]

The Constitution isn't being put to the side. There are atleast 30 to 40 mosques in NY City, so how are any rights being taken away. I would be willing to wager a very large sum of money that other churches or other religious buildings have not been allowed to be built for various reasons. Through zoning laws or other reasons there have been many buildings not allowed to be built, religious or other wise. It doesn't stop someone from practicing their religion, there are plenty of places to do that.

Yet the mosque has already been cleared in those facets, so legally, you have no standing.

If you cannot see how blocking the construction of this building will affect your rights, then I can no longer help you.

I've come on here to voice my opinion most of you don't even argue the points, while others just say that this is bad because Muslims want to take over America (yea, you guys really believe it), and then gmart who personally insults me. Other than that, all of your arguments are sound.

What's crazy is your basic principles don't even support your stance, but you're so "offended" and scared of Muslims that you can't let go.

 

[swoop10]

Yet the mosque has already been cleared in those facets, so legally, you have no standing.

If you cannot see how blocking the construction of this building will affect your rights, then I can no longer help you.

I've come on here to voice my opinion most of you don't even argue the points, while others just say that this is bad because Muslims want to take over America (yea, you guys really believe it), and then gmart who personally insults me. Other than that, all of your arguments are sound.

What's crazy is your basic principles don't even support your stance, but you're so "offended" and scared of Muslims that you can't let go.

I understand that those facets have been cleared. I'm just pointing out that religious buildings are blocked for one reason or another and nobody has cried about religious freedom. The government already will take properity if they deem it necessary for the city/state to do so. So if you actually think that we have rights that they can't touch then I would say you are wrong.

Next, I'm not scared or offended by Muslims and probably wouldn't have a problem with a mosque, but the Imman incharge of this has many questionable quotes and opinions. Not only that they want to start building and dedicate it on 9/11/11. I personally have a problem with that.

Now as to the Muslims taking over America and I don't put all Muslims in the same catigory but they are doing exactly that in Europe. Now I don't think it can happen here but if you don't think that the radicals don't want this then fine but the problem with these radicals is only going to get worse.

 

[SoldierForTide]

I understand that those facets have been cleared. I'm just pointing out that religious buildings are blocked for one reason or another and nobody has cried about religious freedom. The government already will take properity if they deem it necessary for the city/state to do so. So if you actually think that we have rights that they can't touch then I would say you are wrong.

Next, I'm not scared or offended by Muslims and probably wouldn't have a problem with a mosque, but the Imman incharge of this has many questionable quotes and opinions. Not only that they want to start building and dedicate it on 9/11/11. I personally have a problem with that.

Now as to the Muslims taking over America and I don't put all Muslims in the same catigory but they are doing exactly that in Europe. Now I don't think it can happen here but if you don't think that the radicals don't want this then fine but the problem with these radicals is only going to get worse.

Just because you don't agree with what he says or find it questionable, he still has the right. Your reasoning is that, "hey, there have been mistakes against our rights in the past, so let's just do it some more." That somehow makes sense to you

 

[Hamilton]

George W. H. Bush made me vote 3rd party...and I've never stopped since then.

That's a fancy way of saying, "I voted for Obama and I'm ashamed to admit it. But when the election rolls around again in 2012, I'll vote for him again."

 

[Hamilton]

Yet the mosque has already been cleared in those facets, so legally, you have no standing.

If you cannot see how blocking the construction of this building will affect your rights, then I can no longer help you.

I've come on here to voice my opinion most of you don't even argue the points, while others just say that this is bad because Muslims want to take over America (yea, you guys really believe it), and then gmart who personally insults me. Other than that, all of your arguments are sound.

What's crazy is your basic principles don't even support your stance, but you're so "offended" and scared of Muslims that you can't let go.

I'm not sure about "take over," but the Muslims with whom the Imam is affiliated and has been affiliated with in the past certainly want to destroy America. And you can't argue with that statement, so, you'll try to deflect to the fact about how that doesn't matter. Please don't play the "soldier" card again, either. As my cousin--who is a Lt. Colonel--says, "Just because you've fought for our country doesn't mean you have any more say in how it should be run."

 

[SoldierForTide]

I'm not sure about "take over," but the Muslims with whom the Imam is affiliated and has been affiliated with in the past certainly want to destroy America. And you can't argue with that statement, so, you'll try to deflect to the fact about how that doesn't matter. Please don't play the "soldier" card again, either. As my cousin--who is a Lt. Colonel--says, "Just because you've fought for our country doesn't mean you have any more say in how it should be run."

And people affiliated with churches in the south have been affiliated with people who hate African-Americans. Should those churches be shut down? I still don't understand the reasoning behind making an exception to the Constitution on this matter. There's no reason they can't build it. I don't think I have any more say in the court of opinion than anyone else, but I hold true to the basic principles of the Constitution not some poll conducted on the internet.

Part of the President's statement: “This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country, and will not be treated differently by their government, is essential to who we are.”

Maybe he should have kept his mouth shut but how do you disagree with that? I still have yet to hear a reason why, other than some people have jacked up the Constitution in the past, so we should discount its practicality altogether.

 

[gmart74]

and then gmart who personally insults me. Other than that, all of your arguments are sound.

huh?? when did i insult you? i have read over this thread again and i dont see a single post where i insulted you. you seem to have a problem with reality and truth. maybe you are too emotional about this subject to have a conversation about it.

 

[swoop10]

Just because you don't agree with what he says or find it questionable, he still has the right. Your reasoning is that, "hey, there have been mistakes against our rights in the past, so let's just do it some more." That somehow makes sense to you

Okay that's fine, so let's take your way of thinking and apply it elsewhere. He may have the right to build a mosque where ever he wants, so would you say the same about a child molester building or buying a house by a school or daycare center? Would you be okay with a child molester living next door and nobody allowing you to know about it?

Also you talk about his rights but we have the right to be against this. I personally don't care about him building a mosque but he says he is doing it to build relationships between us and Muslims, so my question is if this is true then why not build it somewhere else? Also, why dedicate it on the 10th anniversary of 9/11?

 

[SoldierForTide]

Okay that's fine, so let's take your way of thinking and apply it elsewhere. He may have the right to build a mosque where ever he wants, so would you say the same about a child molester building or buying a house by a school or daycare center? Would you be okay with a child molester living next door and nobody allowing you to know about it?

Also you talk about his rights but we have the right to be against this. I personally don't care about him building a mosque but he says he is doing it to build relationships between us and Muslims, so my question is if this is true then why not build it somewhere else? Also, why dedicate it on the 10th anniversary of 9/11?

That isn't my argument at all. I'm pretty sure there are laws prohibiting convicted child molesters from moving close to places with lots of children. They are proven guilty in court and forever labeled as such.

And maybe he is building it to bring the two cultures together, I don't know, never met the guy, but it's not the point.

 

[SoldierForTide]

huh?? when did i insult you? i have read over this thread again and i dont see a single post where i insulted you. you seem to have a problem with reality and truth. maybe you are too emotional about this subject to have a conversation about it.

You're right, implying that I may kill people because I think this guy has a right to build his religious building in New York is in no way insulting.

 

[gmart74]

You're right, implying that I may kill people because I think this guy has a right to build his religious building in New York is in no way insulting.

you are reaching. plus that wasnt an insult, it was advice. i never said you are going to do it. i just said in case you ever do feel the urge.... plus it wasnt bc you agree with building the mosque, it was bc of your blind love for all things muslim in all the peaceful wonderful muslim countries you have been to. do you really expect us to believe in all your travels among the billion muslims that you havent once, not a single time, heard muslims advocate violence and war against christianity? either my bs detector is fubar or you are lying or you are deceiving yourself and drinking the kool aid. all three options arent good.
however please accept my apologies for hurting your feelings mr "I don't parade around as a soldier as it's not what my job is in the Army" SOLDIERfortide.

your argument is weak and your credibilty is starting to get strained. however i do like how you are standing firm on your opinion. maybe you and nybf could hang out and trade stories.

basically they have the right to build the mosque there.
is it in good taste? no
is the imam there a freaky religious zealot that seems to not be among the moderate muslims? it would appear so.
as such, they shouldnt build it, especially bc of the type of people he represents. if a true moderate muslim who advocated peace and unity wanted to build it, then perhaps i would support it.

 

[SoldierForTide]

you are reaching. plus that wasnt an insult, it was advice. i never said you are going to do it. i just said in case you ever do feel the urge.... plus it wasnt bc you agree with building the mosque, it was bc of your blind love for all things muslim in all the peaceful wonderful muslim countries you have been to. do you really expect us to believe in all your travels among the billion muslims that you havent once, not a single time, heard muslims advocate violence and war against christianity? either my bs detector is fubar or you are lying or you are deceiving yourself and drinking the kool aid. all three options arent good.
however please accept my apologies for hurting your feelings mr "I don't parade around as a soldier as it's not what my job is in the Army" SOLDIERfortide.

I don't know how you don't think that your comment could be thought of as implying that I could kill my friends, but whatever, fine.

Also, I don't have blind love for Muslims, I just don't think all of them are inherently evil. Applying a blanket statement like that is not right, but I can't convince you of that.

Most of the people I have talked to have been fairly level-headed. Granted, some where whack-jobs, but I never heard of the basis of their fighting to be Islam vs. Christianity. The Taliban for example want to remove Western influence from its borders as outlined in the Deobandi school of Islam. Does that include Christians? Probably, seeing as how many Americans are Christian, so I guess you could take that angle to say "Islam hates Christianity", which, sadly for you, isn't true. You can keep stating it as fact, but it's not me you need to convince to follow your viewpoint.

Lastly, as I stated before it's not my job to parade around as a soldier in the Army. I also don't go by my TF's login as my first name. The only reason I made this name is because it was the only thing I could think of and I was a little younger, so I apologize if you cannot understand that. My credibility on an internet message board does not bother me, whether you listen or not is entirely up to you. I'm not here to influence you, but not everyone feels like you (or me), because (guess what), it's your right and there's nothing wrong with it. I feel comfortable with myself for not generalizing such a large group of people and if you feel comfortable doing the opposite, then great.

your argument is weak and your credibilty is starting to get strained. however i do like how you are standing firm on your opinion. maybe you and nybf could hang out and trade stories.

basically they have the right to build the mosque there.
is it in good taste? no
is the imam there a freaky religious zealot that seems to not be among the moderate muslims? it would appear so.
as such, they shouldnt build it, especially bc of the type of people he represents. if a true moderate muslim who advocated peace and unity wanted to build it, then perhaps i would support it.

Maybe I'm an idiot, I'll give you that, but I still haven't gotten one good reason why we should suspend our basic principles and adopt the same philosophies as our enemies.

The whole process was valid. So, I'm not sure how you view democracy. Maybe you think elected officials (local in this case) should make decisions because it might upset people, regardless if its counter to the whole basis of our country to begin with, even though they take oath to defend those very principles.

So from what I gather it shouldn't be built because to you it's in bad taste and the imam might be a religious zealot. That's your "strongest" argument. The unforseen consequences of the government blocking it doesn't even cross your mind, nor do you really seem to even care, so long as those Christian-hating Muslims don't build a religious center 2 blocks away from Ground Zero.

 

[gmart74]

Maybe I'm an idiot, I'll give you that, but I still haven't gotten one good reason why we should suspend our basic principles and adopt the same philosophies as our enemies.

The whole process was valid. So, I'm not sure how you view democracy. Maybe you think elected officials (local in this case) should make decisions because it might upset people, regardless if its counter to the whole basis of our country to begin with, even though they take oath to defend those very principles.

So from what I gather it shouldn't be built because to you it's in bad taste and the imam might be a religious zealot. That's your "strongest" argument. The unforseen consequences of the government blocking it doesn't even cross your mind, nor do you really seem to even care, so long as those Christian-hating Muslims don't build a religious center 2 blocks away from Ground Zero.

i dont think the gov should block it. i just believe there are consequences to poking a hornet's nest. if a truly peaceful mosque was built there and preached love and tolerance for all people then it would be a good thing. if, however, this imam builds it, and then starts up with his radical message, dont be surprised when someone firebombs the damn thing and hurts a lot of innocent people. the people in that area had friends and family die in front of their faces. do you really think any good will come out of a mosque preaching hatred and overthrow of the US that close to so many inflamed emotions?
there is freedom of speech in this country, but sometimes ya gotta know when to not use it. my problem with this mosque is that it will only cause more hate and distrust between the religions and between americans rather than bringing us together.

 

[Hamilton]

I also find it humorous that someone who represents the full force of the American Military finds it proper to characterize Muslims in Islamist-controlled countries as "peaceful."

Perhaps you should visit one of these countries out of uniform and unarmed. I'm sure you won't find even the every day Muslim nearly as "peaceful" as you have otherwise.

 

[SoldierForTide]

I also find it humorous that someone who represents the full force of the American Military finds it proper to characterize Muslims in Islamist-controlled countries as "peaceful."

Perhaps you should visit one of these countries out of uniform and unarmed. I'm sure you won't find even the every day Muslim nearly as "peaceful" as you have otherwise.

I very rarely am required to wear uniform when I'm down range, but I know that doesn't support your argument, so forget I said that.


What I find funny is a guy sitting at his house 7,000 miles away trying to generalize the dynamics of an entire religion spanning many different parts of the world.

You also interspese (and maybe confuse) Islamic governments with the general populace. Sure, some Islamic governments are cruel and reprssive, I think we can all agree on that. But do they represent all Muslims? Not at all, especially with the level of political corruption in many of these places.

 

[SoldierForTide]

i dont think the gov should block it. i just believe there are consequences to poking a hornet's nest. if a truly peaceful mosque was built there and preached love and tolerance for all people then it would be a good thing. if, however, this imam builds it, and then starts up with his radical message, dont be surprised when someone firebombs the damn thing and hurts a lot of innocent people. the people in that area had friends and family die in front of their faces. do you really think any good will come out of a mosque preaching hatred and overthrow of the US that close to so many inflamed emotions?
there is freedom of speech in this country, but sometimes ya gotta know when to not use it. my problem with this mosque is that it will only cause more hate and distrust between the religions and between americans rather than bringing us together.

Do I care if any good comes out of it? Not really, its your right to voice displeasure, protest the structure, whatever (minus firebombing civilians). The imam has already used his freedom of speech, but you can still be ....ed at him. The fallout for this guy will be may more if he is allowed to go ahead and people get upset, rather than telling the guy he can't build and then giving him more fodder for whatever agenda he has.

 

[ValuJet]

Now the co-founder and one of the leaders of Hamas has given his endorsement of the Ground Zero mosque. Why shouldn't we be surprised?

68% of Americans are opposed to this moving forward. The other 32%, including President Obama, apparently are "useful idiots" in this pathetic charade.

Maybe the U.S. State Department can pay travel expenses for Mahmoud al-Zahar to give the opening prayers in this place when it opens, then select a few sites in lower Manhattan for car bombings.

This Is Bullcrap

 

[RamJamHam]

What I find funny is a guy sitting at his house 7,000 miles away trying to generalize the dynamics of an entire religion spanning many different parts of the world.

You also interspese (and maybe confuse) Islamic governments with the general populace. Sure, some Islamic governments are cruel and reprssive, I think we can all agree on that. But do they represent all Muslims? Not at all, especially with the level of political corruption in many of these places.

You don't actually have to be in or ever have been to Saudi Arabia, which is pne of our supposed "allies," much less Iraq, Iran, etc., to know what their general attitude toward all things non-Muslim is. For just one example, how are US troops advised to display their Christian Bibles when deployed to predominately Muslim countries? And if I just go over there as a citizen, is it even legal for me to have one? I think the answer is yes, as long as I do not intend to use it to convert Muslims. How hard is that to come up with?

Also, it appears that you need to study the interplay between governments of Muslim countries, like Saudi Arabia, and the radical Muslim clergy therein. I think you'll find a surprising relationship.

 

[Hamilton]

I very rarely am required to wear uniform when I'm down range, but I know that doesn't support your argument, so forget I said that.


What I find funny is a guy sitting at his house 7,000 miles away trying to generalize the dynamics of an entire religion spanning many different parts of the world.

You also interspese (and maybe confuse) Islamic governments with the general populace. Sure, some Islamic governments are cruel and reprssive, I think we can all agree on that. But do they represent all Muslims? Not at all, especially with the level of political corruption in many of these places.

Umm...I have been there. As a part of a humanitarian (unarmed, powerless) organization. So...

 

[Relayer]

Charles Krauthammer's article on the subject.

washingtonpost.com

"Location matters. Especially this location. Ground Zero is the site of the greatest mass murder in American history -- perpetrated by Muslims of a particular Islamist orthodoxy in whose cause they died and in whose name they killed.

Of course that strain represents only a minority of Muslims. Islam is no more intrinsically Islamist than present-day Germany is Nazi -- yet despite contemporary Germany's innocence, no German of goodwill would even think of proposing a German cultural center at, say, Treblinka."

Which makes you wonder about the goodwill behind Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf's proposal. This is a man who has called U.S. policy "an accessory to the crime" of 9/11 and, when recently asked whether Hamas is a terrorist organization, replied, "I'm not a politician. . . . The issue of terrorism is a very complex question."