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We Are All Socialists Now

Seeing as how the "European system" is doomed to fail in my lifetime (i.e. social security payouts will equal 25% of GDP in Greece by the year 2020, and similar situations in other countries), it is interesting to see that we are moving towards it. Not that this is exactly news. We've been becoming more socialist since at least the 1930s, with what turned out to be a temporary move in the other direction in the 1980s and 1990s.
 
Dmitry Orlov described economic collapse in the post-Soviet era, and he has written a lot of interesting literature on the topic. To him, he described our current politico-economic process as Fascism.

A nationalization of the private sector can indeed be called socialist, but only when it is carried out by a socialist government. In absence of this key ingredient, a perfect melding of government and private business is, in fact, the gold standard of fascism. But nobody is crying "Fascism!" over what has been happening in the US. Not only would this seem ridiculously theatrical, but, the trouble is, we here in the US have traditionally liked fascists. We had liked Mussolini well enough, until he allied with Hitler, whom we only eventually grew to dislike once he started hindering transatlantic trade. We liked Spain's Franco well enough too. We liked Chile's Pinochet after having a hand in bumping off his Socialist predecessor Allende (on September 11, 1973; on the same date some years later, I was very briefly seized with the odd notion that the Chileans had finally exacted their revenge). In general, a business-friendly fascist generalissimo or president-for-life with no ties to Hitler is someone we could almost always work with. So much for political honesty.

[URL]http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2009/01/that-bastion-of-american-socialism.html[/URL]
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Fascism is an authoritarian nationalist ideology focused on solving economic, political, and social problems that its supporters see as causing national decline or decadence.[1][2][3][4] Fascists aim to create a single-party state in which the government is led by a dictator who seeks unity by requiring individuals to subordinate self-interest to the collective interest of the nation or a race.[5][6][7] Fascist movements promote violent conflict between nations, political factions, and races as part of a social darwinist view that conflict between these groups is natural and a part of evolution.[8][9]
Fascist governments permanently forbid and suppress all criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[10] Fascist movements oppose any ideology or political system that gives direct political power to people as individuals rather than as a collective through the state (liberalism, democracy, individualism); that is deemed detrimental to national identity and unity (class conflict, communism, internationalism, laissez-faire capitalism); that protects and enhances the power of "weak" people rather than promoting "strong" people (egalitarianism); that may oppose major changes to institutions and cultural values that it proposes (conservatism) and that undermine the military strength and military ambitions of the nation (pacifism).[11][12][13] [14][15][16][17][18][19][20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
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Whether you buy this or not, it is a sobering line of thought, though.
 
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RhodeIslandRed said:
Dmitry Orlov described economic collapse in the post-Soviet era, and he has written a lot of interesting literature on the topic. To him, he described our current politico-economic process as Fascism.





Whether you buy this or not, it is a sobering line of thought, though.
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That is a different way to think about it.
However, everyone crying wolf at every single (economic) move is starting to get a bit ridiculous. This isn't directed at anyone here. It is just becoming the norm to freak out after every new thing is tried.
 
Bama4Ever831 said:
That is a different way to think about it.
However, everyone crying wolf at every single (economic) move is starting to get a bit ridiculous. This isn't directed at anyone here. It is just becoming the norm to freak out after every new thing is tried.
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The problem is it is not based on any single economic move. Instead it has been built up slowly over many years and now it has reached a point where people are finally waking up and seeing that it is for real. George Walker Bush, has contributed to this, Bill Clinton has contributed to this, George Herbert Bush etc....
Why do you believe that more and more people are moving away from the two traditional parties and aligning themselves with third parties? Mostly it is conservatives that are leaving the Republican Party because it has definitely moved from it's core whereas the Democrat Party has moved as far from it's base but it is still moving away.
 
Mamacalled said:
The problem is it is not based on any single economic move. Instead it has been built up slowly over many years and now it has reached a point where people are finally waking up and seeing that it is for real. George Walker Bush, has contributed to this, Bill Clinton has contributed to this, George Herbert Bush etc....
Why do you believe that more and more people are moving away from the two traditional parties and aligning themselves with third parties? Mostly it is conservatives that are leaving the Republican Party because it has definitely moved from it's core whereas the Democrat Party has moved as far from it's base but it is still moving away.
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I totally agree with what you said. I guess I just get that feeling sometime that everyone points at one move. It should be directed at the sum total, which I just don't see as much. It is probably just because some big changes have happened in the economy (Auto bailout, bank bailout, possible stimulus) very recently.
 
It's On A Slab said:
Slideshow - Salon

Nothing good has EVER come from socialism. :)
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The problems with glorifying public works projects:

1. What is constructed might be completely unnecessary (e.g. bridges to nowhere).

2. What is necessary likely shouldn't be built with public money. They tend to crowd out private endeavors, which has massive opportunity costs for all taxpayers.

3. Collosal waste of money. But, I guess if spending money is good because it creates jobs, why not give every city a Big Dig? If spending $2.8 billion (1982 dollars) is good, spending $14.6 billion ($8.1 billion in 1982 dollars) is better right? Of course not. This is a massive waste of resources.

4. Why should a project in State X be funded by the taxpayers from the other 49 states? Let Alaskans pay for their own projects. Chances are they won't build bridges to nowhere if they were paying for it themselves. But, for those states like CA, NY and MA who enjoy wasting taxpayer money, more power to them if that's what they want to do with their own money.

5. And, as DBF pointed out, why is the Constitution so blatantly ignored? No one with a straight face can tell me that most of what is being spent is at all justifiable. Why even have a Constitution?

6. Would Salon glorify public works that were built with slave labor? I mean, there are some cool things that were constructed on the backs of the oppressed. So, the end results justifies it, right? Of course not. The clowns at Salon need to take a non-Marxist economics class.
 
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My favorite line:
What they do do is legislate. Perhaps someone might want to argue that there is a critical shortage of legal documents in the United States, and too few lawyers to creatively interpret them.
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I don't know if that guy was being sarcastic or not, but he is crazy if he trully thinks socialism is the answer.
 
Its all part of the plan. Bit by bit, slowly they are eroding the Constitution. When do we stand up and fight? Are we the frog that is sitting in that pot of water that is slowly heating or are we going to jump out of the frying skillet?
 
Bama4Ever831 said:
I totally agree with what you said. I guess I just get that feeling sometime that everyone points at one move. It should be directed at the sum total, which I just don't see as much. It is probably just because some big changes have happened in the economy (Auto bailout, bank bailout, possible stimulus) very recently.
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For years I have had a favorite saying; "It is not what we allow today, it is where that "allowance" will be in 10 years".

The point is that political and social actions never stay static. From the minute they are enacted, they begin to evolve and change. Rarely are they undone; but they are modified and those modifications, many times, result in entities that barely resemble the original intent.

Ideas and/or actions once thought of as marginal ("oh I guess that is not too bad") easily become twisted and 10 years down the line people everywhere wonder "how did we get here".

The problem isn't what you tolerate now, it is where those ideas and actions will end up 10 years from now, when they are driven by people who don't necessarily think like you do and don't know, or care, what you intended in the first place.

RammerJammer14 said:
My favorite line:
I don't know if that guy was being sarcastic or not, but he is crazy if he trully thinks socialism is the answer.
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Socialism is a failure even in small counties. Just look to California ;) and you will see that it doesn't have a chance without bailouts by wealthier nations. We are the wealthiest nation, if we get in trouble who will bail us out...Europe, Asia, Canada...I don't think so. In a county this size socialism will not work.

CrimsonNan said:
I think this country is not far from having another "Tea Party"
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California certainly is, if they tax them any more. California is on the verge of financial disaster. It makes me wonder how they will survive without cutting spending and with it programs.

Property values have been dropping like a rock for several years but property taxes remain unchanged. Since they are supposedly based on a percentage of property values I wonder how they can remain unchanged? So, what is next for California...Oh, I know; They will get in line with everyone else for a government bailout/handout.

I guess we, as a nation, will just have to print up some more money so we can promote more excess spending. Pretty soon you will need a wheelbarrow full just to go to the grocery store for some milk and bread.
:rolleyes:
 
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Bama4Ever831 said:
I totally agree with what you said. I guess I just get that feeling sometime that everyone points at one move. It should be directed at the sum total, which I just don't see as much. It is probably just because some big changes have happened in the economy (Auto bailout, bank bailout, possible stimulus) very recently.
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That's the problem. A conservative says that this country is headed towards Socialism and the liberal comeback is "No we're not. Give me a specific example". This then causes the debate of each issue and not the sum. Just look back at the threads about whether or not Obama is a socialist, which I think has been answered now. Bloated gov't spending on welfare programs disguised as "stimulus", but he is going to be very strong on the evil corporations that could actually pull us out of this mess. He's stagnating capitalism and increasing welfare.
 
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I don't think we'll ever have another Tea Party or Whiskey Rebellion. At one time the prospect of the slightest tax from a distant authority prompted armed confrontation from the populace. Many of the Founding Fathers supported this mindset against restictions on individual freedom and propserity. No more. Now it's unpatriotic not to pay a lot of taxes.

We've seen a lot of Orwellian doublespeak invade our political arena to the point where I think we are past the tipping point. The Left, traditionally contemptuous of the bourgeoise/middle class now claims all their taxing and regulation and subisidizing is for the benefit of the middle class. The middle class used to be the backbone of American capitalism. Now it's quickly becoming the backbone of American socialism.
 
Displaced Bama Fan said:
Its all part of the plan. Bit by bit, slowly they are eroding the Constitution. When do we stand up and fight? Are we the frog that is sitting in that pot of water that is slowly heating or are we going to jump out of the frying skillet?
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Who is "they"?

What a great day! Eight inches of snow and no school!
 
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