The running game... or lack thereof

[RammerJammer14]

So far Arch has been a bust, imo. I know the analysts point to his offensive line but even when he has time to throw he's not very good or consistent. He'll make a good throw here and there, but other times his throws are off target and late.

Film Guy did a good 1hr breakdown of the Kentucky game and was pointing out his poor mechanics and reads. Overall seems to have talent but poor fundamentals and possibly lackluster QB coaching- which is weird for a team lead by Sark.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Film Guy did a good 1hr breakdown of the Kentucky game and was pointing out his poor mechanics and reads. Overall seems to have talent but poor fundamentals and possibly lackluster QB coaching- which is weird for a team lead by Sark.

His bad mechanics have been pointed out by just about every on air quarterback analyst. It has been a common theme about his game all season. I'm with you, I have no idea how he could be under Sark this long and have bad mechanics.

 

[cdub55]

Film Guy did a good 1hr breakdown of the Kentucky game and was pointing out his poor mechanics and reads. Overall seems to have talent but poor fundamentals and possibly lackluster QB coaching- which is weird for a team lead by Sark.

AJ Milwee is the Co-OC (passing game coordinator) and QB coach. He worked at Bama as an analyst under Saban after he left Akron. He was at the time the youngest OC in the country when Bowden was there. AJ is a good coach and friend of mine. It could also be a case of where Manning is hard to coach. When you have the pedigree and family that he has it may not be easy to correct things when you are being told differently by your Uncles/Dad/Grandfather etc. I doubt AJ has the power either to bench Manning which can ties his hands even more. Doesn't look like it is a good situation to be in.

 

[SeventhHeavenRanch7777@gm]

My take is coaching. I believe we have the personnel but we hwve not had a good OL coach in a few years. Jam seems to want to run right at the park of OL/DL atacked up. Sometimes he will bounce out like he should. We really need to get better at pass blocking and run blocking. Get tall lean muscular OL not overweight slow guys. Just my two cents. To win a NC we need a dominate OL

 

[Bamabuzzard]

AJ Milwee is the Co-OC (passing game coordinator) and QB coach. He worked at Bama as an analyst under Saban after he left Akron. He was at the time the youngest OC in the country when Bowden was there. AJ is a good coach and friend of mine. It could also be a case of where Manning is hard to coach. When you have the pedigree and family that he has it may not be easy to correct things when you are being told differently by your Uncles/Dad/Grandfather etc. I doubt AJ has the power either to bench Manning which can ties his hands even more. Doesn't look like it is a good situation to be in.

I remember Peyton (Manning) being asked whether or not he "helped" or "worked with" his nephew on quarterbacking. He basically said "no", that he and Eli stay out of it and let Arch and his dad Cooper do their own thing. But, they were always there for advice if/when he called, but they did not actively work with him.

 

[RammerJammer14]

AJ Milwee is the Co-OC (passing game coordinator) and QB coach. He worked at Bama as an analyst under Saban after he left Akron. He was at the time the youngest OC in the country when Bowden was there. AJ is a good coach and friend of mine. It could also be a case of where Manning is hard to coach. When you have the pedigree and family that he has it may not be easy to correct things when you are being told differently by your Uncles/Dad/Grandfather etc. I doubt AJ has the power either to bench Manning which can ties his hands even more. Doesn't look like it is a good situation to be in.

Thanks. Yeah I have no insight whatsoever, just positing possible explanations. Not saying this applies to your friend but sometimes too good position coaches can just get spread too thin across multiple responsibilities and can’t dedicate their full energy to the position.

 

[arthurdawg]

I think the answer to our defensive issues (outside of firing Wommack) is recruiting/portaling in better LB's and defensive tackles. Right now we just don't very good LB play and the DT's aren't as disruptive as they need to be. I think we need to get a little bigger at the DT position so we don't get pushed around by the bigger offensive lines and try to get back to getting LB's in here like the great ones under Saban. This staff seems to be on a roll with recruits so hopefully that will mean bringing in the most talented LB's and DT's.

I think our linebackers are good guys who are working hard, but I agree, we need better talent.

Lawson is a good one, but I think his injury is still a factor.

Jefferson has a high motor, but often is in the wrong position, and is too small. But he has played better the last few games, kudos for working hard and improving.

The other guy they brought in seems to be a plugger, but a rung below what we need for an every down guy.

Again, they all seem to be hard workers and getting what they can from their talent, just not what we brought to the table with the best Saban defensese

 

[TideMan09]

I honestly think we're more talented on defense, than the production & numbers are showing, im just not sold on this defensive coaching staff too be really honest..

The talent has made up, for the lack of great coaching, on the defensive side of the ball..

 

[KrAzY3]

But Mac's team IS the exception to what you're talking about, regardless of the quality of RB personnel. We're past the era where there must be a balance number of run attempts to pass attempts. Rather, a team needs to play to its strengths personnel-wise. IF you have top shelf WR's, you're taking touches away from them by giving the ball to ineffective RB's (by comparison). IF you have top shelf RB's, you don't take touches away from them by throwing to less effective WR's. Any way you look at it, our WR group in Mac's year was better than our RB group... as was the case with LSU in 2019. CKD is proving that this age-old philosophy of "balance" doesn't always hold up. What is true is that a team must have an ability to control clock to a degree - otherwise your defense is on the field a lot during games. This is the new age of college football.

I would note that there's two different but related things I am addressing. One is balance, making sure the team isn't one dimensional. The other is over-reliance on quarterback play. I believe the latter is the biggest concern. It is a great risk if you let your success or failure rest entirely on the shoulders of a single player.

Mind you, I think DeBoer and Grubb are actually attempting to address this, it's just that like Saban and the passing game, it just isn't their area of expertise. I am also not in agreement that DeBoer is proving this isn't a concern. Firstly, this system relies on excellent QB play but you won't always have that. He is 31-4 with Penix and Ty. We can both agree that's great. However, without them he's 21-10. I think we can both agree that's not good enough.

Also since you brought up LSU, they still were effective running the ball. They averaged 4.7 per rush and scored 32 rushing TDs. Alabama is averaging 3.7 and has 8 rushing TDs. It's not really comparable. But let's get into the other problem with this approach. If your QB is hurt or has a bad game, you in trouble. Let's see how this played out. Against Michigan, Penix was 27/51 for 255 yards with 1 TD and 2 INTs. They ran for an averaged of 2.3 while Michigan ran for an average of 8. That was not successful. It works for wins, but we're talking championships and it fell flat.

Now, you might counter that Washington lacked talent. Not that year. They had 13 6th year seniors, they had 13 5th year players, and they had 10 first round draft picks including 2 top 10. They were talented and experienced. They had as many draft picks as Alabama (which almost beat Michigan). Yet, they were utterly dominated, losing 34-13.

This is the weakness of over-reliance on QB play. It's also the difference in 2020, they had amazing QB play, but they also had a running back that could get it done as well. Along those lines, let's see the two starts that Tua and Bryce had in championship games: Tua was 22-34 for 295 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs. Young was 35-57 for 369 yards, 1 TD and 2 INTs.

All three lost by multiple scores! If you combine those three efforts, and mind you this is from 3 NFL starters you get this: 84/142, 919 yards, 4 TDs and 6 INTs. You'll note it wasn't that they were bad at passing so much so that once they become one dimensional they had to force things, resulting in more turnovers than touchdowns. This is the liability that over QB reliance creates, it requires excellent QB play against a defense playing the pass.

There are two exceptions in this QB-reliant window, the first was Hurts with Tua coming in as a backup. As I said before though it re-calibrated the offense. In fact, it resulted in an almost perfectly balanced offense. It was a good running team that was struggling to pass, Tua came in and fixed that and they came back and won. Then there was Mac, certainly not balanced, but it wasn't as overly QB reliant! Najee and the running game were still very effective. He had 1,466 yards in 13 games and 26 TDs! This kept defenses honest and this also meant that Alabama could still run when they needed to. Obviously that worked well.

So, long story short I'm not arguing that you shouldn't be good at passing. I'm just saying you shouldn't be bad at running... You need to have a good running (back) game developed or else it will almost certainly catch up to you.

 

[STONECOLDSABAN]

I would note that there's two different but related things I am addressing. One is balance, making sure the team isn't one dimensional. The other is over-reliance on quarterback play. I believe the latter is the biggest concern. It is a great risk if you let your success or failure rest entirely on the shoulders of a single player.

Mind you, I think DeBoer and Grubb are actually attempting to address this, it's just that like Saban and the passing game, it just isn't their area of expertise. I am also not in agreement that DeBoer is proving this isn't a concern. Firstly, this system relies on excellent QB play but you won't always have that. He is 31-4 with Penix and Ty. We can both agree that's great. However, without them he's 21-10. I think we can both agree that's not good enough.

Also since you brought up LSU, they still were effective running the ball. They averaged 4.7 per rush and scored 32 rushing TDs. Alabama is averaging 3.7 and has 8 rushing TDs. It's not really comparable. But let's get into the other problem with this approach. If your QB is hurt or has a bad game, you in trouble. Let's see how this played out. Against Michigan, Penix was 27/51 for 255 yards with 1 TD and 2 INTs. They ran for an averaged of 2.3 while Michigan ran for an average of 8. That was not successful. It works for wins, but we're talking championships and it fell flat.

Now, you might counter that Washington lacked talent. Not that year. They had 13 6th year seniors, they had 13 5th year players, and they had 10 first round draft picks including 2 top 10. They were talented and experienced. They had as many draft picks as Alabama (which almost beat Michigan). Yet, they were utterly dominated, losing 34-13.

This is the weakness of over-reliance on QB play. It's also the difference in 2020, they had amazing QB play, but they also had a running back that could get it done as well. It made a huge difference. Along those lines, let's see the two starts that Tua and Bryce had in championship games: Tua was 22-34 for 295 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs. Young was 35-57 for 369 yards, 1 TD and 2 INTs.

All three lost by multiple scores! If you combine those three efforts, and mind you this is from 3 NFL starters you get this: 84/142, 919 yards, 4 TDs and 6 INTs. You'll note it wasn't that they were bad at passing so much so that once they become one dimensional they had to force things, resulting in more turnovers than touchdowns. This is the liability that over QB reliance creates, it requires excellent QB play against a defense playing the pass.

There are two exceptions in this QB-reliant window, the first was Hurts with Tua coming in as a backup. As I said before though it re-calibrated the offense. In fact, it resulted in an almost perfectly balanced offense. It was a good running team that was struggling to pass, Tua came in and fixed that and they came back and won. Then there was Mac, certainly not balanced, but it wasn't as overly QB reliant! Najee and the running game were still very effective. He had 1,466 yards in 13 games and 26 TDs! This kept defenses honest and this also meant that Alabama could still run when they needed to. Obviously that worked well.

So, long story short I'm not arguing that you shouldn't be good at passing. I'm just saying you shouldn't be bad at running... You need to have a good running (back) game developed or else it will almost certainly catch up to you.

Not and X’s and O’s Guy. But It’s kind of like when spurrier was at Florida. They were a passing team but his very best teams (1991, 1996, 2001) had a run game that could at least compliment the fun and gun.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I would note that there's two different but related things I am addressing. One is balance, making sure the team isn't one dimensional. The other is over-reliance on quarterback play. I believe the latter is the biggest concern. It is a great risk if you let your success or failure rest entirely on the shoulders of a single player.

Mind you, I think DeBoer and Grubb are actually attempting to address this, it's just that like Saban and the passing game, it just isn't their area of expertise. I am also not in agreement that DeBoer is proving this isn't a concern. Firstly, this system relies on excellent QB play but you won't always have that. He is 31-4 with Penix and Ty. We can both agree that's great. However, without them he's 21-10. I think we can both agree that's not good enough.

Also since you brought up LSU, they still were effective running the ball. They averaged 4.7 per rush and scored 32 rushing TDs. Alabama is averaging 3.7 and has 8 rushing TDs. It's not really comparable. But let's get into the other problem with this approach. If your QB is hurt or has a bad game, you in trouble. Let's see how this played out. Against Michigan, Penix was 27/51 for 255 yards with 1 TD and 2 INTs. They ran for an averaged of 2.3 while Michigan ran for an average of 8. That was not successful. It works for wins, but we're talking championships and it fell flat.

Now, you might counter that Washington lacked talent. Not that year. They had 13 6th year seniors, they had 13 5th year players, and they had 10 first round draft picks including 2 top 10. They were talented and experienced. They had as many draft picks as Alabama (which almost beat Michigan). Yet, they were utterly dominated, losing 34-13.

This is the weakness of over-reliance on QB play. It's also the difference in 2020, they had amazing QB play, but they also had a running back that could get it done as well. Along those lines, let's see the two starts that Tua and Bryce had in championship games: Tua was 22-34 for 295 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs. Young was 35-57 for 369 yards, 1 TD and 2 INTs.

All three lost by multiple scores! If you combine those three efforts, and mind you this is from 3 NFL starters you get this: 84/142, 919 yards, 4 TDs and 6 INTs. You'll note it wasn't that they were bad at passing so much so that once they become one dimensional they had to force things, resulting in more turnovers than touchdowns. This is the liability that over QB reliance creates, it requires excellent QB play against a defense playing the pass.

There are two exceptions in this QB-reliant window, the first was Hurts with Tua coming in as a backup. As I said before though it re-calibrated the offense. In fact, it resulted in an almost perfectly balanced offense. It was a good running team that was struggling to pass, Tua came in and fixed that and they came back and won. Then there was Mac, certainly not balanced, but it wasn't as overly QB reliant! Najee and the running game were still very effective. He had 1,466 yards in 13 games and 26 TDs! This kept defenses honest and this also meant that Alabama could still run when they needed to. Obviously that worked well.

So, long story short I'm not arguing that you shouldn't be good at passing. I'm just saying you shouldn't be bad at running... You need to have a good running (back) game developed or else it will almost certainly catch up to you.

I think DeBoer and Grubb are trying to implement the run game, so much so I've watched enough times during games where I felt like we needed to put the dagger in and start taking kill shots yet Grubb commits to running the ball six out of the next ten plays. DeBoer has done A LOT of evolving this season and my guess is one of the things he's learned is we have to run the ball better. I just don't see how getting better at running the ball won't be a point of emphasis in the offseason. Especially seeing the few times we have run the ball well this season, how it impacted the clock and the game.

 

[arthurdawg]

It is definitely a balance and having complementary attacks on the ground and through the air.

And definitely play to your strengths. Kiffin bought us a ton of yardage and points by doing that in 2014. We weren't multi-dimensional, but he found what worked and ran with it. Heck, he'd run the same play 65 times in game if the opposing defense didn't adjust. And when they adjusted he was great at coming back with something different. And he still is.

 

[STONECOLDSABAN]

YES SIR!!! The Stallings era was when I was old enough to really become a Bama fan and I remember those toss sweeps. I remember Shaun Alexander getting those toss sweeps in Baton Rouge his freshman year and GOING OFF!!!!

I will say this as much as I love it..when it doesn’t work. It really puts you behind the chains. I wonder if that’s the reason we haven’t seen more of it. Not that we seem to have any problems Converting 2nd and 3rd and long. lol

 

[RammerJammer14]

I would note that there's two different but related things I am addressing. One is balance, making sure the team isn't one dimensional. The other is over-reliance on quarterback play. I believe the latter is the biggest concern. It is a great risk if you let your success or failure rest entirely on the shoulders of a single player.

Mind you, I think DeBoer and Grubb are actually attempting to address this, it's just that like Saban and the passing game, it just isn't their area of expertise. I am also not in agreement that DeBoer is proving this isn't a concern. Firstly, this system relies on excellent QB play but you won't always have that. He is 31-4 with Penix and Ty. We can both agree that's great. However, without them he's 21-10. I think we can both agree that's not good enough.

Also since you brought up LSU, they still were effective running the ball. They averaged 4.7 per rush and scored 32 rushing TDs. Alabama is averaging 3.7 and has 8 rushing TDs. It's not really comparable. But let's get into the other problem with this approach. If your QB is hurt or has a bad game, you in trouble. Let's see how this played out. Against Michigan, Penix was 27/51 for 255 yards with 1 TD and 2 INTs. They ran for an averaged of 2.3 while Michigan ran for an average of 8. That was not successful. It works for wins, but we're talking championships and it fell flat.

Now, you might counter that Washington lacked talent. Not that year. They had 13 6th year seniors, they had 13 5th year players, and they had 10 first round draft picks including 2 top 10. They were talented and experienced. They had as many draft picks as Alabama (which almost beat Michigan). Yet, they were utterly dominated, losing 34-13.

This is the weakness of over-reliance on QB play. It's also the difference in 2020, they had amazing QB play, but they also had a running back that could get it done as well. Along those lines, let's see the two starts that Tua and Bryce had in championship games: Tua was 22-34 for 295 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs. Young was 35-57 for 369 yards, 1 TD and 2 INTs.

All three lost by multiple scores! If you combine those three efforts, and mind you this is from 3 NFL starters you get this: 84/142, 919 yards, 4 TDs and 6 INTs. You'll note it wasn't that they were bad at passing so much so that once they become one dimensional they had to force things, resulting in more turnovers than touchdowns. This is the liability that over QB reliance creates, it requires excellent QB play against a defense playing the pass.

There are two exceptions in this QB-reliant window, the first was Hurts with Tua coming in as a backup. As I said before though it re-calibrated the offense. In fact, it resulted in an almost perfectly balanced offense. It was a good running team that was struggling to pass, Tua came in and fixed that and they came back and won. Then there was Mac, certainly not balanced, but it wasn't as overly QB reliant! Najee and the running game were still very effective. He had 1,466 yards in 13 games and 26 TDs! This kept defenses honest and this also meant that Alabama could still run when they needed to. Obviously that worked well.

So, long story short I'm not arguing that you shouldn't be good at passing. I'm just saying you shouldn't be bad at running... You need to have a good running (back) game developed or else it will almost certainly catch up to you.

As an aside. I still think Locksley should be charged with coaching malpractice for doing nothing but RPO type reads with a generational QB talent.