Off-season dive into CNS's, pre-Alabama Years (comparing them to CKD's flaw of "Not being prepared" in some games)

[BamaMoon]

With a tip of the cap to 4 Q's excellent post yesterday and some of the discussion in that thread, I started digging into one of CKD's tendencies to lose or not play well/look unprepared in some of his Alabama games thus far.

To be totally transparent, I used AI to run down most of this information. My original thought was that some of this may be due to CKD's age or lack of games coached up to the age compared to CNS.

What I found was pretty eye-opening: While both CNS and CKD were both hired at age 49 when they came to Alabama, Saban had coached in 66 more games as either a major college coach or NFL coach. Not only that, but in the 182 to 116 coaching advantage that Saban enjoyed over Deboer as they started their tenure at age 49 at Alabama (giving Saban 66 more games as a HC than Deboer), only 46 of Deboer's games had been at the FBS level at Fresno State and Washington.

So, just comparing Deboer's experience to CNS at age 49 without understanding the difference in "experience" and "experience" at higher levels of coaching, and it shouldn't be surprising that Deboer isn't comparing well against CNS in games when their teams looked unprepared and/or got beat by inferior teams.

The real "test" is to compare CNS's previous 66 games before coming to Alabama to see if he ever had teams that struggled like Deboer's, and, as you might suppose, CNS had some games like that too.

What I'm going to try to do is post the AI conversation in the next comment so you can read the AI Chat.

 

[BamaMoon]

Question to AI: How does Kalen Deboer age when he came to Alabama compare to Nick Saban's when he went there to coach?

Kalen DeBoer was hired by Alabama at age 49, which is the exact same age Nick Saban was when he arrived in Tuscaloosa in 2007. Despite the shared age at hiring, fans frequently joke that DeBoer has "aged in dog years" due to the intense scrutiny of stepping in for a legend. Both coaches faced immense pressure in their early tenures, though their starting points were distinct. Saban took over a program that required a complete rebuild, starting his inaugural 2007 season with a 7-6 record. Conversely, DeBoer stepped into an already established national contender, finishing his first season with a 9-4 record before navigating a heavily scrutinized sophomore year.

Question to AI: Compare two more things in regard to Deboer and Saban: 1. The number of games they both had coached when they arrived at Alabama and 2. compare the number of games that their teams didn't appear to be as prepared Alabama fans might expect.

1. Games Coached Before Arriving at Alabama: When arriving in Tuscaloosa, Nick Saban had a massive edge in total career games coached, having extensive experience at both the college and NFL levels. Nick Saban (182 games): Before taking the Alabama job in 2007, Saban coached 150 college games (achieving a 91-58-1 record across Toledo, Michigan State, and LSU) plus 32 NFL games as the head coach of the Miami Dolphins (15-17 record).Kalen DeBoer (116 games): Before taking over in 2024, DeBoer coached 116 total college games, compiling a 104-12 record. However, 70 of those games were at the NAIA level with Sioux Falls, meaning he had only 46 games of FBS head coaching experience (at Fresno State and Washington).

2. Games Where the Team Appeared Underprepared. To Alabama fans, "underprepared" usually manifests as a highly favored Crimson Tide team losing to an unranked opponent. Comparing how long it took each coach to register 4 losses to unranked teams highlights a stark difference in consistency: Nick Saban: It took Saban 230 games spanning 17 seasons to lose 4 times to unranked teams. He held a legendary 136-3 record when favored by 14+ points, meaning his teams were almost universally mentally prepared to handle inferior opponents. Kalen DeBoer: It took DeBoer just 14 games into his Alabama tenure to suffer his 4th loss against an unranked opponent. Fans pointed to these early stumbles as clear indicators of a team lacking the rigorous week-to-week preparation that defined the Saban era

Question to AI: So Saban had 66 more games experience as a head coach? Now, indicate games in that 66 game advantage for Saban where some of his earlier teams at MSU or LSU might have appeared to be unprepared for games.

Yes, Nick Saban held exactly a 66-game head coaching experience advantage over Kalen DeBoer when arriving at Alabama (182 games vs. 116 games).
While Saban became the "GOAT" by building teams known for hyper-focused preparation, he was not always immune to early-career stumbles. During that 66-game difference period—which primarily covers his formative years building programs at Michigan State (1995–1999) and LSU (2000–2004)—Saban's teams suffered several notable losses where they looked entirely unready, fell victim to massive upsets, or unraveled due to mistakes. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
Several games stand out from his early career where his teams appeared drastically underprepared: [1, 2]

1. The Head Coaching Debut Disasters
Before he mastered first-game preparation, Saban's debuts at both Michigan State and LSU saw his teams get completely overwhelmed:

• 1995: Michigan State vs. Nebraska (Lost 50-10): In his very first game as the Spartans' head coach, Saban’s squad looked entirely outclassed. They were thoroughly dominated by Tom Osborne's Cornhuskers in a blowout that Saban later admitted left him doubting his career choice. [1, 2]
• 2000: LSU vs. Western Carolina (Won 58-0 but unraveled next week): While his actual LSU debut was a blowout win, his team showed massive preparation cracks immediately after. In Saban's first major test, a heavily favored LSU team went on the road to Houston and turned the ball over five times in an ugly 34-13 loss. [1, 2]

2. The Head-Scratching "Buy-Game" Upsets
Much like Kalen DeBoer's shocking early stumbles against unranked opponents, early-career Saban occasionally let his teams overlook inferior competition:

• 2000: LSU vs. UAB (Lost 13-10): In Saban's first year at LSU, the Tigers welcomed the UAB Blazers to Baton Rouge as heavy favorites. LSU's offense looked completely flat and out of sync, sputtering all night and allowing UAB to hit a game-winning field goal as time expired. [1, 2, 3]
• 1998: Michigan State vs. Purdue/Wisconsin: Fresh off a legendary, season-defining upset over #1 Ohio State, Saban's 1998 Spartans completely failed to handle success. They looked entirely unfocused in subsequent weeks, suffering ugly, uncompetitive blowout losses to Purdue and Wisconsin that cost them a bowl bid. [1, 2]

3. The Lack of Discipline & Blowouts
Saban's signature standard of flawless execution took years to perfect. His early years featured games where execution entirely broke down: [1]

• 2002: LSU vs. Crimson Tide (Lost 31-0): Facing a post-DuBose Alabama team in Baton Rouge, Saban’s Tigers were completely shut out at home. The team looked lifeless on offense and entirely unprepared to match Alabama's intensity.
• 1998: Michigan State vs. Colorado State & Oregon: Saban's fourth year at MSU nearly collapsed after his team looked completely unprepared to open the season, losing to mid-major Colorado State and then getting blown out by Oregon. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

The Takeaway
The 66-game experience gap represents the time Saban spent making these exact mistakes. He used the painful lessons from being outcoached at Michigan State and LSU to build the rigid, meticulous "Process" he later implemented at Alabama. DeBoer is essentially trying to replicate Saban's late-career consistency without having had the benefit of Saban's 66-game learning curve

 

[AlexanderFan]

Kalen DeBoer was hired by Alabama at age 49, which is the exact same age Nick Saban was when he arrived in Tuscaloosa in 2007. Despite the shared age at hiring, fans frequently joke that DeBoer has "aged in dog years" due to the intense scrutiny of stepping in for a legend. Both coaches faced immense pressure in their early tenures, though their starting points were distinct. Saban took over a program that required a complete rebuild, starting his inaugural 2007 season with a 7-6 record. Conversely, DeBoer stepped into an already established national contender, finishing his first season with a 9-4 record before navigating a heavily scrutinized sophomore year.



1. Games Coached Before Arriving at Alabama: When arriving in Tuscaloosa, Nick Saban had a massive edge in total career games coached, having extensive experience at both the college and NFL levels. Nick Saban (182 games): Before taking the Alabama job in 2007, Saban coached 150 college games (achieving a 91-58-1 record across Toledo, Michigan State, and LSU) plus 32 NFL games as the head coach of the Miami Dolphins (15-17 record).Kalen DeBoer (116 games): Before taking over in 2024, DeBoer coached 116 total college games, compiling a 104-12 record. However, 70 of those games were at the NAIA level with Sioux Falls, meaning he had only 46 games of FBS head coaching experience (at Fresno State and Washington).

2. Games Where the Team Appeared Underprepared. To Alabama fans, "underprepared" usually manifests as a highly favored Crimson Tide team losing to an unranked opponent. Comparing how long it took each coach to register 4 losses to unranked teams highlights a stark difference in consistency: Nick Saban: It took Saban 230 games spanning 17 seasons to lose 4 times to unranked teams. He held a legendary 136-3 record when favored by 14+ points, meaning his teams were almost universally mentally prepared to handle inferior opponents. Kalen DeBoer: It took DeBoer just 14 games into his Alabama tenure to suffer his 4th loss against an unranked opponent. Fans pointed to these early stumbles as clear indicators of a team lacking the rigorous week-to-week preparation that defined the Saban era



Yes, Nick Saban held exactly a 66-game head coaching experience advantage over Kalen DeBoer when arriving at Alabama (182 games vs. 116 games).
While Saban became the "GOAT" by building teams known for hyper-focused preparation, he was not always immune to early-career stumbles. During that 66-game difference period—which primarily covers his formative years building programs at Michigan State (1995–1999) and LSU (2000–2004)—Saban's teams suffered several notable losses where they looked entirely unready, fell victim to massive upsets, or unraveled due to mistakes. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
Several games stand out from his early career where his teams appeared drastically underprepared: [1, 2]

1. The Head Coaching Debut Disasters
Before he mastered first-game preparation, Saban's debuts at both Michigan State and LSU saw his teams get completely overwhelmed:

• 1995: Michigan State vs. Nebraska (Lost 50-10): In his very first game as the Spartans' head coach, Saban’s squad looked entirely outclassed. They were thoroughly dominated by Tom Osborne's Cornhuskers in a blowout that Saban later admitted left him doubting his career choice. [1, 2]
• 2000: LSU vs. Western Carolina (Won 58-0 but unraveled next week): While his actual LSU debut was a blowout win, his team showed massive preparation cracks immediately after. In Saban's first major test, a heavily favored LSU team went on the road to Houston and turned the ball over five times in an ugly 34-13 loss. [1, 2]

2. The Head-Scratching "Buy-Game" Upsets
Much like Kalen DeBoer's shocking early stumbles against unranked opponents, early-career Saban occasionally let his teams overlook inferior competition:

• 2000: LSU vs. UAB (Lost 13-10): In Saban's first year at LSU, the Tigers welcomed the UAB Blazers to Baton Rouge as heavy favorites. LSU's offense looked completely flat and out of sync, sputtering all night and allowing UAB to hit a game-winning field goal as time expired. [1, 2, 3]
• 1998: Michigan State vs. Purdue/Wisconsin: Fresh off a legendary, season-defining upset over #1 Ohio State, Saban's 1998 Spartans completely failed to handle success. They looked entirely unfocused in subsequent weeks, suffering ugly, uncompetitive blowout losses to Purdue and Wisconsin that cost them a bowl bid. [1, 2]

3. The Lack of Discipline & Blowouts
Saban's signature standard of flawless execution took years to perfect. His early years featured games where execution entirely broke down: [1]

• 2002: LSU vs. Crimson Tide (Lost 31-0): Facing a post-DuBose Alabama team in Baton Rouge, Saban’s Tigers were completely shut out at home. The team looked lifeless on offense and entirely unprepared to match Alabama's intensity.
• 1998: Michigan State vs. Colorado State & Oregon: Saban's fourth year at MSU nearly collapsed after his team looked completely unprepared to open the season, losing to mid-major Colorado State and then getting blown out by Oregon. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

The Takeaway
The 66-game experience gap represents the time Saban spent making these exact mistakes. He used the painful lessons from being outcoached at Michigan State and LSU to build the rigid, meticulous "Process" he later implemented at Alabama. DeBoer is essentially trying to replicate Saban's late-career consistency without having had the benefit of Saban's 66-game learning curve

You’re going to make a lot of friends with this post.

 

[BamaMoon]

You’re going to make a lot of friends with this post.

Not my intention, but I like having friends!

But, I do think the information perhaps sheds a lot of light on one of our BIG concerns about CKD.

Now, let's see if he learns from some of those games like CNS did and starts to show the improvement every Tide fan expects!!!

 

[davefrat]

Not my intention, but I like having friends!

But, I do think the information perhaps sheds a lot of light on one of our BIG concerns about CKD.

Now, let's see if he learns from some of those games like CNS did and starts to show the improvement every Tide fan expects!!!

Fair or not, he's not going to get much longer to figure it out if he continues to field teams several times a year that look like they stayed up drinking until 4am the night before.

 

[4Q Basket Case]

Kalen DeBoer was hired by Alabama at age 49, which is the exact same age Nick Saban was when he arrived in Tuscaloosa in 2007. Despite the shared age at hiring, fans frequently joke that DeBoer has "aged in dog years" due to the intense scrutiny of stepping in for a legend. Both coaches faced immense pressure in their early tenures, though their starting points were distinct. Saban took over a program that required a complete rebuild, starting his inaugural 2007 season with a 7-6 record. Conversely, DeBoer stepped into an already established national contender, finishing his first season with a 9-4 record before navigating a heavily scrutinized sophomore year.



1. Games Coached Before Arriving at Alabama: When arriving in Tuscaloosa, Nick Saban had a massive edge in total career games coached, having extensive experience at both the college and NFL levels. Nick Saban (182 games): Before taking the Alabama job in 2007, Saban coached 150 college games (achieving a 91-58-1 record across Toledo, Michigan State, and LSU) plus 32 NFL games as the head coach of the Miami Dolphins (15-17 record).Kalen DeBoer (116 games): Before taking over in 2024, DeBoer coached 116 total college games, compiling a 104-12 record. However, 70 of those games were at the NAIA level with Sioux Falls, meaning he had only 46 games of FBS head coaching experience (at Fresno State and Washington).

2. Games Where the Team Appeared Underprepared. To Alabama fans, "underprepared" usually manifests as a highly favored Crimson Tide team losing to an unranked opponent. Comparing how long it took each coach to register 4 losses to unranked teams highlights a stark difference in consistency: Nick Saban: It took Saban 230 games spanning 17 seasons to lose 4 times to unranked teams. He held a legendary 136-3 record when favored by 14+ points, meaning his teams were almost universally mentally prepared to handle inferior opponents. Kalen DeBoer: It took DeBoer just 14 games into his Alabama tenure to suffer his 4th loss against an unranked opponent. Fans pointed to these early stumbles as clear indicators of a team lacking the rigorous week-to-week preparation that defined the Saban era



Yes, Nick Saban held exactly a 66-game head coaching experience advantage over Kalen DeBoer when arriving at Alabama (182 games vs. 116 games).
While Saban became the "GOAT" by building teams known for hyper-focused preparation, he was not always immune to early-career stumbles. During that 66-game difference period—which primarily covers his formative years building programs at Michigan State (1995–1999) and LSU (2000–2004)—Saban's teams suffered several notable losses where they looked entirely unready, fell victim to massive upsets, or unraveled due to mistakes. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
Several games stand out from his early career where his teams appeared drastically underprepared: [1, 2]

1. The Head Coaching Debut Disasters
Before he mastered first-game preparation, Saban's debuts at both Michigan State and LSU saw his teams get completely overwhelmed:

• 1995: Michigan State vs. Nebraska (Lost 50-10): In his very first game as the Spartans' head coach, Saban’s squad looked entirely outclassed. They were thoroughly dominated by Tom Osborne's Cornhuskers in a blowout that Saban later admitted left him doubting his career choice. [1, 2]
• 2000: LSU vs. Western Carolina (Won 58-0 but unraveled next week): While his actual LSU debut was a blowout win, his team showed massive preparation cracks immediately after. In Saban's first major test, a heavily favored LSU team went on the road to Houston and turned the ball over five times in an ugly 34-13 loss. [1, 2]

2. The Head-Scratching "Buy-Game" Upsets
Much like Kalen DeBoer's shocking early stumbles against unranked opponents, early-career Saban occasionally let his teams overlook inferior competition:

• 2000: LSU vs. UAB (Lost 13-10): In Saban's first year at LSU, the Tigers welcomed the UAB Blazers to Baton Rouge as heavy favorites. LSU's offense looked completely flat and out of sync, sputtering all night and allowing UAB to hit a game-winning field goal as time expired. [1, 2, 3]
• 1998: Michigan State vs. Purdue/Wisconsin: Fresh off a legendary, season-defining upset over #1 Ohio State, Saban's 1998 Spartans completely failed to handle success. They looked entirely unfocused in subsequent weeks, suffering ugly, uncompetitive blowout losses to Purdue and Wisconsin that cost them a bowl bid. [1, 2]

3. The Lack of Discipline & Blowouts
Saban's signature standard of flawless execution took years to perfect. His early years featured games where execution entirely broke down: [1]

• 2002: LSU vs. Crimson Tide (Lost 31-0): Facing a post-DuBose Alabama team in Baton Rouge, Saban’s Tigers were completely shut out at home. The team looked lifeless on offense and entirely unprepared to match Alabama's intensity.
• 1998: Michigan State vs. Colorado State & Oregon: Saban's fourth year at MSU nearly collapsed after his team looked completely unprepared to open the season, losing to mid-major Colorado State and then getting blown out by Oregon. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

The Takeaway
The 66-game experience gap represents the time Saban spent making these exact mistakes. He used the painful lessons from being outcoached at Michigan State and LSU to build the rigid, meticulous "Process" he later implemented at Alabama. DeBoer is essentially trying to replicate Saban's late-career consistency without having had the benefit of Saban's 66-game learning curve

Dang! There you go again injecting data, logic and historical fact into what should be an emotional, reactionary argument!

Seriously, well done, sir!

 

[BamaInBham]

BamaMoon, this a a great thread, both in intent and substance. To add a bit of fuel to your fire and buttress your point - Nick Saban was 55 when he arrived in Tuscaloosa in 2007, having been born Oct 31, 1951.

 

[arthurdawg]

BamaMoon, this a a great thread, both in intent and substance. To add a bit of fuel to your fire and buttress your point - Nick Saban was 55 when he arrived in Tuscaloosa in 2007, having been born Oct 31, 1951.

I thought Saban was older than 49... Now I don't even have to Google.

I have to give DeBoer a few mulligans in that Saban had a captive roster and now the dynamics are very different indeed. That and the competition has increased immensely from week to week as the rosters have averaged out. Not to take away from Saban's first three years, which were an incredible rebuild.

I think the big thing this year is looking prepared week to week, showing evidence that they can build a solid running game, and holding together a good roster and improving. I'm good with that. There have been so many changes since 2020, that would be a solid run and hopefully lead to a reasonable ability to make a run in 2027. And if we win a few more games this year, even better.

 

[BamaMoon]

BamaMoon, this a a great thread, both in intent and substance. To add a bit of fuel to your fire and buttress your point - Nick Saban was 55 when he arrived in Tuscaloosa in 2007, having been born Oct 31, 1951.

Thanks for the correction. Just goes to prove AI doesn't always get the details correct.

 

[CB4]

I believe if we’re are going to make the
Head Coaching experience comparison between CKD and CNS prior to their arrival in Tuscaloosa, I think there needs to be context.

First, CKD had three stops prior to Alabama ; Sioux Falls (NAIA 5 years) Fresno State (G5-D1 -2 years) and Washington (P5-D1-2 years)

Sioux Falls - Coach DeBoer took the reins of a highly successful NAIA program from Bob Young when he retired after 23 years. While only winning one NAIA championship in his tenure, Young’s team were perennial contenders for their conference championship and national titles in his last ten years prior to Coach DeBoer. While DeBoer’s 67-3 record was nothing short of amazing, it certainly was NOT a rebuild in any way, shape or form. Young left the program in great shape and on very solid ground.

Fresno State- Coach DeBoer took over for Jeff Tedford, who had stepped aside for health reasons. Tedford previously led Fresno for three seasons with a respectable 26-14 record and finishing first in Mountain West in 2017 and 2018. Tedford struggle physically in 2019 with his health and the team slid to 4-8 and his subsequent resignation. Coach DeBoer took over in the 2020 covid year, playing only six games - finishing 3-3. IMO, hard to glean much from that. CKD followed with a respectable 9-3 and second in the Mountan West. While CKD had to navigate the final year of Tedford’s health issues and the Covid issues everyone faced, Tedford certainly hadn’t turned the program into an afterthought.

Washington-.Coach DeBoer stepped into a program in turmoil after two years of the Jimmy Lake experiment following Chris Peterson’s “retirement”. Even with the disastrous Jimmy Lake, the program has continued to recruit well by PAC 12 standards and were pretty much a .500 program when Lake got fired. So Coach DeBoer took a program in need of some “retooling”, not necessarily “rebuilding”, leading to his 11-2 second place PAC12 finish and of course his run to the National Title game runner up finish at 14-1.

My point: not questioning his head coaching abilities, however his experience was at 1) NAIA (pretty much division 2 equivalent), a G5 and a P5.

For the sake of brevity, I’m not going to go in-depth on Coach Saban’s head coaching history as most here are familiar with it. But my major points are 1) it came at 1 G5 (Toledo - 1 year), 2 P5 (MSU and LSU - five years each) and one NFL team (2 years) and 2) at each stop a major retool/rebuild was needed.

In his one year at Toledo before taking the DC position with the Browns under Bill Belichick, the Rockets went 9-2. The previous 5 years Toledo had been a perennial .500 team. When Coach Saban took over Michigan State, George Perles had led them through a long career of mediocrity and little question it was a full rebuild from the jump. LSU? DeNardo took the flagship program in the state of Louisiana, a state loaded with talent, and burned it to the ground in his last two seasons. And in four years Coach Saban delivered a national title there, granted there were bumps and hiccups along the way. NFL and the Dolphins? I think the future looked bright there after two years and Wayne Huizenga, the owner, had seen enough movement in a positive direction he wanted Coach Saban to stay.

What I’m getting at is this: AI is simply a tool. It can give you the answers it thinks you want. It doesn’t necessarily give you the context or rationale for those answers. Not all head coaching experiences are “created equal”. We understand that here as educated fans of the game. AI? Not in many cases.

This isn’t written as some form of indictment of Coach DeBoer. Truthfully, for me the jury is still out. However, that doesn’t mean I don’t want him to succeed. To the contrary, I do for these reasons. First, I think he is a man of high character. I think at times he is honest to a fault, but that is neither here nor there. Next, I think he is a quality coach. Is he good enough to withstand the rigors of the SEC year after year and the scrutiny that comes with this job? Only time will tell. And finally, Coach DeBoer isn’t going anywhere in the near future unless he decides he wants to leave. Period. End of statement. Fair or not, Alabama coaches will be compared to whomever fans see as the pinnacle. I’m sure Bryant was compared to Wade or Thomas. Others like Perkins, Stallings, et al (including Saban) had Bryant’s shadow hanging over them. And each had their own set of circumstances and situations to deal with that made the job that much more difficult when compared to the previous coach. Much of that is same for Coach DeBoer. Yep it is a totally different world from what Coach Saban had to deal with. But Coach DeBoer wasn’t blindsided by that. He knew that when he took the job.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

One glaringly obvious thing to me in looking at the information provided is that CKD doesn't have the years or level of experience as Saban did when taking over Alabama, which means A LOT. At 49, he is six years younger than Saban was when Saban took over Alabama. He also hasn't been exposed to the great football knowledge Saban was, which again, means A LOT. Granted, all coaches learn something each year they coach but most coaches' learning comes on the front half of their career and the longer they coach the learning curve starts flattening out rather than going upward.

I think CKD is still learning a lot about the game and getting a crash course now that he is in the SEC. I can tell by his responses from when he first got here til now that he's learned that the SEC is a much, much more physical conference than he anticipated, but I think he "gets it". As a fan , I'm willing to give some years for "learning" and "becoming" a better coach than if he were 55 years old. At 49 and looking at his previous stops, he simply doesn't have the level of experience and exposure to great football as Saban did before arriving here.

Look at Mike Krzyzewski for Duke, I watched a thing on him a few years ago and Duke was considering letting him go after three years because of his record. Then all of a sudden, they took off and he went on to win 5 national titles and become the greatest basketball coach in Duke history. Context matters and should frame our expectations for CKD and his tenure.

 

[BamaMoon]

I believe if we’re are going to make the
Head Coaching experience comparison between CKD and CNS prior to their arrival in Tuscaloosa, I think there needs to be context.

First, CKD had three stops prior to Alabama ; Sioux Falls (NAIA 5 years) Fresno State (G5-D1 -2 years) and Washington (P5-D1-2 years)

Sioux Falls - Coach DeBoer took the reins of a highly successful NAIA program from Bob Young when he retired after 23 years. While only winning one NAIA championship in his tenure, Young’s team were perennial contenders for their conference championship and national titles in his last ten years prior to Coach DeBoer. While DeBoer’s 67-3 record was nothing short of amazing, it certainly was NOT a rebuild in any way, shape or form. Young left the program in great shape and on very solid ground.

Fresno State- Coach DeBoer took over for Jeff Tedford, who had stepped aside for health reasons. Tedford previously led Fresno for three seasons with a respectable 26-14 record and finishing first in Mountain West in 2017 and 2018. Tedford struggle physically in 2019 with his health and the team slid to 4-8 and his subsequent resignation. Coach DeBoer took over in the 2020 covid year, playing only six games - finishing 3-3. IMO, hard to glean much from that. CKD followed with a respectable 9-3 and second in the Mountan West. While CKD had to navigate the final year of Tedford’s health issues and the Covid issues everyone faced, Tedford certainly hadn’t turned the program into an afterthought.

Washington-.Coach DeBoer stepped into a program in turmoil after two years of the Jimmy Lake experiment following Chris Peterson’s “retirement”. Even with the disastrous Jimmy Lake, the program has continued to recruit well by PAC 12 standards and were pretty much a .500 program when Lake got fired. So Coach DeBoer took a program in need of some “retooling”, not necessarily “rebuilding”, leading to his 11-2 second place PAC12 finish and of course his run to the National Title game runner up finish at 14-1.

My point: not questioning his head coaching abilities, however his experience was at 1) NAIA (pretty much division 2 equivalent), a G5 and a P5.

For the sake of brevity, I’m not going to go in-depth on Coach Saban’s head coaching history as most here are familiar with it. But my major points are 1) it came at 1 G5 (Toledo - 1 year), 2 P5 (MSU and LSU - five years each) and one NFL team (2 years) and 2) at each stop a major retool/rebuild was needed.

In his one year at Toledo before taking the DC position with the Browns under Bill Belichick, the Rockets went 9-2. The previous 5 years Toledo had been a perennial .500 team. When Coach Saban took over Michigan State, George Perles had led them through a long career of mediocrity and little question it was a full rebuild from the jump. LSU? DeNardo took the flagship program in the state of Louisiana, a state loaded with talent, and burned it to the ground in his last two seasons. And in four years Coach Saban delivered a national title there, granted there were bumps and hiccups along the way. NFL and the Dolphins? I think the future looked bright there after two years and Wayne Huizenga, the owner, had seen enough movement in a positive direction he wanted Coach Saban to stay.

What I’m getting at is this: AI is simply a tool. It can give you the answers it thinks you want. It doesn’t necessarily give you the context or rationale for those answers. Not all head coaching experiences are “created equal”. We understand that here as educated fans of the game. AI? Not in many cases.

This isn’t written as some form of indictment of Coach DeBoer. Truthfully, for me the jury is still out. However, that doesn’t mean I don’t want him to succeed. To the contrary, I do for these reasons. First, I think he is a man of high character. I think at times he is honest to a fault, but that is neither here nor there. Next, I think he is a quality coach. Is he good enough to withstand the rigors of the SEC year after year and the scrutiny that comes with this job? Only time will tell. And finally, Coach DeBoer isn’t going anywhere in the near future unless he decides he wants to leave. Period. End of statement. Fair or not, Alabama coaches will be compared to whomever fans see as the pinnacle. I’m sure Bryant was compared to Wade or Thomas. Others like Perkins, Stallings, et al (including Saban) had Bryant’s shadow hanging over them. And each had their own set of circumstances and situations to deal with that made the job that much more difficult when compared to the previous coach. Much of that is same for Coach DeBoer. Yep it is a totally different world from what Coach Saban had to deal with. But Coach DeBoer wasn’t blindsided by that. He knew that when he took the job.

Good and fair thoughts.

AI did miss CNS's age when he was hired at Bama. 55 instead of 49. Also, I'm aware AI can be manipulated to answer leading questions. However, I think the questions I posted were mostly fact-based, which showed CNS's superior experience as a coach coming to Bama.

So, the fact CNS was 6 years older with an extra 66 games (at the collegiate level, plus the 2 in the NFL) is even more evidence for being patient with CKD.

Also, as you correctly point out, CNS made his bank rebuilding teams whose previous records at MSU and LSU were around .500. That's a fair point, but it also means CNS was objectively a more seasoned coach even during that part of his career.

And I think everyone (both those rooting for CKD and obviously those who aren't) believes CNS was/is > than CKD. I guess until he runs off a string of NC that debate will never happen.

So, I'll fall back to this conclusion: if we are trying to compare how CNS rarely had teams that looked unprepared (especially later in his career), that really isn't a fair comparison for CKD because he's objectively less experienced and less successful than CNS.

None of this means we should just shrug our shoulders or ignore some of these games where we didn't look prepared or got blown out. No Bama fan should ever accept that!

But, my point is CKD is always going to be found wanting if we compare him to Saban or Bryant.

The fairer debate would be to compare his record and successes as a D-1 head coach against some of his contemporaries in the game right now.

This brings us right back to 4 Q's post that asked us "If not CKD, then who?" If it's not Kirby or Coach Nike/Lanning, then who else could we expect to come in and do much better than CKD?

IMO, the next great college football coach is being molded in the fire of NIL and portal challenges even as we speak.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Good and fair thoughts.

AI did miss CNS's age when he was hired at Bama. 55 instead of 49. Also, I'm aware AI can be manipulated to answer leading questions. However, I think the questions I posted were mostly fact-based, which showed CNS's superior experience as a coach coming to Bama.

So, the fact CNS was 6 years older with an extra 66 games (at the collegiate level, plus the 2 in the NFL) is even more evidence for being patient with CKD.

Also, as you correctly point out, CNS made his bank rebuilding teams whose previous records at MSU and LSU were around .500. That's a fair point, but it also means CNS was objectively a more seasoned coach even during that part of his career.

And I think everyone (both those rooting for CKD and obviously those who aren't) believes CNS was/is > than CKD. I guess until he runs off a string of NC that debate will never happen.

So, I'll fall back to this conclusion: if we are trying to compare how CNS rarely had teams that looked unprepared (especially later in his career), that really isn't a fair comparison for CKD because he's objectively less experienced and less successful than CNS.

None of this means we should just shrug our shoulders or ignore some of these games where we didn't look prepared or got blown out. No Bama fan should ever accept that!

But, my point is CKD is always going to be found wanting if we compare him to Saban or Bryant.

The fairer debate would be to compare his record and successes as a D-1 head coach against some of his contemporaries in the game right now.

This brings us right back to 4 Q's post that asked us "If not CDK, then who?" If it's not Kirby or Coach Nike, then who else could we expect to come in and do much better than CKD?

IMO, the next great college football coach is being molded in the fire of NIL and portal challenges even as we speak.

Take away the two years Kirby finally finished the job and won the NC, is he really that much better than a Dabo Sweeney? Both seem to have had a "run" where they took brought home NC's but since there's been a decline, Clemson's being more severe than UGA's. But neither have returned to look even remotely close to their two title years.

 

[tusks_n_raider]

Take away the two years Kirby finally finished the job and won the NC, is he really that much better than a Dabo Sweeney? Both seem to have had a "run" where they took brought home NC's but since there's been a decline, Clemson's being more severe than UGA's. But neither have returned to look even remotely close to their two title years.

I don’t care for Kirby at all but imo he’s much better than Dabo.

Dabo in is a terrible conference and his record the last 3 years is 26-14

Kirby is in the SEC and UGA has won back to back SEC Championships and their record in the last 3 years is 36-6 with almost 3 Straight Top 5 finishes.

UGA has slipped a bit from their Back to Back NC’s but they seem to be in a much better place than Clemson right now.

 

[DzynKingRTR]

Take away the two years Kirby finally finished the job and won the NC, is he really that much better than a Dabo Sweeney? Both seem to have had a "run" where they took brought home NC's but since there's been a decline, Clemson's being more severe than UGA's. But neither have returned to look even remotely close to their two title years.

before Kirby won a title his record looked a lot like Richt's. There were even memes about it.

 

[BamaMoon]

FWIW, I too do NOT like Kirby. I'll give him the credit for taking what he learned under CNS and making the process work at Georgia. He didn't really have to build much...just refine.

Same too for Lanning. Oregon has a built in advantage. All the former West Cost powers, including USC aren't regional rivals and they play ball in a power conference now. And, like Cignetti at Indiana, I think Lanning tries to mimic CNS's "mad personality" so much to the point it looks a little fake at times.

My take as of July 8, if Bama discovered a trillion dollars and could hire anybody they want, I keep DeBoer and spend more on NIL and retention.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I don’t care for Kirby at all but imo he’s much better than Dabo.

Dabo in is a terrible conference and his record the last 3 years is 26-14

Kirby is in the SEC and UGA has won back to back SEC Championships and their record in the last 3 years is 36-6 with almost 3 Straight Top 5 finishes.

UGA has slipped a bit from their Back to Back NC’s but they seem to be in a much better place than Clemson right now.

IMO, they fall into the same category of success and are following the same pattern. At one point several years ago Dabo's winning % was over 80% like Kirby's, but he's also coached 102 more games and 7 more years than Kirby. So Kirby hasn't had enough years go by to see if he can keep the program from dropping any further than where it was since 2022 compared to Dabo. I wouldn't be surprised if after seven years pass Kirby's winning % is closer to where Dabo's is, in the high 70's.

 

[mlh]

Two things that aren't factored into the comparisons of CNS and CKD are NIL and the transfer portal. Those things have changed the landscape of college football so much that it's almost like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[BamaMoon]

Two things that aren't factored into the comparisons of CNS and CKD are NIL and the transfer portal. Those things have changed the landscape of college football so much that it's almost like comparing apples to oranges.

Truth!

It's that very thing that basically drove CNS away from the game!

 

[NoNC4Tubs]

Two things that aren't factored into the comparisons of CNS and CKD are NIL and the transfer portal. Those things have changed the landscape of college football so much that it's almost like comparing apples to oranges.

EXACTLY!!!