When it comes to layoffs/cutbacks, does seniority no longer matter?

[jps1983]

Tough situation. This has been going on for a while at a lot of different jobs; My dad is an engineer and about 15 years ago (at age 40ish), the plant he worked at needed to make cuts; he and several of his friends were told they should probably take the severance that was offered and most of them did, but he'd been there 10 years or so and had much more real world experience than the 25 year old they hired to replace him, but it was a bottom line issue. These guys were approaching some better 'vesting' rights and the company decided to look at bottom line rather than quality of work/ knowledge. Thankfully it worked out for him, so hope the same happens with you should they decide to let you go.

 

[AlexanderFan]

I happen to enjoy the idea of seniority. Even at my current job, where I'm near the bottom of my field, I'm still in favor of seniority. Hire dates don't discriminate. They don't kiss ..., they don't suck up, they don't brown nose. If someone is awarded a job over me it's because they hired out ahead of me. End of story. Hopefully my time will come as well.

Let me say I'm going to pray and hope that if this door closes for you that a better door opens.

For all the union haters out there situations like this are why unions came into existence. Not every union worker is lazy and not every company rewards hard work and loyalty.

 

[Tide1986]

I happen to enjoy the idea of seniority. Even at my current job, where I'm near the bottom of my field, I'm still in favor of seniority. Hire dates don't discriminate. They don't kiss ..., they don't suck up, they don't brown nose. If someone is awarded a job over me it's because they hired out ahead of me. End of story. Hopefully my time will come as well.

Let me say I'm going to pray and hope that if this door closes for you that a better door opens.

For all the union haters out there situations like this are why unions came into existence. Not every union worker is lazy and not every company rewards hard work and loyalty.

Hire dates can discriminate against superior skill & ability.

 

[Bodhisattva]

If I'm lazy I like seniority preferences.

If I'm talented I don't.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

For all the union haters out there situations like this are why unions came into existence. Not every union worker is lazy and not every company rewards hard work and loyalty.

You're correct. My dad was a part of unions at Kroger and General Motors. But he'd even tell you that the unions are now operating in a manner that wasn't intended when unions first started.

 

[NationalTitles18]

It's looking more and more like my time there is at it's end. It sux, because in one week from this Thursday, I turn 40. I haven't job hunted since just before my 27th birthday. At 26, you can lose your job, walk across the street and find new employment. At 40, well, not so much. Now, I get to compete with a bunch of twenty-somethings for work. The world is far different than it was in the fall of 2000. I wouldn't know where to begin. Not only that, I could have to train my replacement before they let me go. They are in talks with someone who is willing to take my position for what would amount to less than the minimum wage! But, apparently, I may not be alone. Also, there is a lady here who is slightly older than me, and has like 15-16 years of service, and TWO college degrees. Yet, they are in talks with someone to replace her who has never even set foot inside a college classroom. Yet, when she got the job back in the late 1990's, an advanced degree was required. But, these people they are talking to now (potential future temps) will work for peanuts, and that is very attractive to my soon-to-be ex-employer.

Let them fire you then sue for age discrimination. maybe you won't need a job afterward. I'm half serious, half not. Either way, what a shame. Seems to be happening more and more.

 

[twofbyc]

Hire dates can discriminate against superior skill & ability.

And if they are not considered but pay is, they can discriminate against superior skill and ability. happens all the time, hope it doesn't happen to OP. I'd keep my ear to the ground and bolt as soon as I could; if they're going to let you go anyway, find another gig and get the jump on 'em. Jobs were available before the shutdown, maybe not in your area of expertise, but they are out there. I get 30-40 postings in my inbox every day.

 

[92tide]

I know that every employer is different, but I was under the impression that, at least to some degree, employers still had to follow protocol with regard to seniority when it comes to "belt tightening" time. My employer kicked off this week with a gloom and doom meeting about how we have too many employees and therefore, at some point in the not too distant future, someone has to go. Next month, I will have 13 years at my present job, so when I first heard that they would have to start cutting back, I didn't get too nervous. Well, that feeling quickly changed as they then went on to inform us that basically, seniority made no difference in this situation. Not only that, but apparently, temporary employees (in other words,people willing to work for next to nothing) have more security than people like me. Despite being temps and despite having been there less than a year. So, bottom line, I'm first up on the chopping block, due to the fact that I'm not a minimum wager, and I don't have enough time in to retire. This is where it gets contradictory. Apparently, those with enough time to retire are safe as well. Yet, they said seniority didn't matter.:conf2: So, if they attempted to lay me off over a temp, could I sue them for failing to recognize my seniority? Or, is nobody really "safe" in this current economic environment?

sorry to hear that. i know that this has to be stressful. best of luck to you. unfortunately, at least in Georgia, employment is considered "at will" (im sure there are legal terms for this) and you don't have a lot of recourse when you lose your job unless the employer really screws up in the process of the layoffs.

 

[92tide]

I had a discussion just this morning with a friend of mine on this general subject. It seems that loyalty (employer and/or employee) is no longer an expectation in the American corporate model. If you wish to go all philosophical about it, you could make a case that loyalty is no longer an American characteristic and that the corporate model is simply a reflection of American values, but, hey, when have we ever went all philosophical here on Tidefans NS...

it hasn't been in a long time, if ever. look at all of the labor issues around the turn of the century (20th) and after. but yes, the corporate model is somewhat a reflection of American values, it has always been.

 

[92tide]

If I'm old I like seniority preferences.

If I'm young I don't.

works like this too

 

[92tide]

Let them fire you then sue for age discrimination. maybe you won't need a job afterward. I'm half serious, half not. Either way, what a shame. Seems to be happening more and more.

i don't think you have a lot of standing for age discrimination at 40

 

[NationalTitles18]

i don't think you have a lot of standing for age discrimination at 40

40 is the age the EEOC uses as a threshold for age discrimination. so....

 

[92tide]

40 is the age the EEOC uses as a threshold for age discrimination. so....

thanks, didn't know that. i thought it was 50. i had to fire a guy who was in his early 50's once and he tried the age discrimination angle. it didn't make it very far. im not overly knowledgable about labor law, but i think an age discrimination suit in a mass layoff, where older (or more senior) people are keeping their jobs wouldn't be very successful.

 

[NationalTitles18]

thanks, didn't know that. i thought it was 50. i had to fire a guy who was in his early 50's once and he tried the age discrimination angle. it didn't make it very far. im not overly knowledgable about labor law, but i think an age discrimination suit in a mass layoff, where older (or more senior) people are keeping their jobs wouldn't be very successful.

Like you, I think it would depend on the circumstances. One isolated incident would make it very hard to prove, but a pattern either over time or during the coming layoff could come back and bite the employer.

In the current economic environment employers hold the advantage and know it. Many are using and even abusing that advantage.

 

[We_are_Bama]

Yesterday, before I left work, one of the bosses told me "hey, you know this isn't personal, right?". :rolleye2: I guess that was supposed to take the sting out of me being potentially let go. They then asked me to "see it from our perspective", and then went on to use an analogy. They said "say you were going to pay someone to cut your lawn". "The first guy you talk to wants $60.00". "The next guy you talk to will do the exact same work for $15.00". "Which one are you more likely to go with". I just had to laugh. First off, the guy who will "cut the same lawn for $15.00 that the other guy was asking $60.00 to do" is without a doubt, a blithering idiot. In that scenario, $15.00 wouldn't even cover the guy's fuel for the lawn mower. Secondly, what kind of quality of work are you going to get when you go SO cheap? But, I guess they just aren't concerned about the quality.

 

[chanson78]

Yesterday, before I left work, one of the bosses told me "hey, you know this isn't personal, right?".

I would already have my resume polished off, and be using my lunch break to visit as many companies as I could in an attempt to have a solid back up plan. Monster and CarreerBuilder are excellent sites. Ensure that you have your resume up to date, and available for browsing. If you don't have one, create a LinkedIn page, and start gathering references from people you know and or have worked with in the past. It has a mechanism to allow people to recommend your work. At this point it has become a glorified circle ... back slap, but its one of the tools of the trade in looking for a new job.

I don't want to worry you, but IMHO, companies already know 2 to 3 weeks before they let you go whether you are on the list. They are probably working on a plan now to determine when/how they do it, and how much severance if any they give. Remember, this isn't about loyalty anymore, its about your living and your family's well being. This is not saying that you are on the list, but you need to be proactive in safeguarding your livelihood.

 

[AlexanderFan]

Yesterday, before I left work, one of the bosses told me "hey, you know this isn't personal, right?". :rolleye2: I guess that was supposed to take the sting out of me being potentially let go. They then asked me to "see it from our perspective", and then went on to use an analogy. They said "say you were going to pay someone to cut your lawn". "The first guy you talk to wants $60.00". "The next guy you talk to will do the exact same work for $15.00". "Which one are you more likely to go with". I just had to laugh. First off, the guy who will "cut the same lawn for $15.00 that the other guy was asking $60.00 to do" is without a doubt, a blithering idiot. In that scenario, $15.00 wouldn't even cover the guy's fuel for the lawn mower. Secondly, what kind of quality of work are you going to get when you go SO cheap? But, I guess they just aren't concerned about the quality.

Just look them in the eye and say, " when they're done with us, you're next." Greed feeds upon itself. That's what some on here just don't understand: I don't care how " valuable" you make yourself, you WILL BE REPLACED when a cheaper option comes along. It won't make sense, they will be willing to take crappy experience and shoddy work in an effort to shrink the bottom line and justify their existence, and, more importantly, their salary.

 

[92tide]

Like you, I think it would depend on the circumstances. One isolated incident would make it very hard to prove, but a pattern either over time or during the coming layoff could come back and bite the employer.

In the current economic environment employers hold the advantage and know it. Many are using and even abusing that advantage.

yeah, it pretty much takes a pattern of behavior to even start down that road. the guy i had to fire had a wife who was an attorney (a real estate one) and tried to go the whole threatening letter route against me/the company. but unfortunately for them, the only pattern of [poor] behavior was his. lets just say she wasn't a very good attorney, and we didn't fire anyone unless we had very good (and well documented) reasons to do so. it did provide for some good comic relief when i was working with the company attorney and the head of hr. we needed it because the process was drug out about 30 days or so because of their attempts to make it a legal matter.

 

[cuda.1973]

Seniority/loyalty hasn't mattered in the 40+ years I was in the "job market".

I remember one day...............they told a certain boss "We need to get rid of 20 people. Pick 19 names." That was early 70s.

I will say things have gotten worse. Too much outsourcing, too many temps. Not really the cost savings that are touted, but makes management's life easier. (Some guys I used to work with left the company, and started a temp agency. And hired all the engineers who were let go. "Sold" them back to the company, but kept 1/3 of the fee that was paid. Nice scam.) Most companies are lazy, at the top, and are extremely myopic. They can't see past the end of the quarter. Getting rid of the R&D group is one of the first things lazy management does, which only seals their fate.

Unless they outsource new product development, as well. Which, sadly, also seems to be the norm.

Yep, not a fan of big companies. Or big labor.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

it hasn't been in a long time, if ever. look at all of the labor issues around the turn of the century (20th) and after. but yes, the corporate model is somewhat a reflection of American values, it has always been.

You're exactly right. Which is why I no longer "go the extra mile" for my employer. I do exactly what I'm paid to do. Nothing more, nothing less. No more showing up early and leaving late to impress anybody. No more taking work home over the weekend to ensure on Monday I'm completely caught up and it looks good on my account sheet. It's not worth it. What good does it do me? NONE! All the "going the extra mile" does is create a new expectation. What used to be "going above and beyond" is no longer considered "going above and beyond". It is now the expectation and pay stays the same.