Trump's Tariffs and Possible Trade War

Bazza

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-snip-
I have been developing a theory on thinking. Humans have open minds as long as they have not yet decided. Once they have decided, then their thinking becomes a constant struggle to justify the decision. Sure, some folks will change their minds, but rationalizing and justifying one's already-made decision is easier. This is especially true for sports teams, one's religious convictions, and one's political party.
-snip-
I posted this the other day here....similar mindset to what you are describing.......

Asimov.jpg
 
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cbi1972

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NBC's Kristen Welker asks Senator Cory Booker (D-NJ) if he has any actual evidence that anyone in the Trump administration profited from the tariff announcements or if the call to investigate is just a fishing expedition.

Watch as he provides a lot of word salad, but zero claims of proof.
You do realize that proof of wrongdoing is the result of investigation?
 

Bazza

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You do realize that proof of wrongdoing is the result of investigation?
There has to be some kind of proof of wrong doing to justify an investigation. You can't just hold investigation after investigation because your are upset and "think" there is wrong doing.

That is what Welker was asking for.
 

JDCrimson

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Indeed, but you must have probable cause to launch an investigation. The only thing I have seen publicly is the trades that MTG the day before and day after Trump's tariff announcements...

I think you missed the rules of the game. The Democrats need probable cause to investigate Republicans on insider trading. Republicans are okay to not provide due process before shipping a legal immigrant off to a Salvadoran prison and defy a court ordering his immediate return...

You do realize that proof of wrongdoing is the result of investigation?
 
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cbi1972

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After putting someone with an axe to grind with watchdog agencies in charge of gutting watchdog agencies under the pretense of cutting waste, openly talking about having lunch with a major stock broker immediately prior to announcing market moving policy changes, and bragging about how much money all his cronies are making, I have to wonder what would be accepted as probable cause.
 

Bamaro

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Talking to a friend this past weekend about the tariffs. He is no apologist for Trump, but he is is not opposed to the tariff policy. Here is what he said:

2. Placing a tariff on an island with no people is not a dumb as it sounds because of trans-shipment. China already does with with some countries and if trans-shipping them through a tariff-free island (either in reality or on paper) gets around the tariffs, then the Chinese will do it. (My comment on that: when the EU slapped an embargo on Russian vodka and caviar in 2014, the Russians would ship vodka and caviar to Belarus. Belarusian merchants would take the Russian labels off, place "Made in Belarus" labels on them and tranship the items to Europe. And trade went the other way as well. French cheeses would get shipped to Belarus, Belarusians would remove the "Made in France" label and voila, a "Belarusian" camembert would get sold to Russian merchants.)
I had a trumpie tell me the same thing. I guess it's being promoted on Fox, Newsmax etc. The real question, is this really a possibility or just sycophants trying to cover for this administrations stupidity?
 
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CrimsonJazz

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Again I am no expert, but the places I have seen these "trade imbalance" ideas presented and perpetuated are normally the bloviating, incendiary right-wing outlets. There is always some foreign bad guy in their minds.
I'm no expert, either. I have been relatively quiet about the tariff issue because truthfully, I don't know where this is going. Opinions are so varied, it's hard to draw a bead on what to honestly expect. Democrats have done a good job pointing out the chaos that has resulted from all this, but where they have failed is in demonstrating how the chaos is worse than the certain doom we are currently looking down the barrel of. The trade imbalances might sound like hyperbole to you, but looking at the numbers, I can't help but think they have a point, regardless of who is talking about it. Then add to that to our existing debt and we aren't just standing on the precipice of the cliff's edge, we are leaning into the wind.

Some have insinuated that Congress can use their "scalpel" to fix the issue, but this assertion is laugh-out-loud ridiculous. I wouldn't trust those clowns with pre-school safety scissors, much less a scalpel. How long has it been since we've seen a congress that was even competent enough to be successful with something like this? That's not even taking into account their grift and complete lack of ethics (or their inability to cross the aisle and work together.)

I'm certainly not going to sit here and proclaim that Trump is doing the right thing, but one thing I think I can state conclusively is that if something didn't change, the system was absolutely going to collapse. The whole thing does feel like a wager, that's for sure. I just hope lady luck is on our side for this one.
 

selmaborntidefan

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The problem I have always had with the “Trump is playing 47-dimensional chess” nonsense - aside from the fact he’s a sloppy, undisciplined, gorilla in the cage pounding the glass and reacting to everything in real time within the narrow categories he understands - is he sure does whine a lot for a so-called chess master.

He’s Auburn - wins on the “Prayer at Jordan Hare” and then talks about how “nobody believed in us (me)” and “I always had faith” as if he intended to bounce the ball of two defenders, which begs the question of why that play was never drawn up as such.

He’s whining again, as if he doesn’t understand that other nations can, in fact retaliate:

 

REBELZED

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I'm no expert, either. I have been relatively quiet about the tariff issue because truthfully, I don't know where this is going. Opinions are so varied, it's hard to draw a bead on what to honestly expect. Democrats have done a good job pointing out the chaos that has resulted from all this, but where they have failed is in demonstrating how the chaos is worse than the certain doom we are currently looking down the barrel of. The trade imbalances might sound like hyperbole to you, but looking at the numbers, I can't help but think they have a point, regardless of who is talking about it. Then add to that to our existing debt and we aren't just standing on the precipice of the cliff's edge, we are leaning into the wind.

Some have insinuated that Congress can use their "scalpel" to fix the issue, but this assertion is laugh-out-loud ridiculous. I wouldn't trust those clowns with pre-school safety scissors, much less a scalpel. How long has it been since we've seen a congress that was even competent enough to be successful with something like this? That's not even taking into account their grift and complete lack of ethics (or their inability to cross the aisle and work together.)

I'm certainly not going to sit here and proclaim that Trump is doing the right thing, but one thing I think I can state conclusively is that if something didn't change, the system was absolutely going to collapse. The whole thing does feel like a wager, that's for sure. I just hope lady luck is on our side for this one.
I would think the vast majority of the "trade imbalances" would be explained by the fact that we are one of the highest consuming and most affluent countries trading with countries that have significantly fewer people and significantly less buying power. So when we buy X times more things from them than they buy from us, isn't that just the way it would naturally and logically play out? That is not some sort of "screwing" by the other country like it is being portrayed.

I could be off-base, but I have been reading a lot by people who would know these things and they seem to substantiate this being the case...
 

spidermayin

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There has to be some kind of proof of wrong doing to justify an investigation. You can't just hold investigation after investigation because your are upset and "think" there is wrong doing.

That is what Welker was asking for.
So, if someone is a suspect for murder, they need to have proof that they murdered said person before they pursue an investigation?
 

selmaborntidefan

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I would think the vast majority of the "trade imbalances" would be explained by the fact that we are one of the highest consuming and most affluent countries trading with countries that have significantly fewer people and significantly less buying power. So when we buy X times more things from them than they buy from us, isn't that just the way it would naturally and logically play out? That is not some sort of "screwing" by the other country like it is being portrayed.

I could be off-base, but I have been reading a lot by people who would know these things and they seem to substantiate this being the case...
This is precisely the point. You've got it.
(Compliment intended - I know computer words can be provocative).

People from - if you'll pardon the cliche, "both sides" of the political aisle ON THIS BOARD have noted that there's a trade imbalance between (for example), ME and Wal-Mart. But we both get something out of it.

I'm going to need something a lot more authoritative than a claim by Donald Trump to even think "oh, these trade deals are terrible." I am FAR from an apologist for ANY previous administration, but the notion that "all these politicians sold you out" (which I have no real problem believing) and that DONALD TRUMP is the SOLUTION (which - show me), when he's employing the exact same Roman candles firing into the night to get my attention but not actually changing much of anything that he claims is wrong that he employed with the USFL, Trump Plaza, and pretty much everything he's ever touched...I don't buy it. When the slimeball pimp has his miraculous religious conversion into a Christian, I'm not bad enough to say it's automatically a grift - but the tell-tale sign is that instead of sitting in his chair and learning doctrine and practice, he becomes an overnight TV preacher selling Peter and Paul salt and pepper shakers. At that point, his conversion can be viewed as opportunism.


By the way, here's something to think about: never in the entire history of America, probably in the history of the WORLD has the general populace ever thought things were "fair." I would guess that in the 1950s there must have been parents who worked in textile mills (like my grandparents) who scraped and scrimped to send their kids to college "so you don't have to work in the factory". The "system" was unfair, and you can see it in protest songs going back to Pete Seeger or Bob Dylan right through Springsteen and Mellencamp. "The system" has failed "the working man" was a common theme, esp in the 60s-70s-80s.

And yet the offspring of these same people want us to go BACK to that time that they were protesting about being unfair BACK THEN because.....wait for it.....things are unfair NOW. Amazing how the unfair days of yesterday get radically changed into "the good ole days."
 

CrimsonNagus

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Why are they a suspect? I think that would answer your question.
Uh, they are a suspect because of evidence uncovered during an investigation. No one shows up to a crime scene and says “look, here is proof so-and-so did it, let’s start an investigation on them.” No, they show up to a crime scene and start gathering evidence which they hope leads to a suspect and an arrest. You know … an investigation.

Seriously, you are trying to say that proof is needed just to start an investigation. This is not how it ever works.

I’m not saying an investigation should happen in this case. Honestly, I don’t think Trump is smart enough to have thought about insider trading. I think he seriously thought the markets would not react badly to his tariffs. He’s not a smart person. I’m just saying the statement that you must have proof first to even start an investigation is wrong.
 
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