Bad calls...

[KrAzY3]

that level of focus has an effect on stupid penalties.

That doesn't explain things like half a season of not making a single offensive holding call, when Alabama had one of the best pass rushes in the nation. Your counter might not they weren't making stupid penalties and I'd say yeah, they were smart penalties because they were keeping their quarterback from getting demolished by sometimes just tackling the Alabama pass rusher. The refs just weren't calling them. They most certainly were happening though, intuitively one knows you couldn't stop that pass rush without holding, but there were pictures...

So, when we combine that proof and then apply the razor...

 

[RTR91]

Indy, going off your posts about an official's responsibility I am even more in support of the eighth official that was recently added. Would you say we need more for each game?

In regards to teams' penalties against Alabama, I did some research on it last year.

In 2013, only one team had 4 or less penalties called against Alabama than they averaged in the rest of their games. Georgia State and Oklahoma each significantly exceeded their averages (4 and 5 more against Alabama respectively).

Texas A&M and LSU each were called for 2 penalties against Alabama in 2014, which comes out to 3.5 and 3.8 less per game than they averaged in their other games. No team on Alabama's 2014 schedule was called for more penalties against Alabama than they averaged.

2015 was somewhat of a mixed bag. MTSU, Georgia, Arkansas and Auburn all were called for 3+ more penalties against Alabama than they averaged on the season. Texas A&M and Charleston Southern each were called for 3+ less than their average.

Last year was the really, really bad year. Texas A&M was called for nine penalties against Alabama while averaging six per game in it's other 12 games. Western Kentucky, Kent State, Kentucky, Tennessee, Chattanooga, Washington, and Clemson all were called for 3+ less penalties than against Alabama than they average in the rest of their games.

Just finished looking at the 2017 numbers. Four teams were called for 3+ less penalties against Alabama than they averaged on the season. Tennessee was called for nine penalties while averaged 5.3 in their other 11 games.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

I said it was in general, not an absolute. I know our crew usually has fewer flags when we have two good teams because they are more disciplined. There are some teams though that are good but can get chippy especially if playing a rival. That can impact the number and especially yardage total of penalties.

Your sample size is fairly small. I wonder if the data would show anything if you took the average penalty yardage of teams in the first quadrant, second quadrant, etc. Same for opponents yardage based on strength of schedule.

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So, we rank #31 in yardage of penalties called and our opponents rank #130. Does this seem unusual in any way to you? We were criticized for playing a soft schedule, too many cupcakes. It would seem from this that we are rather ham-handed and undisciplined and our oft-criticized opponents were light years ahead of us in technique...

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Occam's Razor states that the simplest answer to all the observed facts is probably correct. If so, is it more likely that:

1) All the refs in all the games we play are biased (consciously or unconsciously) against Alabama, or
2) Somebody is actually listening to Corso when he says that to beat Bama, you can't give them cheap yards.

Personally, if I was coaching against us, I would do everything in my power to eliminate every cheap penalty I could. Everybody brings their A game when they play us, and that level of focus has an effect on stupid penalties.

Do you really realize how much easier that is said than done? You play like you practice. Your Occam's razor is dull...

 

[IndyBison]

Indy, going off your posts about an official's responsibility I am even more in support of the eighth official that was recently added. Would you say we need more for each game?

The 8th official helps in many cases but probably not on this block. His key would be the tackle on that side. Without the 8th man the referee would have that tackle from the other side so that's where it helps. The C is very helpful on pass plays and runs up the middle because he can see the offensive side of the block and holds are easier to see from that side. That's partially due to the fact that he's not always thinking about getting run over. The C really helps a lot on kick plays. They can be the hardest to officiate because players are much more spread out and you have bodies moving fast in multiple directions.

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[BamaInBham]

The 8th official helps in many cases but probably not on this block. His key would be the tackle on that side. Without the 8th man the referee would have that tackle from the other side so that's where it helps. The C is very helpful on pass plays and runs up the middle because he can see the offensive side of the block and holds are easier to see from that side. That's partially due to the fact that he's not always thinking about getting run over. The C really helps a lot on kick plays. They can be the hardest to officiate because players are much more spread out and you have bodies moving fast in multiple directions.

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There is another post on the board chronicling Bama's and it's opponents' penalties for two time periods. They are shocking. Would you please comment on this please? The thread's name is "Some numbers showing the disparity in how Alabama is officiated", the author is Krazy3. Thanks so much.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

There is another post on the board chronicling Bama's and it's opponents' penalties for two time periods. They are shocking. Would you please comment on this please? The thread's name is "

Some numbers showing the disparity in how Alabama is officiated​

", the author is Krazy3. Thanks so much.

I don't think he has a reply...

 

[BamaInBham]

I don't think he has a reply...

I guess we can hope . It's truly amazing.

 

[uafan4life]

Then that contact had no impact on the play. If the pass is gong to a different receiver, unless it's a personal foul it's nothing...

Personally, I utterly hate this mindset. No, it didn't have an effect on the play but it very well could have.

Let's say that Ridley had stepped out of bounds on his own accord as he was crossing the back of the end-zone... If it's reviewed, which it almost certainly would be, replay calls it an incomplete pass and - since the back judge left the flag in his pocket - Alabama is screwed and turns the ball over on downs. If, instead, he throws the flag on the obvious foul then it's first and goal for Alabama.

It's either a foul or it isn't. As long as the flag can't be thrown by the replay official then it's irresponsible for an official on the field to assume it isn't necessary to throw the flag when they see an infraction.

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[IndyBison]

Personally, I utterly hate this mindset. No, it didn't have an effect on the play but it very well could have.

Let's say that Ridley had stepped out of bounds on his own accord as he was crossing the back of the end-zone... If it's reviewed, which it almost certainly would be, replay calls it an incomplete pass and - since the back judge left the flag in his pocket - Alabama is screwed and turns the ball over on downs. If, instead, he throws the flag on the obvious foul then it's first and goal for Alabama.

It's either a foul or it isn't. As long as the flag can't be thrown by the replay official then it's irresponsible for an official on the field to assume it isn't necessary to throw the flag when they see an infraction.

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People keep saying it's either a foul or it isn't. You are right. In this case it isn't a foul. The pass didn't go to him. That is a factor in determining if it's a foul. If Ridley hadn't been there then it's likely DPI because the pass is now going to the other receiver.

I just searched the play and if you all want the officials to enforce rules exactly as written them Alabama was guilty of an illegal formation and illegal touching. I explained the illegal formation situation earlier and this is a great example. The widest receiver on the top is on the line because he's breaking the waist of the snapper. Ridley is inside him and indicates he's a back but he's breaking the waist of the nearest lineman (actually both the T and the wideout). He needs to be completely behind their waist to be a back.

So he's not a lineman and he's not a back and that makes him in an illegal formation. It also makes him an ineligible receiver which means him catching the ball is illegal touching. That penalty results in a loss of down. Georgia would get first and 10 at the 12 after penalty enforcement. But by philosophy this is not officiated that technically. The defense knows the receivers are staggered and Ridley is not covered. That's good enough to not be considered a foul. Coaches and players understand this and it's not an issue. The contact to the receiver in the back is not a foul because the pass ends up going to Ridley whether or not he catches it.

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[uafan4life]

People keep saying it's either a foul or it isn't. You are right. In this case it isn't a foul. The pass didn't go to him. That is a factor in determining if it's a foul. If Ridley hadn't been there then it's likely DPI because the pass is now going to the other receiver.

I just searched the play and if you all want the officials to enforce rules exactly as written them Alabama was guilty of an illegal formation and illegal touching. I explained the illegal formation situation earlier and this is a great example. The widest receiver on the top is on the line because he's breaking the waist of the snapper. Ridley is inside him and indicates he's a back but he's breaking the waist of the nearest lineman (actually both the T and the wideout). He needs to be completely behind their waist to be a back.

So he's not a lineman and he's not a back and that makes him in an illegal formation. It also makes him an ineligible receiver which means him catching the ball is illegal touching. That penalty results in a loss of down. Georgia would get first and 10 at the 12 after penalty enforcement. But by philosophy this is not officiated that technically. The defense knows the receivers are staggered and Ridley is not covered. That's good enough to not be considered a foul. Coaches and players understand this and it's not an issue. The contact to the receiver in the back is not a foul because the pass ends up going to Ridley whether or not he catches it.

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I get the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law argument. However, given the following assertion...

If Harris isn't getting mugged then Ridley, seeing this, wouldn't step in front of Harris and catch the pass headed directly toward him.

As an official, can you honestly deny this assertion? Especially in the split second between the commission of the foul and the catch?

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[IndyBison]

I get the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law argument. However, given the following assertion...

If Harris isn't getting mugged then Ridley, seeing this, wouldn't step in front of Harris and catch the pass headed directly toward him.

As an official, can you honestly deny this assertion? Especially in the split second between the commission of the foul and the catch?

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Absolutely. It's actually very easy to see on this play. There is no rush to throw your flag so watch the play and process it before throwing a flag. It does not matter at all why Ridley ran where he did, because he cut off this pass. The contact and the catch happen very close together both in location and time. See the action, process it, and rule. Pretty basic officiating stuff.

If Ridley had been a Georgia player instead then the contact would likely be a foul because of how close he was to the other receiver. But if the other defender was 3-4 yards in front of the the receiver it's likely not a foul because of that separation. Context is a factor in determining whether a foul has occurred. You can't look at the contact in a vacuum.

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[CapitalTider]

The downgrade for an incorrect call is bigger than the downgrade for an incorrect no call.

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Interesting that they incentivize non-calls over incorrect calls. It you wanted to incentivize accuracy you would treat both the same.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

People keep saying it's either a foul or it isn't. You are right. In this case it isn't a foul. The pass didn't go to him. That is a factor in determining if it's a foul. If Ridley hadn't been there then it's likely DPI because the pass is now going to the other receiver.

I just searched the play and if you all want the officials to enforce rules exactly as written them Alabama was guilty of an illegal formation and illegal touching. I explained the illegal formation situation earlier and this is a great example. The widest receiver on the top is on the line because he's breaking the waist of the snapper. Ridley is inside him and indicates he's a back but he's breaking the waist of the nearest lineman (actually both the T and the wideout). He needs to be completely behind their waist to be a back.

So he's not a lineman and he's not a back and that makes him in an illegal formation. It also makes him an ineligible receiver which means him catching the ball is illegal touching. That penalty results in a loss of down. Georgia would get first and 10 at the 12 after penalty enforcement. But by philosophy this is not officiated that technically. The defense knows the receivers are staggered and Ridley is not covered. That's good enough to not be considered a foul. Coaches and players understand this and it's not an issue. The contact to the receiver in the back is not a foul because the pass ends up going to Ridley whether or not he catches it.

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How about the two false starts?

 

[scrodz]

That doesn't explain things like half a season of not making a single offensive holding call, when Alabama had one of the best pass rushes in the nation. Your counter might not they weren't making stupid penalties and I'd say yeah, they were smart penalties because they were keeping their quarterback from getting demolished by sometimes just tackling the Alabama pass rusher. The refs just weren't calling them. They most certainly were happening though, intuitively one knows you couldn't stop that pass rush without holding, but there were pictures...



So, when we combine that proof and then apply the razor...

Not saying that there's one definitive answer, just floating another possible cause. The Razor doesn't really handle multiple causes very well.

 

[scrodz]

Do you really realize how much easier that is said than done? You play like you practice. Your Occam's razor is dull...

Yes, you play like you practice. Does any other team practice with the level of intensity that CNS instills? Not much improvement to be gained for us against any one team. Your average, run of the mill team has a lot more room to dial it up for one big game, and a hell of a lot more incentive.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Yes, you play like you practice. Does any other team practice with the level of intensity that CNS instills? Not much improvement to be gained for us against any one team. Your average, run of the mill team has a lot more room to dial it up for one big game, and a hell of a lot more incentive.

I'll agree that we get everyone's A game. However, I don't think any team can completely reverse their previous penalty record playing us. In fact, if anything, I'd expect the opposite from their being amped up - more false starts, offsides, DPI and the like...

 

[KrAzY3]

I'll agree that we get everyone's A game. However, I don't think any team can completely reverse their previous penalty record playing us. In fact, if anything, I'd expect the opposite from their being amped up - more false starts, offsides, DPI and the like...

Not only that but we've seen concerted efforts to commit penalties just to stop Alabama's superior talent. The Auburn game is a good example, they just mugged Ridley when he was open, and even though the gameplan was fairly obvious, the refs still missed some of those calls. In previous seasons we've seen guys literally jumping on the back of Alabama pass rushers, and still not getting called for holding. Heck, for a while there was nothing they could do that would cause them to be called for holding, and teams were obviously doing it to stop Alabama's pass rush.

I do find it hard to believe that the opponents play mistake free against Alabama, but even accepting that we've seen teams incorporate violations of the rules into their playstyle if not their gameplan (chop blocks, pass interference, holding) to try to stop them, so it does make it rather incredible that Alabama somehow commits more penalties under those circumstance.

 

[TUSCALOOSAHONOR]

People keep saying it's either a foul or it isn't. You are right. In this case it isn't a foul. The pass didn't go to him. That is a factor in determining if it's a foul. If Ridley hadn't been there then it's likely DPI because the pass is now going to the other receiver.

I just searched the play and if you all want the officials to enforce rules exactly as written them Alabama was guilty of an illegal formation and illegal touching. I explained the illegal formation situation earlier and this is a great example. The widest receiver on the top is on the line because he's breaking the waist of the snapper. Ridley is inside him and indicates he's a back but he's breaking the waist of the nearest lineman (actually both the T and the wideout). He needs to be completely behind their waist to be a back.

So he's not a lineman and he's not a back and that makes him in an illegal formation. It also makes him an ineligible receiver which means him catching the ball is illegal touching. That penalty results in a loss of down. Georgia would get first and 10 at the 12 after penalty enforcement. But by philosophy this is not officiated that technically. The defense knows the receivers are staggered and Ridley is not covered. That's good enough to not be considered a foul. Coaches and players understand this and it's not an issue. The contact to the receiver in the back is not a foul because the pass ends up going to Ridley whether or not he catches it.

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So I guess Holcombe should have told the officials in the ms game that it couldn't have been pi that he was called for because the qb wasn't throwing it to his receiver.

 

[IndyBison]

Interesting that they incentivize non-calls over incorrect calls. It you wanted to incentivize accuracy you would treat both the same.

No. It's definitely better to err on the side of no call if you aren't certain a foul occurred. It's worse to flag something that didn't happen than miss or pass on something that maybe did. The no call could be just because you didn't see it. If you missed it because of incorrect mechanics and were looking somewhere you shouldn't then you would get a mechanics downgrade too. An INC downgrade is still mad but an IC is worse.

Another thing to note is foul call/no call is just one thing evaluated. There are also mechanics positioning/communication) and things like clock, spots, in bounds/out of bounds, touchdown/touchback/safety, penalty enforcement and more.

If there was a hold on the Georgia TD above and the back judge saw it but passed and the evaluator thought it should have been a foul, the B only gets a INC (incorrect no call) downgrade. But if he didn't even see the block because he was watching a blocker on the other side of the field, he would get a mechanics downgrade too. If he flagged it and maybe there wasn't much restriction he may get a TT (too technical) or M (marginal) downgrade. At the D1 level these evaluations are very thorough and play a major role in postseason assignments.

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