Abortion

[Jon]

There is no child without an egg either. You didn’t give a real answer to the question. Why can one parent determine the outcome completely alone and one can be taken to court to participate even if they don’t want to? Where is their autonomy. Why can the other parent force them along with the government to participate in raising a child they don’t want when a woman can terminate the preganancy with no input from the father? Make that make logical sense from an equality point of view?

because the man will never have to potentially destroy their own body or their life to carry that child. It is a deeply inequitable scenario and wrought with extreme consequences. Allowing men to determine who has to carry a child can and has led to rapists choosing who they want to have their children. This is not hyperbole, it is happening now in this country

Girl, 13, gives birth after she was raped and denied abortion in Mississippi

The nearest abortion clinic – in Chicago – was too far away and too expensive for her mother to provide her with the procedure

www.theguardian.com

 

[AWRTR]

because the man will never have to potentially destroy their own body or their life to carry that child. It is a deeply inequitable scenario and wrought with extreme consequences. Allowing men to determine who has to carry a child can and has led to rapists choosing who they want to have their children. This is not hyperbole, it is happening now in this country

Girl, 13, gives birth after she was raped and denied abortion in Mississippi

The nearest abortion clinic – in Chicago – was too far away and too expensive for her mother to provide her with the procedure

www.theguardian.com

I think we are talking about two different things. I'm saying after the woman makes whatever choice she wants to make why can't the man make whatever choice he wants? If she carries the child to term why can't he make his own choices as it relates to his involvement with the child and child support paid?

 

[NationalTitles18]

I think an interesting question was asked earlier, but no one ever answered it. If a woman has the bodily autonomy to either carry the child to term or abort the child then what autonomy does the man have? If he doesn't want the child should he be forced to provide and care for the child? If the answer is yes then make that make logical sense for me. Why does one side of the coin get to make decisions and have autonomy and one doesn't? As a stand-up comedian said one time, "My money my choice. If you can kill the kid then I should at least be able to abandon him."

There are two main answers to this.

1. He does not have autonomy over the woman's body, but she does.

and

2. If the woman exercises her autonomy to give birth to a child then he is responsible to that eventual child.

Men, think carefully before having a little fun.

 

[AWRTR]

There are two main answers to this.

1. He does not have autonomy over the woman's body, but she does.

and

2. If the woman exercises her autonomy to give birth to a child then he is responsible to that eventual child.

Men, think carefully before having a little fun.

Ok let’s say she makes whatever decision she wants. I’m not saying he has any control over her choice. Keep the child or terminate the pregnancy. That’s totally up to her in this scenario no questions asked.

Now why is he responsible for her decision to keep the child if he has no say so? If she can decide for whatever reason to terminate the pregnancy or keep the child where is his autonomy. You just say he is responsible but why is he? Where is his autonomy to choose to be a father or not. She can choose to be a mother or not. Where is the equality of choice in that? Everyone just says he’s responsible, but why does the woman get to make the choice to keep the child and force him to be responsible when she can make either choice? Walk me through why he can’t choose to not be a father just like she can choose not to be a mother. She can do whatever she wants why can’t he after the fact since he had no choice before?

 

[NationalTitles18]

Ok let’s say she makes whatever decision she wants. I’m not saying he has any control over her choice. Keep the child or terminate the pregnancy. That’s totally up to her in this scenario no questions asked.

Now why is he responsible for her decision to keep the child if he has no say so? If she can decide for whatever reason to terminate the pregnancy or keep the child where is his autonomy. You just say he is responsible but why is he? Where is his autonomy to choose to be a father or not. She can choose to be a mother or not. Where is the equality of choice in that? Everyone just says he’s responsible, but why does the woman get to make the choice to keep the child and force him to be responsible when she can make either choice? Walk me through why he can’t choose to not be a father just like she can choose not to be a mother. She can do whatever she wants why can’t he after the fact since he had no choice before?

Because he needs to be a man and understand his choice was made when he implanted his sperm and after that it was no longer his decision.

 

[DzynKingRTR]

never thought I would ever see a Bill Burr bit become a debate.

 

[JDCrimson]

Men are making that decision all the time today whether to support the child. Failure to pay child support is inadequately enforced.

No one is talking about increasing the support or the penalties for failure to support the child on men. So women are losing their autonomy and men are keeping the autonomy they are already accustomed to.

The rapist is never going to support the child.

It baffles me how you cant see the uneven burden between women and men. And how you dont get slapped by the women in your own household pursuing equality in something that cant be equal by natural design.

Ok let’s say she makes whatever decision she wants. I’m not saying he has any control over her choice. Keep the child or terminate the pregnancy. That’s totally up to her in this scenario no questions asked.

Now why is he responsible for her decision to keep the child if he has no say so? If she can decide for whatever reason to terminate the pregnancy or keep the child where is his autonomy. You just say he is responsible but why is he? Where is his autonomy to choose to be a father or not. She can choose to be a mother or not. Where is the equality of choice in that? Everyone just says he’s responsible, but why does the woman get to make the choice to keep the child and force him to be responsible when she can make either choice? Walk me through why he can’t choose to not be a father just like she can choose not to be a mother. She can do whatever she wants why can’t he after the fact since he had no choice before?

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Vance said a couple of days ago that suburban women don't care about abortion one way or the other...

 

[Jon]

Men are making that decision all the time today whether to support the child. Failure to pay child support is inadequately enforced.

No one is talking about increasing the support or the penalties for failure to support the child on men. So women are losing their autonomy and men are keeping the autonomy they are already accustomed to.

The rapist is never going to support the child.

It baffles me how you cant see the uneven burden between women and men. And how you dont get slapped by the women in your own household pursuing equality in something that cant be equal by natural design.

they're smart enough to see it, seems they just don't care

 

[NationalTitles18]

Because he needs to be a man and understand his choice was made when he implanted his sperm and after that it was no longer his decision.

For clarity, the equivalent argument here for male vs female would be if the woman decided to give birth to a child and then abandoned all responsibility for the child she decided to bring into the world. The man's decision-making ends earlier than the woman's due to nature - at least in regards to whether a child will be born - , but once either makes the decision and the decision becomes final they cannot just escape their responsibility to the child without bearing consequences for their negligence.

 

[AWRTR]

For clarity, the equivalent argument here for male vs female would be if the woman decided to give birth to a child and then abandoned all responsibility for the child she decided to bring into the world. The man's decision-making ends earlier than the woman's due to nature - at least in regards to whether a child will be born - , but once either makes the decision and the decision becomes final they cannot just escape their responsibility to the child without bearing consequences for their negligence.

You are the first person to give a reasoned response to the question. Everyone else’s answer was “just because”.

 

[Bazza]

Vance said a couple of days ago that suburban women don't care about abortion one way or the other...

Is this what you are referring to?

“What do you say to suburban women out there who are marinating in this propaganda?” prompted Fox News host Laura Ingraham, claiming that some women have fallen into the belief that abortion is banned nationally.

“Well, first of all, I don’t buy that, Laura,” Vance said. “I think most suburban women care about the normal things that most Americans care about.”

J.D. Vance Makes Wild Claim of What “Normal” Women Care About

It has been zero days since J.D. Vance insulted women voters.

newrepublic.com

And this:

JD Vance continues to strike out, especially when it comes to knowing what women want.

On Laura Ingraham’s Fox News show the TV host set him up for a potential home run by saying that suburban women are being fed propaganda, and don’t realize that decisions on abortion are with the states and therefore shouldn’t be an issue in the federal election.

“First of all, I don’t buy that, Laura. I think most suburban women care about the normal things that most Americans care about,” he said, suggesting that abortion is not one of those things.

JD Vance Thinks Suburban Women Don’t Care About Abortion

“What is it that JD Vance thinks that normal women care about other than control over their own bodies?” asks The New Abnormal co-host Danielle Moodie.

www.thedailybeast.com

 

[AlexanderFan]

Joe didn't present a gotcha. He is simply saying the male has a responsibility to prevent pregnancy as well.

But even when birth control is used perfectly, it is not perfect. Depending on the method(s) used, the failure rate will vary, but there is always a chance of failure.

But if preventing unwanted pregnancies is an agreed upon goal as most of us believe it should be, why is it that multiple large conservative groups are pushing an end to birth control?

And if we can agree that saving the life and health of the mother in all cases is also a mutual goal then why are conservatives creating laws that place mothers at risk? Why do they want to outlaw medication abortion that is very effective in the roughly 2% of pregnancies that are ectopic and 100% nonviable? Why make a woman wait until she is septic and/or emergently near death before she can receive a medical abortion?

Do you answer for the actions of all liberals? These are my opinons.

The conservative answer is to let local government and the market dictate the available resources. The current “conservative “ and “liberal” mainstreams are well away from where they once were.

I made my thoughts quite clear on pregnancies that endanger the mother.

Absolutely the father has responsibility in preventing pregnancy, but he has absolutely no say in keeping or aborting the baby, which is our discussion. That responsibility is solely on the mother. How can fathers be drug into this discussion when no matter the level of precautions he takes his input into the decision is irrelevant?

Your chances that birth control fails are very small and make for a small amount of performed abortions. The whole abortion argument is that less than 20% of abortions justify the other 80% of convenience abortions.

The only goal I have is that people who don't want to have children don't do the thing that makes children. If those abortions can be reduced by any measure I would be a happier person.

 

[AlexanderFan]

As a woman who has known many girls, very young ones and somewhat older ones, as well as women, who were the victims of rape and incest, I will begin screaming at you now. Since you apparently are one of those males who has absolutely no earthly idea how much those terrible things happen to females and are not, yourself, a female-----GET BACK!!!!!!!!! Since you are a male, you need to do that anyway. Since you don't know what carrying a child to term or giving birth is like from having the actual experience personally, you also need to do that. Have you ever known a divorced woman who found herself pregnant in the process? A divorced woman who was married to an abusive man and finally freed herself? You have no earthly business deciding these things for the bodies, hearts or minds of people you don't know and, for the most part, know nothing about. If you haven't guessed, I was a victim. Don't you DARE demand that woman who was victimized and became pregnant to carry that baby to term unless it is her choice. You shouldn't demand it of any woman or girl at all. Are you serious?! How about demanding males keep their zippers up?! How about birth control on the male's part, too?! Yes, this really is an attack. If you understood more about this, you'd know why I am attacking!

Identity politics at it's finest, although I'm sure the men who share your opinion are allowed to continue. I trust you will "GET BACK" from any and all discussions and expressing your opinions that you have no experience with.

This is the internet, and you're using words, hardly an attack. I will lose as much sleep over being the "victim" of your "attack" as you will for attacking me in the first place, absolutely none.

We've been over the role of the man in regards to abortion: he has absolutely no role. The father can't make a woman have an abortion, nor can the father prevent a woman from having an abortion. That is the extent of the role of a man in abortion talks. Absolutely the man has a responsibility in preventing pregnancy if he doesn't want children (I've said this in another post, but obviously you're just looking to "attack"), and he falls directly in line with don't do the thing that makes kids if you don't want kids. It has been established that men have no say in the abortion procedure, so discussing the role of men is very short.

My stance has been consistent: the overwhelming majority of abortions are convenience abortions, and that number needs to be reduced. I've already said some abortions are necessary, why is it such a stretch to think that women who are victims of rape and incest wouldn't fall under that category?

What part of controlling am I taking in by suggesting that women use their "body autonomy" to not have unprotected sex if they don't want children?

 

[Huckleberry]

The whole abortion argument is that less than 20% of abortions justify the other 80% of convenience abortions.

This is not true.

 

[AlexanderFan]

I think we are talking about two different things. I'm saying after the woman makes whatever choice she wants to make why can't the man make whatever choice he wants? If she carries the child to term why can't he make his own choices as it relates to his involvement with the child and child support paid?

Dude he's going to bring out the hyperbole like it's the norm. It's the whole reason rape, incest, and medical necessity are used as reasons to justify the hundreds of thousands of other abortions.

 

[AlexanderFan]

This is not true.

You got a link to dispute it? Or just your opinion? Guttmacher Institute 2005

 

[Huckleberry]

What part of controlling am I taking in by suggesting that women use their "body autonomy" to not have unprotected sex if they don't want children?

Suggest away, but don't try to take away the woman's right to choose. That would be controlling.

 

[NationalTitles18]

Do you answer for the actions of all liberals? These are my opinons.

Like you, I can only "answer" for myself.

Your chances that birth control fails are very small and make for a small amount of performed abortions. The whole abortion argument is that less than 20% of abortions justify the other 80% of convenience abortions.

Research indicates that more than half of those who end up having an abortion were using at least one method of birth control in the month prior to becoming pregnant, so your 20% seems erroneous.

Absolutely the father has responsibility in preventing pregnancy, but he has absolutely no say in keeping or aborting the baby, which is our discussion. That responsibility is solely on the mother. How can fathers be drug into this discussion when no matter the level of precautions he takes his input into the decision is irrelevant?

Some were putting the onus solely on the woman to prevent pregnancy. Some took exception to that idea and made clear the man shares in that responsibility. Once the woman becomes pregnant she is in the driver's seat and has the final say.

The only goal I have is that people who don't want to have children don't do the thing that makes children. If those abortions can be reduced by any measure I would be a happier person.

I'd bet if you take a poll that all of us want to reduce the number of abortions when possible. It's absolutely true that abstinence would reduce that number, but for most people it is not realistic in any way and is therefore useful to a small percentage of people.

If we're serious about preventing unwanted pregnancies then we will employ sex education, easy and cheap/free access to birth control, and we will teach women to be strong in expressing their wishes and men to respect a woman's sexual autonomy.

Why should society spend taxpayer money on those things?

Because it benefits everyone.

 

[AlexanderFan]

Suggest away, but don't try to take away the woman's right to choose. That would be controlling.

My whole argument is to get out BEFORE the pregnancy and have the woman CHOOSE to not have unprotected sex. End of story.