DeBoer gets his first transfer ... and it's a QB. Austin Mack

[Ledsteplin]

I'm not going to name someone who I think would have a lead in the QB race, but the new offense, if it's the same as CKD has used everywhere else, requires the QB to make a lot of reads, pre, at and post snap and the post snap reads are FAST and often multiple. It's also requires the QB to very often get the ball out very, very fast. Against UM, Penix had many, many throws against very fast pressures that avoided sacks. The QB also must be able to execute timing routes/passes with precision, hitting receivers in the right windows designed into the multi-depth or multi-read routes.

These skills will be required, or the new offense will very likely sputter and fail, and with the defensive losses we've had, we're going to need the offense to carry the load a bit in 24.

Milroe, so far, hasn't demonstrated the ability to make even simple reads, much less complex multi-read concepts, nor to throw quickly (PFF analyzed all SEC QBs and Milroe was DEAD LAST in time to get the ball out), nor to execute timing routes. He had the opportunity to show these skills last year all of these things were part of the way the offense was supposed to operate, until Rees had to make significant changes based on these limitations. Yes the reads are very likely different as the route combos are different, but our offense did need him to try to make reads. Even after the drastic simplification, there were still supposed to be reads that were not happening. We did have hot routes to alleviate pressure; He didn't get the ball out and took sacks instead. In passing skeleton drills, he's by far the slowest of every QB on the roster from snap to pass, and if you can' go fast in practice like that, you're chances of somehow going faster in a game are exceptionally low. In fact many of the sacks he took against UM, there was an open hot route for the taking. We did have timing routes; he was either consistently late in making the throw, or didn't make the throw at all. Several analysts joked that the TEs and RBs must have been trying to hit on JMs girl because it was almost like no matter how open they were, he wasn't getting the ball to them.

Now JM could fix all that and earn the spot, and if he does truly fix all that, and somehow becomes the best of the QBs at those things, I'll be happy for him, but he made no progress toward those things so far in over 2 years on campus, and only has a couple of months till spring camp. I just want whichever QB has the right skills to execute this new offense with all the multi-read requirements and passing requirements to have the job to give all the other skill players opportunities to be successful.

Seems I recall someone posting about Bryce Young missing the open guy. They showed photos. I think it gets exaggerated.

 

[countrytider]

Milroe is, indeed, mentally and physically capable. Why would you think otherwise?

What have you seen that leads you to believe this? The offense this year had to be so scaled back, the playbook was cut in half, if not more, because of his incapabilities. He can’t even excecute simple, basic zone-read concepts almost every QB has built into now.

Again, where do you see he will in any way be able to learn, and also execute the full DeBoer/Grubb offense based off actual evidence we have seen?

 

[gtgilbert]

Seems I recall someone posting about Bryce Young missing the open guy. They showed photos. I think it gets exaggerated.

The film don't lie. This guy has called it out, like he says, in every game...

Edited to add, this is the same guy who was calling for Tua (edited) to take over for Hurts mid-season. He's passionate about it for sure, but he really knows his stuff when he's watching film and breaking things down. One of the best out there honestly.

 

[gtgilbert]

Seems I recall someone posting about Bryce Young missing the open guy. They showed photos. I think it gets exaggerated.

so let me ask you a couple of things:

Did it seem Milroe really had a good handle on the reads he was supposed to be making, if he did, that he was capable of making them? Check my other response to you before answering

Do you think PFF is wrong in their analysis of Milroe being worst in the SEC in getting the ball out?

I also timed snap to release in the available practice videos of each QB making the same throws and posted the results here. Milroe was by far the slowest of the QBs on the roster. Would I make that up when it would be really easy to watch those same videos and call me out if I was?

Did you not hear Saban talking about having to simplify the system for JM?

How about how they said that at the bye week, having to pretty much do a re-install of an even more simplified approach?

How about the TV analysts talking about how Rees and Saban had told them they took the most simple RPO read out of Jalen's hands and try to pre-call the give/keep/pass from the sideline because he couldn't perform it?

 

[BearFoot]

The film don't lie. This guy has called it out, like he says, in every game...

Edited to add, this is the same guy who was calling for Bryce to take over for Hurts mid-season. He's passionate about it for sure, but he really knows his stuff when he's watching film and breaking things down. One of the best out there honestly.

Bryce didn’t play when Hurts played ???

 

[NoNC4Tubs]

Bryce didn’t play when Hurts played ???

Don't believe so...🤔

 

[gtgilbert]

I find it odd how some here want to discount a Heisman quality quarterback, who led Alabama to wins over LSU, Tennessee, Auburn, and an SEC Championship win over The Georgia Bulldawgs, then into the playoff. Instead, hoping a Redshirt Freshman who's been in DeBoer's system a year but with no college game experience at all, will be the starter in September.

Just odd.

I think Milroe quickly learns and thrives in the DeBoer/Grubb system, and starts in September. I can see Grubb salivating and concocting plays utilizing Milroe's running ability, to slip into the wide open pass attack.
If I'm wrong I'm wrong. But that's how I see it.

So did a little research into DeBoer's history.

the rushing numbers seem to include sacks - taken from ESPN.com

Penix for 2 years at UW to run his system (didn't gather number of sacks here as the yardage makes it immaterial):
2023: 35 rushes for 8 yards 4900+ passing
2022: 35 rushes for 92 yards 4600+ passing

At Fresno State - starting QB (didn't gather number of sacks here as the yardage makes it immaterial):
2021: 71 rushes for 5 yards Over 4k passing yards
2020: 57 rushes for 18 yards - just over 2k passing

As OC at Indiana:
2019
Penix 22 rushes for 119 1300 + yards (just 6 games)
Other dude: 97 rushes for 252 2400+ passing (25 sacks for -134) long run of 21

OC at Fresno
2018 71 for 294 with 3600+ passing (12 sacks for -68); long run of 29
2017 57 for 302 with 2700+ passing (8 sacks for -60); long run of 57

so we don't have a guy who really has a track record of leveraging a heavy QB run approach. More like focusing on the QB executing the passing game and running out when you have to or maybe a surprise QB run once and a while but none of this seems to indicate wanting a heavy QB run offense.

 

[gtgilbert]

Bryce didn’t play when Hurts played ???

AHHH - Tua - not Bryce. My bad!

 

[cbi1972]

Bryce didn’t play when Hurts played ???

Don't believe so...🤔

AHHH - Tua - not Bryce. My bad!

	2016​	2017​	2018​	2019​	2020​	2021​	2022​	2023​
Jalen Hurts	Fr	So	Jr	Sr-OU	Eagles	Eagles	Eagles	Eagles
Tua Tagovailoa		Fr	So	Jr	Dolphins	Dolphins	Dolphins	Dolphins
Mac Jones		Fr	RS Fr	RS So	RS Jr	Patriots	Patriots	Patriots
Bryce Young					Fr	So	Jr	Panthers
Jalen Milroe						Fr	RS Fr	RS So

 

[BhamToTexas]

The only time Saban started a TF at quarterback was because he was absolutely forced to because the other 3 just were that bad. Lonergan wasn’t facing a bad quarterback room.

Oh I get that, I thought you were implying we didn't start the best guy because we had JS in the recruiting class and didn't want him to see a freshman starting.

 

[BamaMoon]

He was also the most consistent quarterback in the fall. Probably the reason he didn’t win was that he was a true freshman and we had a huge talent coming in.

Dang, do we really think one thought process is not starting the best QB because JS is in this upcoming recruiting class?

So it's been suggested that CNS let some things slip the last few years because he was chasing 1 more NC. Didn't get it with BY and then last year he went with JM.

It kinda blows my mind that if DL was the most consistent he didn't give him an opportunity. Why not start him at USF instead of Buckner?

The whole fiasco of how the QB situation developed OR devolved last year is crazy. How does the best coach in college football history not play the QB who was most consistent in fall practice?

Someone says, "As a true freshman he might have been limited" but then the guy we end up going with couldn't run the full offense either and we had to make a mid season change to simplify everything for him.

In my mind, this along with players attitudes about money, probably sealed the deal for the CNS retirement.

 

[BamaMoon]

Depends on the reporter.

Huard has been known to lean toward hyperbole. He might end up being right, but he has not seen the kid in college game action either.

The opinion of the person who saw every Austin Mack snap in practice last year is the one whose opinion about Mack matters the most.

His name is Coach Kalen Deboer of the University of Alabama.

 

[BamaMoon]

So did a little research into DeBoer's history.

the rushing numbers seem to include sacks - taken from ESPN.com

Penix for 2 years at UW to run his system (didn't gather number of sacks here as the yardage makes it immaterial):
2023: 35 rushes for 8 yards 4900+ passing
2022: 35 rushes for 92 yards 4600+ passing

At Fresno State - starting QB (didn't gather number of sacks here as the yardage makes it immaterial):
2021: 71 rushes for 5 yards Over 4k passing yards
2020: 57 rushes for 18 yards - just over 2k passing

As OC at Indiana:
2019
Penix 22 rushes for 119 1300 + yards (just 6 games)
Other dude: 97 rushes for 252 2400+ passing (25 sacks for -134) long run of 21

OC at Fresno
2018 71 for 294 with 3600+ passing (12 sacks for -68); long run of 29
2017 57 for 302 with 2700+ passing (8 sacks for -60); long run of 57

so we don't have a guy who really has a track record of leveraging a heavy QB run approach. More like focusing on the QB executing the passing game and running out when you have to or maybe a surprise QB run once and a while but none of this seems to indicate wanting a heavy QB run offense.

@gtgilbert I appreciate the research and it just shows Deboer wants a passer not a runner at QB. Now, maybe there's a case for a QB who is great at the RPO, but the problem is JM can't even do that.

JM had 2800 yards passing and 500 yards rushing last year.

Penix had almost 5000 yards passing.

Now tell me what kind of QB CKD wants again? A passing one or running one?

Those who believe JM is going to be allowed to play like he did last year without major changes to adapt to CKD's system just aren't paying attention to who the new coach is.

If JM is next years QB his legs will be gravy but he better put some biscuits into his game he hasn't developed yet!

 

[BamaMoon]

While Coach DeBoer does like to modify his offense to suit the strengths of a team, I think you are forgetting that there are at least 2 other QBs on the roster who would start at many other places in the country. What you are suggesting, is something that he would do if he absolutely needed to, but where's the need when you have 2 other guys fully capable of running your offense? GMac has mentioned the possibility as well, but I just don't see it, unless Milroe wins the job first, then they decide to do that. I just find it hard to believe that building your offense around Jalen Milroe is going to be the first option when we have so much talent in the QB room. The best man will win first, and then after that, is when we tailor the offense around the strengths of the QB, not the other way around.

As for the part about DeBoer loving the speed, I don't know about Lonergan, but Simpson I know for sure has some speed. While Milroe is faster, I'm not sure the difference is significant enough to justify the trade off that you would be getting in the passing game. Even with Simpson, Deboer is still getting a more formidable running threat than Penix was (I'm assuming due to injuries), so either way, he's getting an upgrade in the QB running department.

Alot of talk about JM vs. AM, but the real winner in the coaching change might just be TS.

If he's gotten over the idea he needs to compete with JM's longball and just be a QB tactician (as he looked in some of the late season fill in duty), he may have the best path to the starters role in 2024.

Before the CNS retirement announcement the discussion on the board was that his decision not to transfer probably signaled that CNS told him the QB position was up for grabs next year.

Now, with the new coach who favors a pocket passer, he's really in a good position to make a push, especially if Mack needs more time to develop.

 

[mlh]

If JM is next years QB his legs will be gravy but he better put some biscuits into his game he hasn't developed yet!

Now I'm hungry.

 

[mlh]

Alot of talk about JM vs. AM, but the real winner in the coaching change might just be TS...

Now, with the new coach who favors a pocket passer, he's really in a good position to make a push, especially if Mack needs more time to develop.

Keep in mind, Mack is young. He skipped his senior year of HS to go to UW last year. So, even though he's been in college for 1 year he's the same age as a true freshman. I wonder about his maturity level and ability to be the leader of our offense.

 

[BamaMoon]

Keep in mind, Mack is young. He skipped his senior year of HS to go to UW last year. So, even though he's been in college for 1 year he's the same age as a true freshman. I wonder about his maturity level and ability to be the leader of our offense.

Thems the facts...a lot of it has to do with the 6 inches between Mack's ears.

But who/what are we comparing his maturity to?

How do we compare his 1 year of learning the system at Washington to JM's two years of being in the "Bama system" but coming into his 3rd year not really understanding it?

And, how much did TS and DL learn this year? And how quickly can all of them pick up the new system?

It's why the QB race is so interesting this year!

 

[Ledsteplin]

@gtgilbert I appreciate the research and it just shows Deboer wants a passer not a runner at QB. Now, maybe there's a case for a QB who is great at the RPO, but the problem is JM can't even do that.

JM had 2800 yards passing and 500 yards rushing last year.

Penix had almost 5000 yards passing.

Now tell me what kind of QB CKD wants again? A passing one or running one?

Those who believe JM is going to be allowed to play like he did last year without major changes to adapt to CKD's system just aren't paying attention to who the new coach is.

If JM is next years QB his legs will be gravy but he better put some biscuits into his game he hasn't developed yet!

To be fair, we know CNS wanted to run the ball with more success. And they did. So JM was not getting the number of pass plays as did Penix. And he also didn't get the pass protection from the OL as did Penix. I sure hope Huff fixes the OL issues. I think the new system does that.

 

[BamaMoon]

To be fair, we know CNS wanted to run the ball with more success. And they did. So JM was not getting the number of pass plays as did Penix. And he also didn't get the pass protection from the OL as did Penix. I sure hope Huff fixes the OL issues. I think the new system does that.

This is straight cut and paste from Wikipedia, but notice we haven't had a QB in recent years under CNS throw for less than what JM did this year. Your point about being more balanced as a running team is a good one, but I don't think he wanted JM to only throw for 2800 yards either.

1Bryce Young 4,872 2021
2Mac Jones 4,500 2020
3Tua Tagovailoa 3,966 2018
4Blake Sims 3,487 2014
5Bryce Young 3,328 2022
6Jake Coker 3,110 2015
7A. J. McCarron 3,063 2013
8Greg McElroy 2,9872010
9A. J. McCarron2,933 2012
10John Parker Wilson 2,846 2007

 

[BamaMoon]

To be fair, we know CNS wanted to run the ball with more success. And they did. So JM was not getting the number of pass plays as did Penix. And he also didn't get the pass protection from the OL as did Penix. I sure hope Huff fixes the OL issues. I think the new system does that.

To take it a step further, compare passing and rushing yards between Washington and Bama (team totals)

Washington
Passing: 5155
Rushing: 1776

Bama
Passing: 3086
Rushing: 2417

Point is that CKD doesn't despise rushing the ball. Their top rushing gainer had 1195 yards and their whole team only trailed Bama's team rushing totals by less than 600 yards but passing the ball downfield is clearly his MO on offenses they threw for over 2000 yards more than we did on the season.