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The 2024 DNC primary thread

Bazza said:
The problem is optics.

This happened:

In the morning of 7 October, as Palestinian militants in Gaza launched a barrage of over 5,000 rockets against Israeli cities and kibbutzim while some 3,000 Palestinian militants breached the Gaza–Israel barrier. Over 1,000 Israeli civilians were killed in more than a dozen massacres, including the Re'im music festival massacre. Eight Israeli military bases situated near the Gaza border were attacked. Over 200 civilians and Israeli soldiers were abducted to the Gaza Strip. At least 44 countries, mostly from the Western world, characterized the massacres of civilians as terrorism

And then this:

Aerial view of Nov. 4th National Protest for Palestine in Washington D.C. Activists say the crowd is 100,000 people and growing.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720891856999879087

It sure does "look like" support for the attack on Israel to me.....and I'm sure a lot of other people too.......
Click to expand...
I may be wrong, but I strongly suspect this large crowd is objecting to Israel's response to the attack by Hamas rather than supporting Hamas directly. IOW, they have friends and relatives in Gaza who are getting bombed, therefore they are protesting.

I cannot imagine why any large group of people would support a militant, terrorist organization.
 
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jthomas666 said:
Are they openly siding with Hamas, or are they openly with Palestinians who are being killed by indiscriminate attacks?
Click to expand...
Go Bama said:
I may be wrong, but I strongly suspect this large crowd is objecting to Israel's response to the attack by Hamas rather than supporting Hamas directly. IOW, they have friends and relatives in Gaza who are getting bombed, therefore they are protesting.

I cannot imagine why any large group of people would support a militant, terrorist organization.
Click to expand...
the conflation of palestine and hamas is purposeful
 
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Bazza said:
The problem is optics.

This happened:

In the morning of 7 October, as Palestinian militants in Gaza launched a barrage of over 5,000 rockets against Israeli cities and kibbutzim while some 3,000 Palestinian militants breached the Gaza–Israel barrier. Over 1,000 Israeli civilians were killed in more than a dozen massacres, including the Re'im music festival massacre. Eight Israeli military bases situated near the Gaza border were attacked. Over 200 civilians and Israeli soldiers were abducted to the Gaza Strip. At least 44 countries, mostly from the Western world, characterized the massacres of civilians as terrorism

And then this:

Aerial view of Nov. 4th National Protest for Palestine in Washington D.C. Activists say the crowd is 100,000 people and growing.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720891856999879087

It sure does "look like" support for the attack on Israel to me.....and I'm sure a lot of other people too.......
Click to expand...
You (conveniently?) left out that between those two events, Israel bombed hospitals and refugees camps while the government made genocidal statements and stated their intentions to occupy Gaza indefinitely.
 
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So I have resigned that polls are just not reliable any more in the digital age. Personally, I would be more inclined to believe the polls are created to be biased to generate a headline that can be used in an article. The article is then ran on different media outlets with a know demographic. The click througha are measured. The article are slightly varied to nuance the response from the click through rate.

The articles themselves are the polls...
 
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jthomas666 said:
You (conveniently?) left out that between those two events, Israel bombed hospitals and refugees camps while the government made genocidal statements and stated their intentions to occupy Gaza indefinitely.
Click to expand...

Might be too much 'nuance' for the optics narrative I laid out.

That said......

From what I have read.....you cannot distinguish between who is Hamas and who isn't because they all dress the same way. Hamas does this on purpose as a "disguise".

They also (again going by what is being reported) hide behind the civilians. Using hospitals and ambulances as shields.

And they have abducted a lot of innocent civilians.

All of the above is normally considered war crimes.

And also (again going by what is being reported) the majority of Palestinians want Hamas to 'govern' over them. And....the majority of Palestinians want all of Israel to be destroyed.

Adding to all of this the president himself said the casualty reports coming out of Gaza cannot be trusted.

I don't really know what anyone wants Israel to do at this point. I mean - I don't even know who is in charge of the Palestinians who can speak for them. All we hear from is Hamas.

It's a sucky situation for sure but getting back to my original point......since it was Hamas who attacked Israel first in such a vicious manner.....most people (IMHO) don't really get why these demonstrators are supporting Palestine instead of condemning Hamas.
 
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Bazza said:
And also (again going by what is being reported) the majority of Palestinians want Hamas to 'govern' over them. And....the majority of Palestinians want all of Israel to be destroyed.
Click to expand...

Citations needed.

Let me assist:

www.washingtoninstitute.org

Polls Show Majority of Gazans Were Against Breaking Ceasefire; Hamas and Hezbollah Unpopular Among Key Arab Publics

Recent Washington Institute polls have tracked Gazans’ views on Hamas and the ceasefire with Israel, along with a wider regional decline in popularity for Hamas and Hezbollah.
www.washingtoninstitute.org www.washingtoninstitute.org


According to the latest Washington Institute polling, conducted in July 2023, Hamas’s decision to break the ceasefire was not a popular move. While the majority of Gazans (65%) did think it likely that there would be “a large military conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza” this year, a similar percentage (62%) supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel. Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.” Moreover, across the region, Hamas has lost popularity over time among many Arab publics. This decline in popularity may have been one of the motivating factors behind the group’s decision to attack.

In fact, Gazan frustration with Hamas governance is clear; most Gazans expressed a preference for PA administration and security officials over Hamas—the majority of Gazans (70%) supported a proposal of the PA sending “officials and security officers to Gaza to take over the administration there, with Hamas giving up separate armed units,” including 47% who strongly agreed. Nor is this a new view—this proposal has had majority support in Gaza since first polled by The Washington Institute in 2014.
 
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I honestly don’t know what to think here. We have always supported Israel but their hands aren’t always clean. I don’t believe that opposing actions by Israel makes you an anti-Semite any more than opposing actions by the Arabs makes you a bigot against them.

This fight has gone on for thousands of years and it isn’t suddenly going to end now. My opinion isn’t going to change anything so I’m not going to dig deep into figuring out who the bad guys are.
 
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Bazza said:
Might be too much 'nuance' for the optics narrative I laid out.

That said......

From what I have read.....you cannot distinguish between who is Hamas and who isn't because they all dress the same way. Hamas does this on purpose as a "disguise".

They also (again going by what is being reported) hide behind the civilians. Using hospitals and ambulances as shields.

And they have abducted a lot of innocent civilians.

All of the above is normally considered war crimes.

And also (again going by what is being reported) the majority of Palestinians want Hamas to 'govern' over them. And....the majority of Palestinians want all of Israel to be destroyed.

Adding to all of this the president himself said the casualty reports coming out of Gaza cannot be trusted.

I don't really know what anyone wants Israel to do at this point. I mean - I don't even know who is in charge of the Palestinians who can speak for them. All we hear from is Hamas.

It's a sucky situation for sure but getting back to my original point......since it was Hamas who attacked Israel first in such a vicious manner.....most people (IMHO) don't really get why these demonstrators are supporting Palestine instead of condemning Hamas.
Click to expand...
I would point out that there has been no election held since Hamas took over in 2007, so we have no way of knowing if a majority support Hamas...
 
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92tide said:
i've seen it mentioned that about 1/2 of the population in gaza are under 18
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That’s true. Extremely young population. Hamas starts the brainwashing and radicalization early. You should see some of the children’s programming they put out. Antisemitism isn’t a strong enough word. It’s as bad as anything the nazi’s propaganda arm ever produced.
 
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