Trump Attacks Iran, II

[JDCrimson]

So in the span of 3 weeks we have went from regime change and nuclear deterrence to just protecting access to the oil exports? What's the next downshift we will see if we cant indefinitely protect this access?

This administration is categorically the biggest bunch of idiots to ever lead a sovereign government since The Renaissance...

 

[crimsonaudio]

Somethin's happenin'...

 

[crimsonaudio]

So in the span of 3 weeks we have went from regime change and nuclear deterrence to just protecting access to the oil exports? What's the next downshift we will see if we cant indefinitely protect this access?

This administration is categorically the biggest bunch of idiots to ever lead a sovereign government since The Renaissance...

I get doubting this administration, but I'm not certain they're as categorically stupid as many here seem to believe.

I'm no Trumper, but I also rememeber many posters here repeatedly discouting Biden's (obvious) mental decline as 'stutters'.

IOW, I'm in wait-and-see-mode. If you follow news sources from all over the world, they're generally quite different than domestic sources that seemingly all have a tribal bias...

 

[JDCrimson]

I get doubting this administration, but I'm not certain they're as categorically stupid as many here seem to believe.

I'm no Trumper, but I also rememeber many posters here repeatedly discouting Biden's (obvious) mental decline as 'stutters'.

IOW, I'm in wait-and-see-mode. If you follow news sources from all over the world, they're generally quite different than domestic sources that seemingly all have a tribal bias...

We are all in wait and see what these idiots do next mode...

Its false equivalency, Biden didnt start a war in his mental decline...

You're telling me the mythical Mossad who laid in wait for a couple of decades to blow up a whole terrorist group with Pagers, cant affect regime change or impose nuclear deterrence? Something doesnt align here. With our air cover the Israelis are sufficiently motivated and bloodthirsty to affect regime change.

 

[crimsonaudio]

We are all in wait and see what these idiots do next mode...

I just wonder what the response will be if somehow things work out for the better.

I suspect I know what will be said and where the focus will be...

Just like with Biden, tribalists can never admit they were wrong and always latch onto the tiniest thread of hope to show the other tribe as wrong...

The fact that the current administration is constantly referred to as idiots and morons while the last administration was praised is proof-positive that many cannot see beyond their bubble.

 

[Its On A Slab]

I just wonder what the respone will be if somehow things work out for the better.

I suspect I know what will be said and where the focus will be...

Just like with Biden, tribalists can never admit they were wrong and always latch onto the tiniest thread of hope to show the other tribe as wrong...

The fact that the current administaration is constantly referred to as idiots and morons while the last administration was praised is proof-positive that many cannot see beyond their bubble.

Good grief, you make no bones about which tribe you belong to.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

This administration is categorically the biggest bunch of idiots to ever lead a sovereign government since The Renaissance...

That's true but that's largely because virtually every American administration (at least in the nuclear era) has largely sought to at least employ even if they did not follow varying opinions on how to conduct foreign policy. Even if they blundered their way into a morass, they had heard opposing views before they screwed up. LBJ had been warned about Vietnam, Carter was warned his hostage rescue had a 0% chance of succeeding (which led to the resignation of Cyrus Vance), Reagan was warned his arms for hostages deal was going to be exposed before it was ever tried, and W was warned by Powell "you break it, you bought it" in Iraq. Clinton, who went to office going to fix Bosnia, at least had the sense to listen and not get us up to our necks in the former Yugoslavia.

But the prime requirement now for being in this guy's administration is to simply parrot whatever comes out of the Head Baboon's mouth at any time, even if it contradicts his stated policy of years. Throw in the fact that we simply cannot believe a damn word they say about ANYTHING, and you have a foreign policy ripe for contradicting itself at every point. Oh - and then throw in the psychiatric disorders and obsessions this clown has with LOOKING tough but never personally BEING tough at any point in his life - and this guy's entertainment value should be as a heel wrestling manager back in the territory days where once your act gets tired, you move from Portland to Houston and do the same schtick all over again.

I'm hoping - against hope, I know - that because sometimes the dime bounces unpredictably like a football that the end result is far better than the planning and execution.

But what are the odds of that?

You'd have to have people who actually wanted what the USA was trying to give them. And as a reminder, even a skilled politician like Lyndon Johnson deceived himself to the point that he (as Hugh Sidey noted) apparently believed "Ho Chi Minh could be convinced to give up his dream of a unified Vietnam with the promise of a Tennessee Valley Authority in the Mekong Delta."

The delusions some of our leaders entertain are often amusing - except for all of the deaths they inflict.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Btw - for those who missed it - Fake Tough Guy went to Graceland yesterday and asked (I wish I was making this up).......


Informed that yes, Elvis was good at karate, the president responded: “Could I have taken him in a fight?”


What kind of person even ASKS this kind of question??????


But then again.....have you noticed anything?


People who died in wars he avoided are suckers and losers.
He hated McCain - who wore the uniform. (Trump would have given up the location of every troop in Vietnam, assuming he ever would have had the cojones to fly a fighter jet, which he didn't).
He hated Mueller - who wore the uniform.
He obsesses with fighting DEAD Elvis - who wore the uniform.

Trump only likes the military people he has around them because he knows they've been trained to largely follow orders without question. And notice he largely scrapes the bottom of the barrel for military personnel, criminals like Flynn and drunks like Kegseth.

 

[Bamaro]

I get doubting this administration, but I'm not certain they're as categorically stupid as many here seem to believe.

I'm no Trumper, but I also rememeber many posters here repeatedly discouting Biden's (obvious) mental decline as 'stutters'.

IOW, I'm in wait-and-see-mode. If you follow news sources from all over the world, they're generally quite different than domestic sources that seemingly all have a tribal bias...

Both can be true at once.

 

[pelleas]

I get doubting this administration, but I'm not certain they're as categorically stupid as many here seem to believe.

I'm no Trumper, but I also rememeber many posters here repeatedly discouting Biden's (obvious) mental decline as 'stutters'.

IOW, I'm in wait-and-see-mode. If you follow news sources from all over the world, they're generally quite different than domestic sources that seemingly all have a tribal bias...

The British sources I usually follow have nothing good to say about Trump. I think the EU is maybe not the best place to find non-Trump-sceptics, outside the EU hard right -- have you heard different?

 

[UAH]

I get doubting this administration, but I'm not certain they're as categorically stupid as many here seem to believe.

I'm no Trumper, but I also rememeber many posters here repeatedly discouting Biden's (obvious) mental decline as 'stutters'.

IOW, I'm in wait-and-see-mode. If you follow news sources from all over the world, they're generally quite different than domestic sources that seemingly all have a tribal bias...

I watch very little US News and certainly no broadcast media. I try to know what the view is from the BRIC countries India specifically and Europe particularly Northern Europe and Poland who live very near the Bear. I can say positively that both Israel and the Trump Administration have gotten the US, Europe and others into an economic and military quagmire that is going to be extremely difficult to resolve and is extremely dangerous from an escalation standpoint. The military situation in Israel with attacks from Iranian missles and drones with Chinese satellite networks and Russian targeting data is more than Natayanhu ever bargained for. What country be drawn to use tactical nuclear weapons first and what would be the response?

 

[crimsonaudio]

The British sources I usually follow have nothing good to say about Trump. I think the EU is maybe not the best place to find non-Trump-sceptics, outside the EU hard right -- have you heard different?

I’ve been reading a lot from middle-eastern sources, and they are far different than what I read from US and EU sources.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Good grief, you make no bones about which tribe you belong to.

I don’t belong to any side. The reality is there are tons of middle-east experts - that are from and live in the middle-east - who don’t know how this will turn out. Yet here on TF, we have people who recently pivoted from being voting experts to being educational experts to being middle-eastern political experts - seemingly wanting to see the US fail.

I’ve said many times that Trump is like Obama to me - I don’t care for some of his policies, but I want to see the US be successful.

So if I’m on a ‘side’ it’s simply the side of what’s best for the USA. I couldn’t care less who is driving the car if they get us where we need to go.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Both can be true at once.

Sure, but credibility is gone for those who refused to admit Biden was mentally gone yet now want us to believe they have insight into the ME that even lifelong experts lack…

 

[81usaf92]

I don’t belong to any side. The reality is there are tons of middle-east experts - that are from and live in the middle-east - who don’t know how this will turn out. Yet here on TF, we have people who recently pivoted from being voting experts to being educational experts to being middle-eastern political experts - seemingly wanting to see the US fail.

I’ve said many times that Trump is like Obama to me - I don’t care for some of his policies, but I want to see the US be successful.

So if I’m on a ‘side’ it’s simply the side of what’s best for the USA. I couldn’t care less who is driving the car if they get us where we need to go.

1) I don’t know if you are specifically referencing me but it’s hard not to take the educational, voting expert, and Middle East expert but seeing as that I am a teacher, lived in the Middle East, have a BA in Political Science, and have been in war zones I think I’m a little qualified in my opinion. You may disagree with it, but hey I’ve lived it to form it.

2) I don’t think anyone is cheering for Iran to win. If Trump finds a way out without making a complete fool of us then I will give him his flowers. But where do you really see that happening?

3) I do think it’s telling that there are a few on here that were overly optimistic about the size and scale of the troop and naval buildup. They were constantly posting about successful strikes, and anti regime protests and celebrations. But now they have pivoted to quoting random Gulf State actors who historically have been bigger Saber rattlers than the North Koreans and have been advocating for ground troops in Iran. Where has the confidence gone?

4) It’s also weird when we ask for the military objectives in Iran we get 4 different things a day. But when you point that out you get a “look at what Rubio clearly said” remark to which the obvious reply is “then why are we still there” yet they can’t answer that.

5) Obama vs Trump… You had me Biden vs Trump because the truth is that the last 10 years have just been reactionary administrations that just try to undo what the last administration did. Obama like him or hate him never made people feel dirty for how he represented America like Trump.


The truth is war is complicated. But what is not is whether you should or shouldn’t be involved in an unprovoked war. We should have never been involved in this war and everyone who is being honest with empirical facts can see that. Unless we were committed to regime change in Iran then there was absolutely no reason to go in, and if that was the reason we went then this was one of the weirdest ways to go about it.

 

[Its On A Slab]

I don’t belong to any side. The reality is there are tons of middle-east experts - that are from and live in the middle-east - who don’t know how this will turn out. Yet here on TF, we have people who recently pivoted from being voting experts to being educational experts to being middle-eastern political experts - seemingly wanting to see the US fail.

I’ve said many times that Trump is like Obama to me - I don’t care for some of his policies, but I want to see the US be successful.

So if I’m on a ‘side’ it’s simply the side of what’s best for the USA. I couldn’t care less who is driving the car if they get us where we need to go.

I just always find that the people complaining the most about tribalism are guilty of the same thing. To the point where they don't even see the forest for the trees in their "both-sides' quest.

 

[crimsonaudio]

I just always find that the people complaining the most about tribalism are guilty of the same thing. To the point where they don't even see the forest for the trees in their "both-sides' quest.

Possibly. I've condemned both Biden and Trump and both parties they represent.

When one tribe can ONLY post negatives about the other, that's where it's most obvious. Some here literally championed Biden's mental acuity, completely ignoring the plainly obvious, while never once suggesting anything Trump does is a good idea (or even better, saying he needs to be ousted via the 25A). And vice versa - there are MAGA posters who think everything Trump does is genius and that Biden was brain-dead for the entire four years he was in office.

If literally every post is rooting against the POTUS, on every position, tribalism is more important to that person than the good of the USA.

It's just humorous how many people post on these threads how stupid and moronic Trump and every person in his administration are while ME experts who have lived their entire lives there along with many leaders of the countries in the area (often muslim countries who historically hate Israel) are siding with the US and Israel in this attack.

It literally comes across as if some are wanting to see the US fail so they can pat each other on the back for calling Trump stupid...

I just want what's best for the USA.

 

[crimsonaudio]

1) I don’t know if you are specifically referencing me but it’s hard not to take the educational, voting expert, and Middle East expert but seeing as that I am a teacher, lived in the Middle East, have a BA in Political Science, and have been in war zones I think I’m a little qualified in my opinion. You may disagree with it, but hey I’ve lived it to form it.

100% was NOT thinking about you when I said that - I literally ran through the recent discussions that had wide-spread interactions from people, most of which we not resident experts (as you are in this case). Apologies for making you feel that way, in retrospect I can see how that might have come across.

Mea culpa.

2) I don’t think anyone is cheering for Iran to win. If Trump finds a way out without making a complete fool of us then I will give him his flowers. But where do you really see that happening?

3) I do think it’s telling that there are a few on here that were overly optimistic about the size and scale of the troop and naval buildup. They were constantly posting about successful strikes, and anti regime protests and celebrations. But now they have pivoted to quoting random Gulf State actors who historically have been bigger Saber rattlers than the North Koreans and have been advocating for ground troops in Iran. Where has the confidence gone?

4) It’s also weird when we ask for the military objectives in Iran we get 4 different things a day. But when you point that out you get a “look at what Rubio clearly said” remark to which the obvious reply is “then why are we still there” yet they can’t answer that.

Agreed on all this, though point #2 I might question. While not wanting to see Iran win, it seems rather obvious there are those who want Trump to 'lose' above all else.

I get it., he's unlikable much of the time.

5) Obama vs Trump… You had me Biden vs Trump because the truth is that the last 10 years have just been reactionary administrations that just try to undo what the last administration did. Obama like him or hate him never made people feel dirty for how he represented America like Trump.

I had my frustrations with Obama, but man I miss the old-school political 'class' he generally carried himself with. He seemed to understand the gravity of the position, I'm not sure anyone since has.

The truth is war is complicated. But what is not is whether you should or shouldn’t be involved in an unprovoked war. We should have never been involved in this war and everyone who is being honest with empirical facts can see that. Unless we were committed to regime change in Iran then there was absolutely no reason to go in, and if that was the reason we went then this was one of the weirdest ways to go about it.

Possibly. But Iran has demonstrated that they have ICBMs that reach far beyond the 2,000km limit they had said. They might have required time to dial them in but the UK was going to be within range in the not-too-distant future - and a county like Iran - led by religious lunatics - cannot be allowed to have weapons like that. Until they fired on Diego Garcia I questioned the decision to go, but now I do not.

 

[UAH]

100% was NOT thinking about you when I said that - I literally ran through the recent discussions that had wide-spread interactions from people, most of which we not resident experts (as you are in this case). Apologies for making you feel that way, in retrospect I can see how that might have come across.

Mea culpa.

Agreed on all this, though point #2 I might question. While not wanting to see Iran win, it seems rather obvious there are those who want Trump to 'lose' above all else.

I get it., he's unlikable much of the time.


I had my frustrations with Obama, but man I miss the old-school political 'class' he generally carried himself with. He seemed to understand the gravity of the position, I'm not sure anyone since has.


Possibly. But Iran has demonstrated that they have ICBMs that reach far beyond the 2,000km limit they had said. They might have required time to dial them in but the UK was going to be within range in the not-too-distant future - and a county like Iran - led by religious lunatics - cannot be allowed to have weapons like that. Until they fired on Diego Garcia I questioned the decision to go, but now I do not.

It sounds rediculous but there are people in and around the middle east who question if it was an Iranian Missle that hit Diego Garcia. It would be very interesting to see tracking data.

 

[crimsonaudio]

It sounds rediculous but there are people in and around the middle east who question if it was an Iranian Missle that hit Diego Garcia. It would be very interesting to see tracking data.

Nothing hit DG - two were launched, initial reports were that one failed in flight and the other was intercepted.