Social Security increases payments to former govt employees.

[Tidewater]

You're about to get a minimum 15% across the board tax increase.

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at.

 

[dtgreg]

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at.

https://tariffcheck.org/

 

[Tidewater]

https://tariffcheck.org/

Okay, I see the source of the confusion.
Tariffs on goods from overseas are not an "across the board tax increase." It is a tax on goods brought into the United States from overseas.
If you do not buy foreign goods (or goods domestically made from foreign components) it is not an increase at all.
The impact on American-made goods is limited, but some consumers will shift to buying American-made complimentary goods and the increased demand for American goods will raise prices (depending on the price elasticity of demand for those goods).

 

[dtgreg]

Okay, I see the source of the confusion.
Tariffs on goods from overseas are not an "across the board tax increase." It is a tax on goods brought into the United States from overseas.
If you do not buy foreign goods (or goods domestically made from foreign components) it is not an increase at all.
The impact on American-made goods is limited, but some consumers will shift to buying American-made complimentary goods and the increased demand for American goods will raise prices (depending on the price elasticity of demand for those goods).

Hey, none of this would have affected my grandparents. They lived on a farm and grew their own meat and vegetables, canned their preserves and made dresses from flour sacks. If you have a mercedes you've converted to biodiesel or alcohol, you don't worry so much about the price of oil.

Most of us live in the global economy, though, You remember, the one Republicans have been pushing since 1980?

 

[Tidewater]

Hey, none of this would have affected my grandparents. They lived on a farm and grew their own meat and vegetables, canned their preserves and made dresses from flour sacks. If you have a mercedes you've converted to biodiesel or alcohol, you don't worry so much about the price of oil.

Most of us live in the global economy, though, You remember, the one Republicans have been pushing since 1980?

My point was that is not a "across the board" tax increase.

 

[dtgreg]

My point was that is not a "across the board" tax increase.

Wow

 

[TIDE-HSV]

My point was that is not a "across the board" tax increase.

The degree to which we've farmed out production overseas makes it damn close to a national VAT...

 

[Tidewater]

Wow

Okay, here is the amount and broad categories of things the US imports from the EU and exports to the EU.

The US imports from the EU manufactured goods, machinery and vehiucles and chemicals.
The EU imports from the US manufactured goods, machinery and vehiucles and chemicals and energy.
There is about a €200 billion imbalance between what we buy from them and what they buy from us.

How does EU trade fit into total US imports?

1​	Mexico	505.9​
2​	Canada	412.7​
3​	China	438.9​
4​	Germany	160.4​
5​	Japan	148.2​
6​	South Korea	131.5​
7​	Taiwan	116.3​
8​	Vietnam	136.6​

So, increasing tariff rates against the EU will not have an impact of trade with Mexico, Canada, China, but they woill have an impact on #4 Germany.
How high were tariff rates when Trump took office? How much of an increase if a 15% tariff?
If Trump gets the blame for lowering tax revenues by $4.5 trillion, does he get credit for raising tariff revenues by $2.4 trillion over the next decade?

 

[dtgreg]

Okay, here is the amount and broad categories of things the US imports from the EU and exports to the EU.
View attachment 51936
The US imports from the EU manufactured goods, machinery and vehiucles and chemicals.
The EU imports from the US manufactured goods, machinery and vehiucles and chemicals and energy.
There is about a €200 billion imbalance between what we buy from them and what they buy from us.

How does EU trade fit into total US imports?

1​	Mexico	505.9​
2​	Canada	412.7​
3​	China	438.9​
4​	Germany	160.4​
5​	Japan	148.2​
6​	South Korea	131.5​
7​	Taiwan	116.3​
8​	Vietnam	136.6​

So, increasing tariff rates against the EU will not have an impact of trade with Mexico, Canada, China, but they woill have an impact on #4 Germany.

How high were tariff rates when Trump took office? How much of an increase if a 15% tariff?
If Trump gets the blame for lowering tax revenues by $4.5 trillion, does he get credit for raising tariff revenues by $2.4 trillion over the next decade?

He most certainly does. We should take the Republicans' word that they are trying to destroy the America we have grown up with, the strongest country on earth and the beacon of freedom.

They want to destroy the administrative state. We will no longer have anyone in charge of determining whether we are being poisoned. They want to destroy "entitlements". To do this, they will bankrupt us. By borrowing money to allow the Gates, Soros, Buffets, Waltons, Uleins, etc to pay no taxes, thereby putting OUR money in their pockets. We will have to pay for their tax cuts with our tariffs. Why? because the bond market requires a fig leaf to keep from crashing. They have to be provided a "plausible" way for the U.S. to pay its debts, hence, tariffs. But it won't work.

Truth is, we will go bankrupt or their will be a revolution or whatever will come but it will be quite ugly. It's insanity. It's immoral. It's criminal.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

He most certainly does. We should take the Republicans' word that they are trying to destroy the America we have grown up with, the strongest country on earth and the beacon of freedom.

They want to destroy the administrative state. We will no longer have anyone in charge of determining whether we are being poisoned. They want to destroy "entitlements". To do this, they will bankrupt us. By borrowing money to allow the Gates, Soros, Buffets, Waltons, Uleins, etc to pay no taxes, thereby putting OUR money in their pockets. We will have to pay for their tax cuts with our tariffs. Why? because the bond market requires a fig leaf to keep from crashing. They have to be provided a "plausible" way for the U.S. to pay its debts, hence, tariffs. But it won't work.

Truth is, we will go bankrupt or their will be a revolution or whatever will come but it will be quite ugly. It's insanity. It's immoral. It's criminal.

Some people believe this has been going on for decades, long before Trump. There are also a lot of people in this country who haven't liked how our country's been either ever or for a long time. Personally, I think our place in this world has been weakening for decades, especially from a financial standpoint. A country doesn't get $37 trillion in debt and claim it's "strong" on the global market. Granted, Trump is doing his part in contributing, but our country has long been "slipping" in a lot of areas, especially financially and morally.

 

[JDCrimson]

While this is true, it does provide cover for domestic producers to raise prices by the same amount. Consumers dont keep track of prices and origin of production at point of purchase.

My point was that is not a "across the board" tax increase.

 

[Tidewater]

While this is true, it does provide cover for domestic producers to raise prices by the same amount. Consumers dont keep track of prices and origin of production at point of purchase.

I would agree with this generally, especially if there are only two producers of the taxed commodity. If there are only two producers of widgets, the US and Pangea. If the US slaps a 20% tariff on Pangean widgets, the American widget manufactures can raise their prices almost 20%.
If there are multiple countries producing widgets (say, Freedonia, Sylvania, and Zubrowka) and the US slaps Pangean widgets with a 20% tariff, then consumers can switch to buying widgets from other countries and American widget manufacturers can only raise their prices to the level of Freedonian, Sylvanian, or Zubrowkan widgets.

 

[UAH]

I would agree with this generally, especially if there are only two producers of the taxed commodity. If there are only two producers of widgets, the US and Pangea. If the US slaps a 20% tariff on Pangean widgets, the American widget manufactures can raise their prices almost 20%.
If there are multiple countries producing widgets (say, Freedonia, Sylvania, and Zubrowka) and the US slaps Pangean widgets with a 20% tariff, then consumers can switch to buying widgets from other countries and American widget manufacturers can only raise their prices to the level of Freedonian, Sylvanian, or Zubrowkan widgets.

When we are increasing the cost of critical components such as aluminum, steel, copper, rare earth magnets critical to US manufacturing job creation while basically eliminating large swaths of tourism, one of our largest income and job creating businesses, it matters little about the cheap clothing or toys made in Freedonia. They can be substituted or eliminated altogether. Those other items can't easily be substituted in the short term and will increase prices and will become economically crippling to a country that is teetering on the brink from our debt burden. I know we agree about the debt anyway.

We should be holding our allies closely and appealing for them to support our debt restructuring rather than antognizing them. Trump thinks the US is the hegemonic power it was after the fall of the Soviet Union. We are not and will never be again.

 

[Tidewater]

When we are increasing the cost of critical components such as aluminum, steel, copper, rare earth magnets critical to US manufacturing job creation while basically eliminating large swaths of tourism, one of our largest income and job creating businesses, it matters little about the cheap clothing or toys made in Freedonia. They can be substituted or eliminated altogether. Those other items can't easily be substituted in the short term and will increase prices and will become economically crippling to a country that is teetering on the brink from our debt burden. I know we agree about the debt anyway.

We should be holding our allies closely and appealing for them to support our debt restructuring rather than antognizing them. Trump thinks the US is the hegemonic power it was after the fall of the Soviet Union. We are not and will never be again.

I agree.
I do not like the tariffs per se.
I would much rather the administration had declared the policy objective first, and then crafted tariff policy as a means to that end.
If the policy objective was to get companies overseas to reshore industry here, fine. Figure out how long it would take to build a factory and train workers, and set the tariff increase to just after that date.
If the policy objective was to raise revenues, then figure out what the revenue-maximizing rate was on which commodities and set the rates that way (realizing that revenues will mostly come out of Americans pockets).
If the policy objective is to reduce non-tariff barriers, figure out who the wrost offenders are, notify them, and gradually ramp up tariffs until they reduce their non-tariff barriers.
If the policy objective was to isolate China and Russia diplomatically, then cozy up to needed allies (EU, Japan, Vietnam) while ratcheting up tariffs on Russia and China and start imposing secondary tariffs on Russian/Chinese allies we are not wooing and whom we do not mind kicking in the groin economically (e.g. Iran).
The policy objective, however, come first.

Instead, Trump has acted like he is a kid who found a new toy. Somebody told him foreigners pay the tariff and off he went.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

I agree.
I do not like the tariffs per se.
I would much rather the administration had declared the policy objective first, and then crafted tariff policy as a means to that end.
If the policy objective was to get companies overseas to reshore industry here, fine. Figure out how long it would take to build a factory and train workers, and set the tariff increase to just after that date.
If the policy objective was to raise revenues, then figure out what the revenue-maximizing rate was on which commodities and set the rates that way (realizing that revenues will mostly come out of Americans pockets).
If the policy objective is to reduce non-tariff barriers, figure out who the wrost offenders are, notify them, and gradually ramp up tariffs until they reduce their non-tariff barriers.
If the policy objective was to isolate China and Russia diplomatically, then cozy up to needed allies (EU, Japan, Vietnam) while ratcheting up tariffs on Russia and China and start imposing secondary tariffs on Russian/Chinese allies we are not wooing and whom we do not mind kicking in the groin economically (e.g. Iran).
The policy objective, however, come first.

Instead, Trump has acted like he is a kid who found a new toy. Somebody told him foreigners pay the tariff and off he went.

However, you are actually thinking. He doesn't really think. He just acts on impulse. Since the voters put him where he is, he has the whole world jumping to his impulses. What an ego trip for a narcissist...

 

[UAH]

However, you are actually thinking. He doesn't really think. He just acts on impulse. Since the voters put him where he is, he has the whole world jumping to his impulses. What an ego trip for a narcissist...

Have others noted how weak Starmer and the EU have appeared in their meetings with Trump at his golf club in Scotland. I probably shouldn't be but am surprised at how the EU appeared to have no consensus at all to enable von der Leyen to take a strong position with Trump.

It is obvious where the UK has sunken to but causes me to also doubt the viability of the EU and as a consequence NATO longer term.

I would be very interested in in other viewpoints.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Have others noted how weak Starmer and the EU have appeared in their meetings with Trump at his golf club in Scotland. I probably shouldn't be but am surprised at how the EU appeared to have no consensus at all to enable von der Leyen to take a strong position with Trump.

It is obvious where the UK has sunken to but causes me to also doubt the viability of the EU and as a consequence NATO longer term.

I would be very interested in in other viewpoints.

It's like having a bomb in your office that needs careful, calculated, and meticulous attention, not someone who just runs over to it and starts pulling wires. Trump just started pulling wires...

 

[Tidewater]

Have others noted how weak Starmer and the EU have appeared in their meetings with Trump at his golf club in Scotland. I probably shouldn't be but am surprised at how the EU appeared to have no consensus at all to enable von der Leyen to take a strong position with Trump.

It is obvious where the UK has sunken to but causes me to also doubt the viability of the EU and as a consequence NATO longer term.

I would be very interested in in other viewpoints.

The EU has grown to include so many countries that consensus on any issue will be difficult.
Bureaucrats in Brussels interpreted that as carte blanche to enact whatever crazy insulting policies they wanted and cram those policies down the throats of the member states. (One crazy example is that the EU has six laws regulating pillows. Why does an economic union like the EU need a single law on pillows, much less six?).
The EU has become the culmination of the Progressive dream of the rule of the "experts," and it turns out the "experts" are not appreciably brighter than their subjected peoples. The "experts" just have a different set of priorities and interests.
NATO, on the other hand, is functionally limited to defense and security, so there is a built-in mechanism to prevent the organization from doing something beyond its remit. If NATO tries to adopt a law regulating pillows, any single member can veto on the basis of pillows having nothing to do with defense and security.

 

[75thru79]

The EU has become the culmination of the Progressive dream of the rule of the "experts," and it turns out the "experts" are not appreciably brighter than their subjected peoples. The "experts" just have a different set of priorities and interests.

This is really what I hate about the Progressives. It's this "we know better than you so just sit back, shut-up, and let us run things. You should be happy that the elite among us are willing to step in and make things run right. The arrogance is off the charts.

 

[Tidewater]

This is really what I hate about the Progressives. It's this "we know better than you so just sit back, shut-up, and let us run things. You should be happy that the elite among us are willing to step in and make things run right. The arrogance is off the charts.

In fairness to the Progressives, at the start of the Progressive movement (1890s) the gaps in knowledge between the general population and the "experts" was quite large. In the intervening century and a third, that gap has shrunk.
And, Progressives underestimated the extent to which bureaucracy develops agendas of their own (or maybe they did foresee that and intended that to happen). The Public Broadcasting System is a case in point. When it was started, there were portions of the country underserved by commercial broadcasting. PBS helped fill the gaps. 85 years on, the communications environment has evolved (more commercial radio/TV stations, internet, etc.) and the gap PBS was intended to fill is not the same and may be gone altogether.
Meanwhile, PBS has developed its own constituencies, and adopted its own agenda, which negate the nonpartisan ideal on which they were founded.