Russia Invades Ukraine XVII

[crimsonaudio]

I keep going back to us promising to protect Ukraine if they hand over their nukes. They did and we haven't and it bothers me greatly.

That's not what the Budapest Memorandum said. The US followed every aspect of the Budapest Memorandum as outlined and agreed upon. Anything we've done beyond this has been out of sheer good will.

According to the three memoranda, Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively removing all Soviet nuclear weapons from their soil, and that they agreed to the following:

1. Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders (in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act).
2. Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the signatories to the memorandum, and undertake that none of their weapons will ever be used against these countries, except in cases of self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.
3. Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine, the Republic of Belarus and Kazakhstan of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
4. Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
5. Not to use nuclear weapons against any non–nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.: 169–171 
6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

As long as Putin is alive, he wants all of Ukraine, but will settle for what he now has.

As for getting their militaries together, Denmark had an election in which the main question was: increase social safety net spending or increase military spending and, even after Russia's invasion, Danes opted for increasing social safety net spending. When pressed on the question, Danes said, "If push comes to shove, the Americans will bail us out."

And it ain't just Ukraine. In his manifesto, he wants Alaska back too. I got curious a while back, after reading that, and looked up the number of Russians in Alaska when Seward bought it. It was 4K+, most of whom were itinerant trappers, traders, etc. Actually, if we're talking about ethnic Russians, not other ethnic groups who've been forced to adopt the language, they're not entitled to 95% of the land they call "Russia"...

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Ukraine sat by with little resistance then. This time Ukraine was all in.

There's good reason for that. Crimea has been Russian in language and orientation for long time, at least dating from when Stalin expelled the Tatars. Khrushchev literally gave Crimea to Ukraine, at a time when it amounted only to a reassignment of one Soviet administrative region to another region. Remember that Nikita's wife was Ukrainian. The Donbas is an entirely different and more complex question...

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Okay?

Our arming of the Allies in the early 1940's was what got us dragged into WWII. I'd rather not get dragged into WWIII.

Thank God we got "dragged" in. I'd hate to see what Europe looked like today or what the intervening 75 years would have looked like. Since I'm fluent in German, I could at least still speak to the British and French. If Putin is not stopped now, the pond between us and west Putania is going to look very narrow...

 

[crimsonaudio]

Thank God we got "dragged" in. I'd hate to see what Europe looked like today or what the intervening 75 years would have looked like. Since I'm fluent in German, I could at least still speak to the British and French. If Putin is not stopped now, the pond between us and west Putania is going to look very narrow...

Yes, I agree US involvement in WWII was in total a good thing - you know I'm a bit of a buff.

My point is the world is very different now, and watching Putin/Russia struggle with Ukraine doesn't give me much confidence that they can attack NATO with much success.

 

[AWRTR]

Yes, I agree US involvement in WWII was in total a good thing - you know I'm a bit of a buff.

My point is the world is very different now, and watching Putin/Russia struggle with Ukraine doesn't give me much confidence that they can attack NATO with much success.

If he did something that invoked article 5. Russia wouldn’t have an army or airforce in less than a week. He would have to go nuclear. I don’t think he go after NATO. I get the deal with his manifesto, but his writings of what he wants and what he knows he’s capable of are two different things. I want Lambo and I can write about it, but I know I can’t get one.

 

[Tidewater]

The Biden Administration has urged Ukraine to conscript 18-25 year olds.
Why Zelensky’s refusal to conscript more men has torpedoed his relationship with Washington
I think the crisis has arrived at the front.

“Even with the money, even with the munitions, there have to be people on the front lines to deal with the Russian aggression,” he told reporters.
“But, for example, getting younger people into the fight, we think, many of us think, is necessary. Right now, 18- to 25-year-olds are not in the fight,” he later added in an interview with Reuters.

Zelensky has taken to social media.

“I told president Trump that Putin fears only him and, perhaps, China,”

 

[Bamaro]

Zelinsky needs to take a class in bootlicking. That's the way to deal with trump's threats.

 

[Tidewater]

Zelinsky needs to take a class in bootlicking. That's the way to deal with trump's threats.

Five years ago, the Poles asked the US to station an armored division in Poland and offered to name the installation "Fort Trump." Clever move by the Poles. They knew their audience. If ever a president could be schmoozed like that it was that guy.

 

[CrimsonNagus]

As someone who supports the Ukraine's right to defend themselves and I don't want to see Russia gain any ground or win, even I am growing tired of the money being spent on this war. This is basically an American war now in every way except the soldiers doing the fighting. Maybe it is time for the rest of the world to foot the majority of the bill for a while instead of the US.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

Maybe it is time for the rest of the world to foot the majority of the bill for a while instead of the US.

They don't even want to foot the bill for their own defense. Sure, they might toss a couple bucks into the pot, but it's just a gesture. Plus, I'm reasonably certain that a lot of our NATO allies believe that the U.S. started this whole thing and therefore, it's our problem to solve, not theirs.

 

[CrimsonNagus]

They don't even want to foot the bill for their own defense. Sure, they might toss a couple bucks into the pot, but it's just a gesture. Plus, I'm reasonably certainly that a lot of our NATO allies believe that the U.S. started this whole thing and therefore, it's our problem to solve, not theirs.

How did we start anything? Did we ask Russia to invade Ukraine?

 

[crimsonaudio]

They don't even want to foot the bill for their own defense. Sure, they might toss a couple bucks into the pot, but it's just a gesture. Plus, I'm reasonably certainly that a lot of our NATO allies believe that the U.S. started this whole thing and therefore, it's our problem to solve, not theirs.

If the Euros truly believed that Putin was going to attack a NATO country after he was done with Ukraine they'd be pumping money into national defense (and Ukraine) like there's no tomorrow.

The fact that they are only spending marginally more on national defense me believe the 'Putin will take over Europe' is largely bluster - likely propaganda from the military-industrial complex, who are making money hand-over-fist via the continuation of this war.

Defence Spending for Europe’s Security – How Much Is Enough?

European states have enjoyed three decades of peace and relative external security and have cut their expenditure on defence for many years. Russia’s attack on Ukraine, however, has increased the geopolitical risks and called Europe for a reassessment of its own security and defence...

www.intereconomics.eu

 

[CrimsonJazz]

How did we start anything? Did we ask Russia to invade Ukraine?

It is widely accepted by a lot of people that the 2014 coup in Ukraine was orchestrated by the U.S. Of course, no one here would admit to such a thing, but do your own research if you're interested.

 

[cdub55]

They don't even want to foot the bill for their own defense. Sure, they might toss a couple bucks into the pot, but it's just a gesture. Plus, I'm reasonably certainly that a lot of our NATO allies believe that the U.S. started this whole thing and therefore, it's our problem to solve, not theirs.

War = Money

Always been that way, always will be that way. Gives politicians a phenomenal platform to increase spending. The Press Secretary making an announcement that we are sending 100 billion dollars to Antarctica to save the penguins doesn't quite pass the smell test for most. But war...oh we got to send it. What if the big bad Russians take over all of Europe and go on a massive tour of World Domination like Hitler!!?? Scary stuff. We will just pray for the penguins for now...

 

[Its On A Slab]

It is widely accepted by a lot of people that the 2014 coup in Ukraine was orchestrated by the U.S. Of course, no one here would admit to such a thing, but do your own research if you're interested.

TASS agrees with this statement.

Ukraine’s 2014 coup was CIA’s political mistake — Putin

The Russian president noted that the US agency had achieved its goal of changing the government but failed to see what it would evolve into

tass.com

 

[Jon]

hey Jazz

do you know what TASS Is?

 

[CrimsonJazz]

hey Jazz

do you know what TASS Is?

Yes. I was thanking for the link, not the point.

 

[Jon]

Yes. I was thanking for the link, not the point.

yes, I suppose it is nice for you to get a direct link to Russian propaganda rather than waiting for Fox news to present it to you

 

[CrimsonJazz]

yes, I suppose it is nice for you to get a direct link to Russian propaganda rather than waiting for Fox news to present it to you

Nah, I was curious what the Russian WaPo would’ve looked like.