Question: Why the Lack of Speed Rush from Ends?

[Crimson Bourne]

After watching the Clemson and Tulane games a second and third time I am wandering why we seem to lack the ability to speed rush from the ends. Is this because of the 3-4 base? We simply do not get the pressure on the opposing QB's that I am used to seeing from very good defenses. Don't get me wrong I am proud of our D - not allowing a TD this year. But it is painful to watch QB's have 3.5 to 4 secs to get the ball off.
Clemson and Tulane seemed to be much faster than we are on the ends. Several times our RT was completely beat by speed.

Another topic but I don't want to start multiple threads - any idea why our receivers can't get the seperation from tight coverage?

 

[BigEasyTider]

The lack of a speed rush from the ends is, I imagine, largely because of a lack of overall athleticism.

Guys like Greenwood and Deaderick are solid players, and do a nice job, but I'm not sure that either has the raw physical tools to really rush the passer off the edge like you are talking about. Guys like Tyson Jackson, Derrick Harvey, Antonio Coleman, and others can do that consistently, but frankly I don't think the guys we have are that caliber of athlete. I mean a guy like Quentin Groves shows up at the NFL Combine a year ago and runs a 4.57 in the 40, do you think any of our guys could do that? Obviously not. I'd be surprised if either Greenwood or Deaderick could get under 4.75. Again, I think it all stems back to a lack of elite athleticism at the end position.

It's no secret that we struggled to rush the passer a year ago, and that was largely why in my opinion. I don't think it has anything to with the 3-4 base -- several defensive ends I can think of have rushed the passer extremely well in the scheme -- but it's got to do with more of a general lack of elite athleticism at the end position. At this level the tackles are quite athletic in their own right, and opposing coaches have gotten keen on leaving backs and tight ends around to help the load.

Through two games this year, opposing teams have thrown 84 passes against us, and our defensive line has ultimately generated one sack over that span. Obviously, it's still a problem, and it's hard for me to believe that the problem is Saban and company not teaching proper technique. Again, I figure it all stems back to athleticism, or in particular the lack thereof. I may be wrong, but that's the way it seems to me.

 

[BigEasyTider]

As for the receivers, I'm not sure that's a major problem.

Against Clemson, there was plenty of separation, and Wilson was throwing to open receivers all night long. Obviously things were a bit different against Tulane, but that was just a bad night all the way around. The receivers were often sloppy in route-running, they dropped a few balls, Wilson missed some open guys, and he was pressured all night long. Again, I'm not sure it's a major problem as much as it was just a bad night all the way around in the passing game.

We'll just have to see how things develop. We struggled against Tulane, but things looked great against Clemson, so it's hard to say definitively one way or the other. If things persist like they did last week, it's obviously a problem, but we don't know if that will be the case or not just yet.

I do think the lack of big plays in the passing game has created some issues in that regard. When it takes a decree from the Pope to get a pass play of more than 15 yards, that really allows the pass coverage to squat on the shorter routes and really compress the field. We saw a ton of cover one and cover zero this past week against Tulane; they were betting we couldn't hit the deep routes, and we couldn't. Wilson misfired on a few, and they got pressure on the others. Again, it all allows the pass defense to compress the field and squat on the shorter stuff, making it tough to complete passes and get YAC; that's essentially what happened against Tulane. That may look like it's a problem with receivers not being able to get separation, but in reality it's all a failure caused by an inability to stretch the field vertically.

Either way, I do think that is a part of the problem, and it will probably be an issue until we can successfully hit some big plays in the passing game. Once we do that, we'll stretch the field and create a lot more space for receivers and passing lanes. Until we do that though, defenses will be able to keep things pretty compressed, and we'll probably continue to have some struggles throwing the football. That's not to say the that receivers aren't a problem, per se, but it's a problem regarding our inability to stretch the field vertically, and not necessarily a problem of a lack of separation.

Again, if you allow opposing defenses to compress the field and squat on everything, you simply aren't going to get much separation regardless of what the receivers do.

 

[tuck]

Give Chavis Williams some time. He should be a good outside rusher. In fact, I think they bring him into games for that reason alone in passing situations. He flat-out ran by the Clemson O-lineman trying to block him to get to the QB.

 

[Really Big Bama Fan]

Didn't Smelley play quarterback in high school? Perhaps he could toss a few deep passes from the H-back position to loosen up the coverage.

 

[Bama323]

If Ezekial Knight would have been able to play this year, we might have had that speed rush end we needed. He was a big loss.

 

[BigEasyTider]

If Ezekial Knight would have been able to play this year, we might have had that speed rush end we needed. He was a big loss.

While I agree that the loss of Zeke Knight was a big one, I do not believe it has hurt us yet in this regard.

After all, Chavis Williams had a sack against Clemson while playing the Sam linebacker spot, and so did Corey Reamer against Tulane. That's two sacks coming from the Sam linebacker spot in as many games, so that is not the issue. The Sam linebacker spot, regardless of who is manning it, has done its job, it's everyone else. The bigger problem is that the defensive line and Jack linebacker have combined for one sack on 84 passing attempts.

I'm not saying that won't come back to hurt us on down the stretch, mind you -- again I think Knight was a great player and he was a big loss -- but his absence doesn't explain the lack of a pass rushing presence to date.

 

[gamersfuel]

simple.. we dont have a speed DE in the rotation right now.. the guys playing are more of what u would call run stopping ends. it's normal in a 3-4 defense most times. our pressure should come from blitzing lb's and safeties but we dont have the personnell to do so right now.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

simple.. we dont have a speed DE in the rotation right now.. the guys playing are more of what u would call run stopping ends. it's normal in a 3-4 defense most times. our pressure should come from blitzing lb's and safeties but we dont have the personnell to do so right now.

I think you're right. The 3-4 is basically intended for the DL to absorb blocks and the LB's to run wild, and the personnel we do have that has to come up and put a hand on the ground aren't at the talent level of what CNS and others who run this type of defense require. Recruiting, recruiting and more recruiting.

 

[NativeTider]

Actually, I felt like Zo and Deadrick did a good job in the Clemson game. Both are capable of whipping good offensive tackles.

It also depends on whether the DE's are in "contain" (usually on running downs) or "rush" (usually in passing situations) as to whether the DE's are going to go hard into the backfield. If we are in contain then they are not going to go hard around the tackles which may give the appearance of getting blocked or being slow.

It also depends on which type of technique they are lined up in. In order to go around a tight end or offensive tackle from the outside you need to be in a 5, 6, 8 or 9 technique.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Actually, I felt like Zo and Deadrick did a good job in the Clemson game. Both are capable of whipping good offensive tackles.

It also depends on whether the DE's are in "contain" (usually on running downs) or "rush" (usually in passing situations) as to whether the DE's are going to go hard into the backfield. If we are in contain then they are not going to go hard around the tackles which may give the appearance of getting blocked or being slow.

It also depends on which type of technique they are lined up in. In order to go around a tight end or offensive tackle from the outside you need to be in a 5, 6, 8 or 9 technique.

Good points. I guess we would have to know what technique the coaches had them end to really know.

 

[Bama323]

While I agree that the loss of Zeke Knight was a big one, I do not believe it has hurt us yet in this regard.

After all, Chavis Williams had a sack against Clemson while playing the Sam linebacker spot, and so did Corey Reamer against Tulane. That's two sacks coming from the Sam linebacker spot in as many games, so that is not the issue. The Sam linebacker spot, regardless of who is manning it, has done its job, it's everyone else. The bigger problem is that the defensive line and Jack linebacker have combined for one sack on 84 passing attempts.

I'm not saying that won't come back to hurt us on down the stretch, mind you -- again I think Knight was a great player and he was a big loss -- but his absence doesn't explain the lack of a pass rushing presence to date.

One issue is that against Clemson, we were really only rushing 3 or 4, and they had 5 Offensive linemen. Coach Saban said this was done purposefully so that we could make sure we kept their short bubble screens in check.

 

[tftplisa]

Courtney Upshaw may make you happy before the season's over. He did get in last week.

 

[Bama1970]

I think you're right. The 3-4 is basically intended for the DL to absorb blocks and the LB's to run wild, and the personnel we do have that has to come up and put a hand on the ground aren't at the talent level of what CNS and others who run this type of defense require. Recruiting, recruiting and more recruiting.

Great point BB. Our overall talent level is still below par, and only good recruiting over the next few years is going to completely solve that problem.

 

[LCN]

Actually, I felt like Zo and Deadrick did a good job in the Clemson game. Both are capable of whipping good offensive tackles.

It also depends on whether the DE's are in "contain" (usually on running downs) or "rush" (usually in passing situations) as to whether the DE's are going to go hard into the backfield. If we are in contain then they are not going to go hard around the tackles which may give the appearance of getting blocked or being slow.

It also depends on which type of technique they are lined up in. In order to go around a tight end or offensive tackle from the outside you need to be in a 5, 6, 8 or 9 technique.

I agree but , I have to wonder if we might should try going small on the more obvious downs . If it's 3rd & 12+ , why not try Anders & C.Williams @ DE ? That's just something I'd like to see attempted from time to time - especially late in games .

BET
..... a pass play of more than 15 yards, that really allows the pass coverage to squat on the shorter routes and really compress the field. We saw a ton of cover one and cover zero this past week against Tulane; they were betting we couldn't hit the deep routes, and we couldn't.

True . Until we start hitting something deeper , we'll remain a pretty easy team to defend - all around . Man-under , bracket the outside , load the box , free up the safeties , etc. = nothing good for us passing or running

I know we have quite a bit more in our book and I think it would be nice to see more of it called this week to give our guys some confidence for conference play . JOMO _blank:

 

[BigEasyTider]

Until we start hitting something deeper , we'll remain a pretty easy team to defend - all around . Man-under , bracket the outside , load the box , free up the safeties , etc. = nothing good for us passing or running

Sigh, you are right, my friend.

If you cannot stretch the field at all vertically, you become a really easy team to defend. Once defensive coordinators don't have to worry much about covering the area 15+ yards beyond the line of scrimmage, life gets pretty easy for those guys.

Honestly, that's what I couldn't get about Clemson. They played us loose like we constituted a huge vertical threat offense, while in the meantime we annihilated them with the short and underneath stuff. The truth of the matter is / was that we probably couldn't have hit the big stuff, and they could have limited the short stuff without giving up anything. To that end, their gameplan didn't make much sense to me. Something tells me that, after the Tulane game went in the books, the Clemson coaches sure wish they could do that one over again.

That said, you really do have to give Toledo and company credit for earning their paycheck. They saw what they needed to do against us, and did just that. That's something no Clemson coach can say.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

You can learn a lot, if you'll watch the team warming up, particularly the pass warmup. If a QB overthrows on long balls then, with no opposition, then he's probably going to overthrow with pressure. Both Brodie and JPW always consistently overthrew, with not enough air under the ball. In JPW's case, during a game, he frequently throws way short, but with mucho air under the ball, and, last year, as often as not, DJ won the jump ball.

 

[Bamaball2001]

You can learn a lot, if you'll watch the team warming up, particularly the pass warmup. If a QB overthrows on long balls then, with no opposition, then he's probably going to overthrow with pressure. Both Brodie and JPW always consistently overthrew, with not enough air under the ball. In JPW's case, during a game, he frequently throws way short, but with mucho air under the ball, and, last year, as often as not, DJ won the jump ball.

True of last year, his mechanics weren't right, he was constantly throwing off his back foot. But, this year he seems to be stepping into the ball more and missing long. I think it will all come together and he will start hitting more long passes.

:BigA: RTR!

 

[bamaslammer]

In my opinion we aren't using JJ like we should, with a guy that height and with that leaping ability you just need to toss a high floater and let him go get it. The DB is either going to knock it loose or draw an interference foul.

 

[NativeTider]

I agree but , I have to wonder if we might should try going small on the more obvious downs . If it's 3rd & 12+ , why not try Anders & C.Williams @ DE ? That's just something I'd like to see attempted from time to time - especially late in games .

If we cannot get an effective pass rush from the DE position then I think you will see some different personnel groupings on passing downs. Or we will have to get pressure from somewhere else.

If Cody can keep collapsing the pocket from the middle then it will open up a lot of opportunities for the DE's. Hopefully, our current DE's will continue to improve and become a significant pass rushing threat. If so, then it will REALLY free up our linebackers to roam unimpeded. We are already pretty good against the run so, needless to say, if we start getting significant pressure with three or four then we will be a very, very good defense.